12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Poor Loggy. He had gone so many days with nothing but love.



Today was haters fest.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

Poor Loggy. He had gone so many days with nothing but love.

Today was haters fest.

Thats the way of the interwebs.

Try dealing with Leliana hate. Its annoying to say the least, but let me cull some people off the Facebook friends.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ TJPags. Ok, you have an opinion, no one is faulting you for that. You are tired of discussing it, accusing us of ciricular reasoning (when I could same the same to those who argue against him, but avoid doing that). That's all nice. So may I ask what you are doing here?

[testing123]

Zjarcal wrote...
Today was haters fest.

I saw my advantage and I took it!  That's what heroes do. =P

edit: memory fail.

Modifié par jvee, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Thats the way of the interwebs.

Try dealing with Leliana hate. Its annoying to say the least, but let me cull some people off the Facebook friends.

Oh I know. When it comes to haters this is all I have to say:

Modifié par Zjarcal, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I won't pretend I entirely understand Maric. He frustrates me because he seems to be the same man at the beginning of Stolen Throne all the way through to the end of The Calling. 

I sort of felt that too.  At the beginning of 'The Calling' it feels a little like he's the same character he was 'pre-hardening.'  Hmm... that's an unfortunate phrase.  Even with everything he's been through he definitely remains a a sort of easy-going, charismatic figure that inspires everyone who follows him, including the ladies.  He managed to woo an assassin meant to murder him for ****'s sake!  

I mean it's one thing to feel bad that something terrible had to be done and another thing to regret it. If Maric thinks that he *would* have been strong enough to bring Katriel to justice, or that he had some other plan to prove the rebellion was strong despite sparing Katriel, then he has some leeway for regret. But if he agrees with why it had to be done, then why regret? To me, regret means having done something that, given the circumstances that you knew at the time, you feel you should have chosen differently. 

Personally, I was pleased to see he felt regret over past decisions, it made him more relatable and added depth. After he killed Katriel, he spent much of the rest of that book 'strictly business.'  It gives him the resolve to murder the 'Orlesian boot-lickers' and presumably, rule with a firmer hand.  But it was nice to see he retained some of his humanity, the story doesn't need two Loghains running around.  (I expect that last sentence to upset some people.) 

And see, I thought that Maric could still retain his humanity/goodness whatever you want to call it, and still not carry that around as a regret. I thought it would add more strength to his character, so that *next time* he would see a problem like that coming a little sooner. Or that next time, he *would* be seen as having the strength to carry out such justice. He didn't need to be another Loghain to accomplish that.

If the Landsmeet had demanded his death in order for the civil war to stop and for my character to gain the Ferelden armies, then I would have executed him.

If the roles were reversed do you think Loghain would spare you?  Interesting to ponder.

Probably not. And I wouldn't expect him to. It's why I don't get all bent out of shape that he tried to kill me, and that he would order my execution.

Monica21 wrote...
The first time I heard it I really didn't understand what he meant because the game didn't do a very good job telling the story of the rebellion and I hadn't read the books.

The first time I heard it, I knew about the occupation, and I knew that he was considered a Hero for the part he played in it. When he started going on about 'how dare you judge me', I couldn't know exactly what he was talking about, I just felt like there was another part of the story that I didn't know, and that I didn't want to execute him if he really was sincere about trying to save the country.

In my first playthrough I did kill him anyway, to keep Alistair, but I decided that if I was going to choose to execute someone, I had better be willing to make that blow myself. The second playthrough I had intended to kill him, but then was convinced otherwise during the Landsmeet.

[Sarah1281]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I really wish I could have a conversation with Loghain as to why he would follow Maric into the Fade - Maric failed to inspire me.

Maybe he knows someone has to clean up after Maric?

I am so glad I was not drinking anything when I read that

Seriously, imagine well-meaning but not-forward-thinking book Maric wandering the Fade unsupervised where Katriel, Rowan, and possibly Fiona are. Terrified yet? 

[Costin_Razvan]

Ouch.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Yet any time someone says something derogatory about him, they get flamed or called a troll.

I've said before - Gaider and the other writers/developers may have MEANT to make him a deep, conflicting character, but as far as the game goes, all they actually accomplished was to make him appear as a paranoid, power hungry madman.

But, you know, sorry for having an opinion. 

Nobody said you can't have an opinion and yours is obviously different from mine. The point you keep missing, by purpose or just out of misunderstanding, I'm not sure, is that none of his defenders claim that he's not the antagonist. Of course he is. If you see all of his actions in black and white though, then there's no point "discussing" it, is there? You're not even bothering to try. You just jump in with an opinion and jump back out out again. That's hardly worth anyone's time.

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

Yet any time someone says something derogatory about him, they get flamed or called a troll.

I can't speak for everyone on this thread, but for me, I don't mind listening and considering and discussing and debating. But there is a difference between someone who comes in here and actually wants to discuss an opposing viewpoint/opinion, and someone who wants to say "I just stopped by this thread to say that I hate Loghain, but I don't feel like arguing it, and/or you are all blind/idiots, so don't bother responding." That is trollish.

But, you know, sorry for having an opinion. 

That's fine that you have an opinion. Do you actually want to discuss it? I get the distinct impression that you don't, and that you just stopped by to be abrasive.

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...
I mean it's one thing to feel bad that something terrible had to be done and another thing to regret it. If Maric thinks that he *would* have been strong enough to bring Katriel to justice, or that he had some other plan to prove the rebellion was strong despite sparing Katriel, then he has some leeway for regret. But if he agrees with why it had to be done, then why regret? To me, regret means having done something that, given the circumstances that you knew at the time, you feel you should have chosen differently.

My memory could be fuzzy, and I no longer have the book at hand, but I seem to remember him being pretty clear that he wishes he hadn't done it.  I think he explicitly called it a mistake.

And see, I thought that Maric could still retain his humanity/goodness whatever you want to call it, and still not carry that around as a regret. I thought it would add more strength to his character, so that *next time* he would see a problem like that coming a little sooner. Or that next time, he *would* be seen as having the strength to carry out such justice. He didn't need to be another Loghain to accomplish that.

He murdered the woman he loved.  I imagine he would regret it and second guess it no matter what.  I don't think that experiencing those feelings makes him weak.  He has obviously been a successful king, even when parting from Loghain's logic from time to time.  The second book doesn't really deal with it, but I suppose there is reason to believe he has incorporated that lesson into his rule, then again, it is entirely possible that he has rejected the style completely. 

Honestly... I think Loghain carries around a lot of regrets as well.  Don't you think he wonders what his life might be like if he had chosen to pursue Rowan rather than completely shutting down emotionally, enslaved to his 'duty'?  You think he doesn't realize that if he had told Maric how he felt about her Maric wouldn't have found a way for the two of them to be together?  Loghain is a truly depressing character, he's spent his entire life in devotion to duty at the expense of experiencing humanity.  His sense of duty goes so far I wonder if he could ever let himself truly love anything.  

Modifié par jvee, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[CalJones]

Silly Orlesian tart had it coming.





(from http://tribble-of-doom.deviantart.com/)



I have to say Maric irritated me a great deal in the books - getting involved with Katriel when he could have had Rowan, who was awesome, then running off to the Deep Roads and boning yet another Orlesian elf. Honestly, my view is that Maric was only a "great" king because he had Loghain. On his own, he would be, well, dead, I suppose.



I think you're right about Loghain and his duty. I think one of the reasons he goes off the rails is because he loses the humanising influences of those he has been closest to - Maric, Rowan and later, his wife. Fereldan is, without doubt, the love of his life, but everyone needs people to keep them grounded.

[Burritos]

Loghain > Alistair. I can't blame Loghain for his fault's but he was paranoid.

[phaonica]

The "You can't handle the truth" speech was mentioned earlier, and I realized I'd never seen that movie all the way through, before, so I just watched it. It was really good. You could definitely draw a lot of comparisons between the antagonist of the movie and Loghain... I don't know if that's a good or bad thing...

jvee wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I mean it's one thing to feel bad that something terrible had to be done and another thing to regret it. If Maric thinks that he *would* have been strong enough to bring Katriel to justice, or that he had some other plan to prove the rebellion was strong despite sparing Katriel, then he has some leeway for regret. But if he agrees with why it had to be done, then why regret? To me, regret means having done something that, given the circumstances that you knew at the time, you feel you should have chosen differently.

My memory could be fuzzy, and I no longer have the book at hand, but I seem to remember him being pretty clear that he wishes he hadn't done it.  I think he explicitly called it a mistake.

That's my point, though, that he does regret, that he does think it was a mistake, yet at the same time, he doesn't offer what the solution should have been. There's a difference between wishing it didn't have to be done, and wishing he hadn't done it. If it was a mistake, what was the better answer?

He murdered the woman he loved.  I imagine he would regret it and second guess it no matter what.  

I guess I'm thinking about it in the context of some of my own characters decisions about what she might second guess and what she would actually regret. My character gave up Alistair to spare Loghain. It was a risk. If Loghain had turned out to be unhelpful, insincere, if he had continued to try to kill or sabotage her, or whatever, while she would think that her risk hadn't paid off, she would still not regret it, because she believed she was making the correct decision at the time. On the other hand, my character did the DR against her better judgment. She felt that it was incredibly risky, yet she decided to do it anyway. If *that* turns out to be a horrible disaster that causes death and destruction, she will regret, because she didn't take the path she thought was correct, she took a different path for personal reasons.

I don't think that experiencing those feelings makes him weak.  He has obviously been a successful king, even when parting from Loghain's logic from time to time.  The second book doesn't really deal with it, but I suppose there is reason to believe he has incorporated that lesson into his rule, then again, it is entirely possible that he has rejected the style completely. 

I suppose he was a successful king, he did manage (with some help, which is fine) to reclaim and hold Ferelden. I assume that in the space between ST and Calling, and between Calling and Origins, that he must have been awesome, though from some of the things he says and does, it's a little hard for me to imagine it.

Honestly... I think Loghain carries around a lot of regrets as well.  Don't you think he wonders what his life might be like if he had chosen to pursue Rowan rather than completely shutting down emotionally, enslaved to his 'duty'?  You think he doesn't realize that if he had told Maric how he felt about her Maric wouldn't have found a way for the two of them to be together?  Loghain is a truly depressing character, he's spent his entire life in devotion to duty at the expense of experiencing humanity. 

 I don't know if he carries a lot of regrets. I'm sure he thinks of it, once in a while, of what might have been. But at the same time, Loghain's feelings for Rowan are not more important than what needs to be done to protect Ferelden. Maric's feelings for Katriel are not as important as what was going to be demanded of the leader of the rebellion.

 His sense of duty goes so far I wonder if he could ever let himself truly love anything.  

I suppose that would just depend on whether you would still define it as love if a person is capable of putting their country before their friends/family/love/personal interests. Maybe it's odd, but that quality is exactly one of the reasons that my character is attracted to him.

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...
I suppose that would just depend on whether you would still define it as love if a person is capable of putting their country before their friends/family/love/personal interests. Maybe it's odd, but that quality is exactly one of the reasons that my character is attracted to him.

See, this is a big difference. For you (or your character) this kind of badassery is attractive, for me it's repulsive.
Even if I could be convinced that something Loghain suggests doing (sacrificing a village for the greater good) is a smart option, even if I could be brought to follow his orders, I would hate his guts. I'm human after all.

I also doubt that in reality someone would spare Loghain. You can't look inside his head, you can't read two prequel books to have an opinion of him. All you have is this stranger in front of you, a man you maybe knew personally for about 2 hours in your life, a legend ... but what kind of person is he? And another stranger comes in and suggests recruiting him. And you would do it? And if your decisions turns out wrong, you'd not even regret it? I have a hard time believing that.

You as a player may have a thing for Loghain's badassery but you also know a lot more about him than any your characters do.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[CalJones]

You might not be able to spare him. For me, it's really the only option, for mercy's sake if nothing else. The fact that he is also a war hero who has done so much for his country only adds to the argument.

More to the point, Riordan is not merely a stranger - he's a senior Grey Warden - your superior (even if indirectly), and a man who has far more experience of the Wardens than you do. If he, who has been tortured in Howe's dungeon for who knows how long, can suggest sparing Loghain, then I have no reason to disagree.

I find Alistair's immature craving for revenge far more repulsive than anything Loghain has done.

[Monica21]

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I suppose that would just depend on whether you would still define it as love if a person is capable of putting their country before their friends/family/love/personal interests. Maybe it's odd, but that quality is exactly one of the reasons that my character is attracted to him.

See, this is a big difference. For you (or your character) this kind of badassery is attractive, for me it's repulsive.
Even if I could be convinced that something Loghain suggests doing (sacrificing a village for the greater good) is a smart option, even if I could be brought to follow his orders, I would hate his guts. I'm human after all.

I also doubt that in reality someone would spare Loghain. You can't look inside his head, you can't read two prequel books to have an opinion of him. All you have is this stranger in front of you, a man you maybe knew personally for about 2 hours in your life, a legend ... but what kind of person is he? And another stranger comes in and suggests recruiting him. And you would do it? And if your decisions turns out wrong, you'd not even regret it? I have a hard time believing that.

You as a player may have a thing for Loghain's badassery but you also know a lot more about him than any your characters do.

My opinion is that the whole point of being a military leader is that you have to do things for the greater good and those things often require sacrifice. As a Warden, your job is the same. I didn't need to know him personally and I don't assume my character does. The stranger, who is also your senior Warden, has a personal reason to see Loghain dead, but instead of agreeing with it, sees value in not only experience but in numbers.

At the time I make the decision, my character doesn't know that she isn't going to see Alistair again. Considering he's the one who told me at when I first met him that Wardens often do whatever it takes, my character can easily think that she can talk to him later and convince him that this is for the best.

Loghain yielded and didn't ask for mercy. He knew that he would likely die if he lost the duel. He knew the cost and faced it. At the time I spare him, I don't have a reason to think he's not going to live up to his word. He may try to kill me, but he doesn't have anything to gain at that point.

[Addai]

(Husband posting)

My wife doesn't like it, but I've said a number of times "The Best days of the Therin line are long over".   After reading the books especially, I really can't buy into the Arthurian myth, that Eamon seems to push.   Maric was an OK king with lots and lots of help from Loghain and Rowan.   But even "When he's hardened" I still think he kind of sucks.   (When you factor in his brooding).

When you take the entire line into context, with Cailan's foolishness, some of Alistairs problems etc.    I tend to see the last really good Theirin leader as Maric's mom, the rebel queen.    And well I see the books as actually lending credit with the idea of starting a new line later on as far as the Landsmeet goes.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Sarah1281]

I also doubt that in reality someone would spare Loghain. You can't look inside his head, you can't read two prequel books to have an opinion of him. All you have is this stranger in front of you, a man you maybe knew personally for about 2 hours in your life, a legend ... but what kind of person is he? And another stranger comes in and suggests recruiting him. And you would do it? And if your decisions turns out wrong, you'd not even regret it? I have a hard time believing that.

See, you're assuming that everyone who spares Loghain has read the books. If you spare Loghain multiple times than you know that he turns out to not betray you but the first time you do it? Then all the extra info you have are a few cutscenes that show exactly when Loghain retreated, him not being happy about sending Zevran but doing it anyway, being confronted by Teagan, and not wanting to talk about the Orlesians with Anora. Those are hardly universally positive things that, had the Warden known about, would have changed her mind.

Edit: 

See, this is a big difference. For you (or your character) this kind of badassery is attractive, for me it's repulsive.
Even if I could be convinced that something Loghain suggests doing (sacrificing a village for the greater good) is a smart option, even if I could be brought to follow his orders, I would hate his guts. I'm human after all.

Also, while you may hate how Loghain goes about putting things like duty and Ferelden above his personal feelings, it's not like he's the only one in game to do this. What do you think Alistair breaking up with someone who isn't his Queen is? What do you think him insisting on doing the US is? Granted, if you're in a romance his feelings about you mean that he won't back down but he really doesn't want to die and is doing so because duty requires it to save Ferelden. If you turn down the DR and US yourself then you either have a suicidal character or you also fall into the category of 'putting duty before your feelings', particularly if you have a LI and plenty to live for.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 septembre 2010 - 02:30 .

[CalJones]

@ Addai's husband - I like you.



@ Sarah - couldn't agree more. I found Loghain to be an intriguing character before I read the books. I actually bought the books (despite normally turning my nose up at any kind of tie-in fiction) because I wanted to find out more about him and was rather disappointed that he didn't feature much in the Calling.

It's difficult to pick up all the nuances on a first playthrough and I'll admit he died first time around, but from second playthrough I pretty much decided Loghain was made of win and that was that.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
It's difficult to pick up all the nuances on a first playthrough and I'll admit he died first time around, but from second playthrough I pretty much decided Loghain was made of win and that was that.

I would agree here. Believe me, I go to great lengths to shape my favourite character to make him fit my tastes, too.
I'm aware I might even view him a tad different than his creator does. I suppose, you're doing the same thing with your favourite character. It's still fun to discuss Loghain with you.

I want to add: I'm German, so my reluctance to trust Loghain or Riordan might be a cultural thing. We Germans are said to be very mistrustful and cold towards strangers, so the argument "Riordan is a Grey Warden and your superior" doesn't do anything for me.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 septembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[CalJones]

Oooh, was that a barb there, young lady?



To be fair, I actually liked him in my first playthrough, but I knew sparing him at Landsmeet would mean losing Alistair, and I didn't want that to happen. But my god, that execution cutscene just horrified me. After that, there was no way he was dying again. Alistair could go swivel.

[Sarah1281]

I still have yet to read the books (I will, though) and I didn't know about any of Loghain's dialogue or background but my first playthrough the only reason I didn't spare him was because I was playing a HNF with designs on the throne and realized it wasn't going to happen if Loghain were alive. Had I been playing a HNM or any other origin, he would have survived then. As it happened, that was pushed back to my second playthrough.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
I also doubt that in reality someone would spare Loghain.

I would. In fact, when I spared him on my first playthrough he was a stranger to me, as I did not read the books (until my 4rth playthrough).
 
Of course I do not fault people for not trusting him. But I modestly believe that I am a good judge of character, coupled with what others have said on Loghain including Eamon, and so relied on that to trust him. And it paid off.

[Giggles_Manically]

I spared him for the first time on my Mage run.

Alistair did not like my mage at all, but he still became king with Anora.
I was actually awed by how deep he was, and what he said in the end.

I would also spare him in real life. Its one thing to kill a foe in a fight, its another to decapitate a man who surrendered to you, then to kill him in front of his daughther. All to satisfy anothers bloodlust.
I do belive that no matter what you do, you can still try to fix it.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .