I assume it was just budget. They probably blew a lot on Awakening and Leliana's Song, whereas simpler DLCs with our Origins companions would have been infinitely better.
Arrival was pretty lame- just an advert for ME3, and not having your squad sucks.
Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age
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Irish Guerrilla
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#9652
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 10:09
Costin_Razvan
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Arrival was pretty lame- just an advert for ME3, and not having your squad sucks.
Arrival does still demolish all the DLCs of Origins put together.
I assume it was just budget.
I don't necesarily think so. Time is really an issue, you can't make an epic game in one year.
I still maintain Dragon Age 2 is far better then Origins ( combat especially ) but....well it could have been a vastly better game.
Knight: Harbinger is just fail while the conversation with Sovereign was....one of the most horryfing things I saw in a game.
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2011 - 12:54 .
#9653
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 01:31
Morwen Eledhwen
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![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
#9654
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 02:16
KnightofPhoenix
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Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: Harbinger is just fail while the conversation with Sovereign was....one of the most horryfing things I saw in a game.
I practically memorized the convo with Sovereign by heart. Virmire was awesome. It's the equivalent of Leviathan in Kotor.
#9655
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 02:35
CalJones
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Sovereign's voice was far cooler, too. And yeah, whilst I like ME 2 (and appreciate the Garrus squee moments), ME has far more holy s**t moments. I like both games, really - they're different, but both good.
Whereas DAII...well, it has some exceptionally cool elements. But a lot of things that could have been so much better and some things that I found completely inexplicable. (And no Loghain!)
It does look as though DA3 will be in Orlais, going by what Bodahn says, and the fact the Chantry HQ is there and that's where the big stuff is going down. So I'm wondering if we'll get a little cameo from our favourite ex-teyrn, if he's alive?
Whereas DAII...well, it has some exceptionally cool elements. But a lot of things that could have been so much better and some things that I found completely inexplicable. (And no Loghain!)
It does look as though DA3 will be in Orlais, going by what Bodahn says, and the fact the Chantry HQ is there and that's where the big stuff is going down. So I'm wondering if we'll get a little cameo from our favourite ex-teyrn, if he's alive?
#9656
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:02
Addai
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I'm guessing Loghain will not make any appearance again, unless maybe in the new novel, which I bet will also be in Orlais.
Huh- Sovereign made no impression on me whatsoever. I didn't like ME1 much. ME2 is better. But I was playing a bit of Origins this weekend and unlike some people have said, it didn't feel like a chore going back to Origins combat. In fact I much prefer it. Granted, I had to bring Wynne along for Haste (playing a 2H AW), but there is more a sense you're actually wielding a weapon, and the finishing moves are far more badass than exploding body parts. They should have kept everything and only sped up the warrior attacks and pathfinding responsiveness.
Huh- Sovereign made no impression on me whatsoever. I didn't like ME1 much. ME2 is better. But I was playing a bit of Origins this weekend and unlike some people have said, it didn't feel like a chore going back to Origins combat. In fact I much prefer it. Granted, I had to bring Wynne along for Haste (playing a 2H AW), but there is more a sense you're actually wielding a weapon, and the finishing moves are far more badass than exploding body parts. They should have kept everything and only sped up the warrior attacks and pathfinding responsiveness.
#9657
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:07
Costin_Razvan
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: Harbinger is just fail while the conversation with Sovereign was....one of the most horryfing things I saw in a game.
I practically memorized the convo with Sovereign by heart. Virmire was awesome. It's the equivalent of Leviathan in Kotor.
You exist because we allow it...and you will end because we demand it! I have made quite a few trailer/tribute clips but Sovereign voice makes my latest one the best.
Oh and...the full quotes:
Addai: Just
. Seriously watch my lastest clip and repeat that...and you will baffle me for good. Though I suppose if one checked spolers for ME1+2 Sovereign wouldn't make such an impression.As for Origins Combat:
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2011 - 03:15 .
#9658
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:23
Addai
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It's a silly space opera- nothing much made an impression. It's fun for the pew-pew and a couple of the characters, but that's it.
#9659
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 04:34
Costin_Razvan
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That can pretty much describe Origins as well, except replace space opera with medieval fantasy drama in the wording.
#9660
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 05:59
Addai
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I find the characters in Origins far more compelling. Also, I'm not much for spaceship stuff.
#9661
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 06:56
KnightofPhoenix
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So far, Kotor is like a mix of space opera and fantasy. Pretty cool. Nice characters as well.
#9662
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 07:50
Addai
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DA2 failed to capture me, either, and if they continue to take a more cartoonish approach, my interest in the franchise will dwindle. The Origins story only really grabbed me because it walked the line between a dark, mature fantasy and something more cheesy/ spoofed. A lot more of the humor in DA2 is in break-the-4th-wall gags, and the more modern fonts and symbolism and the like are more of a comic book feel than a Song of Ice and Fire, serious fantasy feel. I would prefer to see them take the story more seriously, as well as get back to presenting multi-dimensional antagonist characters.
Modifié par Addai67, 02 mai 2011 - 07:54 .
#9663
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 07:59
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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I certainly prefered DAO to ME 1&2 on alot of fronts, though I agree alot more effort went into ME DLCs, which were certainly better. I like Space/sci-fi rpgs, but I really hated the controls and many game elements in the ME series.
Not really looking forward to the OTT combat of DA2, though.
Not really looking forward to the OTT combat of DA2, though.
#9664
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 08:16
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Addai67 wrote...
So several of you are Sims players, interesting. I used to play Sim City because I have a bit of an interest in city planning, but I couldn't even do that for very long. Tedious. The one negative thing I've heard others say about the medieval one is that once your quests are done, you can't continue to play the kingdom.
Like I said, I still haven't moved past Sims1 with all it's expansions. With all the extra downloaded skins, objects, ect, plus 8 ginormous neighborhoods, vacation areas, downtown and magic town, ect....
I find I never run out of new, amusing, and twisted ideas for Sim households. Or new and twisted ways to conduct their daily lives. I still giggle when the chief of police, a senator, a circus clown, and a mad scientist sit around that big old bong...errr...I mean, bubble blower, and laugh themselves stupid in their underwear while a clown, a mime, a party wh*re, and Drew Carey raid my fridge and clog my toilets.
The game was a freakin masterpiece.
#9665
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:02
Morwen Eledhwen
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I find I never run out of new, amusing, and twisted ideas for Sim households. Or new and twisted ways to conduct their daily lives. I still giggle when the chief of police, a senator, a circus clown, and a mad scientist sit around that big old bong...errr...I mean, bubble blower, and laugh themselves stupid in their underwear while a clown, a mime, a party wh*re, and Drew Carey raid my fridge and clog my toilets.
The game was a freakin masterpiece.
Is there a Skadi's Dungeon O' Love?
#9666
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 01:28
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I find I never run out of new, amusing, and twisted ideas for Sim households. Or new and twisted ways to conduct their daily lives. I still giggle when the chief of police, a senator, a circus clown, and a mad scientist sit around that big old bong...errr...I mean, bubble blower, and laugh themselves stupid in their underwear while a clown, a mime, a party wh*re, and Drew Carey raid my fridge and clog my toilets.
The game was a freakin masterpiece.
Is there a Skadi's Dungeon O' Love?
One whole section of my 5th neighborhood was dedicated to that concept.
#9667
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 02:31
KnightofPhoenix
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Kotor had more interesting plots / issues than I remember. I always found Kashyyyk to be boring 7 years ago, but it's actually pretty interesting and properly presents what I see as 2 not so good choices.
On one hand you have Chuundar, one of the few wookies to be willing to collaborate with outsiders, overthrows his weak father Freyyr and establishes an alliance with Czerka corporation, itself a vital ally of the Sith Empire, which gives him weapons in exchange for him selling some of his own people to slavery in secret. He claims, and not without reason, that his way saved more lives and kept slavery to a minimum. He claims to be the bringer of new ways, and taught his people the galactic lingua franca (so they can be better slaves), but really ends up being a Czerka puppet who is cowing his people with fear.
On the otherhand you have Freyyr who wants to reclaim his position and overthrow his son by showing an old sacred blade that is supposedly going to compensate for his weakness. Apaprently it provides a great deal of legitimacy and symbolic power. He keeps babling about traditions, but wishes to fight the invaders and free his people from slavery. Of course, he blames all the world's problems on outsiders and not his own people's weakness, cultural, martial, economical and otherwise.
This for me was not as clear cut as say, Harrowmont and Bhelen. Freyyr may want to free his people, but his fixation on sacred traditions is pretty much going to keep the wookies a primitive species bordering on barbarism and always a victim of foreign invaders. Chundaar is trying something different, but really keeps his people in a mentality of fear and submission to both him and outsiders. Both suck. Ideally, a leader should have had Chundaar's open mindedness to foreign tech and mentality (and teaching the language for something other than being better slaves) and Freyyr's resolve to maintain independence and the honor of the people.
So it all solely came down to what benefits my PC. Since he didn't know he was Revan yet, he tried to be diplomatic and solve the conflict peacefully, but Chundaar had to be an idiot and attack and the other idiot Freyyr got the throne. This then leads to the Wookies rising against Czerka and kicking them out. Since my PC at the time was sort of with the Republic, a blow to Czerka means a blow to the Sith. But if my PC had known he was Revan, he would have kept the useful tool Chundaar.
Eh well, since his idiot wookie companion Zalbaar (Freyyr's second son. Idiocy runs in the family) decided to ask for the sacred blade which provides great legitimacy to any aspiring leader to be given to him, my PC can always give it to another tool to be his puppet.
Anyways, cool stuff I thought. It was a real historical issue particularly in Africa, where many chieftains collaborated with Imperialist powers (if they were not put there by them) including in the slave trade. Some like Samori Toure did both. Sold some into slavery for weapons and alliance with British, which he used to fight the French. Lost, but still. The presentation of the issue may not have been as good or explosive as Onderon in Kotor 2, but I thought that at the core, it was as interesting if not as contemporary as the Onderon question (specifically "globalization").
On one hand you have Chuundar, one of the few wookies to be willing to collaborate with outsiders, overthrows his weak father Freyyr and establishes an alliance with Czerka corporation, itself a vital ally of the Sith Empire, which gives him weapons in exchange for him selling some of his own people to slavery in secret. He claims, and not without reason, that his way saved more lives and kept slavery to a minimum. He claims to be the bringer of new ways, and taught his people the galactic lingua franca (so they can be better slaves), but really ends up being a Czerka puppet who is cowing his people with fear.
On the otherhand you have Freyyr who wants to reclaim his position and overthrow his son by showing an old sacred blade that is supposedly going to compensate for his weakness. Apaprently it provides a great deal of legitimacy and symbolic power. He keeps babling about traditions, but wishes to fight the invaders and free his people from slavery. Of course, he blames all the world's problems on outsiders and not his own people's weakness, cultural, martial, economical and otherwise.
This for me was not as clear cut as say, Harrowmont and Bhelen. Freyyr may want to free his people, but his fixation on sacred traditions is pretty much going to keep the wookies a primitive species bordering on barbarism and always a victim of foreign invaders. Chundaar is trying something different, but really keeps his people in a mentality of fear and submission to both him and outsiders. Both suck. Ideally, a leader should have had Chundaar's open mindedness to foreign tech and mentality (and teaching the language for something other than being better slaves) and Freyyr's resolve to maintain independence and the honor of the people.
So it all solely came down to what benefits my PC. Since he didn't know he was Revan yet, he tried to be diplomatic and solve the conflict peacefully, but Chundaar had to be an idiot and attack and the other idiot Freyyr got the throne. This then leads to the Wookies rising against Czerka and kicking them out. Since my PC at the time was sort of with the Republic, a blow to Czerka means a blow to the Sith. But if my PC had known he was Revan, he would have kept the useful tool Chundaar.
Eh well, since his idiot wookie companion Zalbaar (Freyyr's second son. Idiocy runs in the family) decided to ask for the sacred blade which provides great legitimacy to any aspiring leader to be given to him, my PC can always give it to another tool to be his puppet.
Anyways, cool stuff I thought. It was a real historical issue particularly in Africa, where many chieftains collaborated with Imperialist powers (if they were not put there by them) including in the slave trade. Some like Samori Toure did both. Sold some into slavery for weapons and alliance with British, which he used to fight the French. Lost, but still. The presentation of the issue may not have been as good or explosive as Onderon in Kotor 2, but I thought that at the core, it was as interesting if not as contemporary as the Onderon question (specifically "globalization").
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mai 2011 - 02:46 .
#9668
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:36
CalJones
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That's an interesting way of looking at it.
I generally like to play "good" characters and the problem I had with KotOR was that the moral choices are rather too black and white. You can be a nice guy or a total dick (such as the way you treat the widow on Tatooine). I wouldn't mind playing evil if it was the machievellian sort but I'm not much one for kicking sand in people's faces.
As it is, my two favourite characters from that game are morally ambiguous - Canderous, who is ruthless but holds honour and loyalty very highly and Jolee, the "grey" Jedi. I am glad Bioware's newer games offer you more grey choices for the player character.
I generally like to play "good" characters and the problem I had with KotOR was that the moral choices are rather too black and white. You can be a nice guy or a total dick (such as the way you treat the widow on Tatooine). I wouldn't mind playing evil if it was the machievellian sort but I'm not much one for kicking sand in people's faces.
As it is, my two favourite characters from that game are morally ambiguous - Canderous, who is ruthless but holds honour and loyalty very highly and Jolee, the "grey" Jedi. I am glad Bioware's newer games offer you more grey choices for the player character.
#9669
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:56
Costin_Razvan
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The mainplot in Origins is idiotic.
Gather armies from the Dalish/Dwarves/Mages or Templars, save Redcliff ( or let it burn ), defeat the demon, search for an ancient artifact no one believes exists ( but you do so anyway because the plot forces you to embark on this idiotic questline ) just to save a noble so you can take down Loghain.
Never mind the lack of logic for anyone else other then a HN ( and perhaps a CE and DE but only if they found out somehow about the slavery much, much earlier ) to want to take down Loghain for other reasons then revenge.
Yes, you can't persuade him to join forces with you...because the game is forcing you to stick by Eamon who wants Alistair on throne ( and in Loghain's place I would sooner run a sword through myself then allow Eamon that power ).
Oh and you kill Howe...which as anyone else then a HN at that moment ( Elven origins included ) had no reason to.
Then you go marching with the full might of your armies to redcliff ( yeah thanks for allowing us to make choices as generals Bioware, so very much ) and you find out the Archdemon is marching on the capital ( go figure why ).
"Sigh"
So yeah...the story of Origins is SOO dark...frankly it's not and the main plot makes as much sense as Act III of Dragon Age 2. ( and Act I and II of DA2 make a HELL lot more sense ).
And don't mention the subplots. The circle is a dungeon crawl where at the end you decide to either have mages ( where did they get those numbers anyway I will never know ) or Templars in your army.
The Dalish Quest line is better done, you can see a long time before you meet the Lady that Zathrian did something, and then you can decide between 3 distinct choices. ( all of which have different results ).
Then there is Orzammar...which is actually done very badly compared to Kashyyyk, you lack real evidence to support either side and you mostly go on what you guess ( even as a DN you can't say Bhelen will be a good King, or that Harrowmont will be. As DC you can go based on Rica or not, so I guess that's something ).
As for companions, anyone claiming they are some of the best in any RPG hasn't played KOTOR II.
Gather armies from the Dalish/Dwarves/Mages or Templars, save Redcliff ( or let it burn ), defeat the demon, search for an ancient artifact no one believes exists ( but you do so anyway because the plot forces you to embark on this idiotic questline ) just to save a noble so you can take down Loghain.
Never mind the lack of logic for anyone else other then a HN ( and perhaps a CE and DE but only if they found out somehow about the slavery much, much earlier ) to want to take down Loghain for other reasons then revenge.
Yes, you can't persuade him to join forces with you...because the game is forcing you to stick by Eamon who wants Alistair on throne ( and in Loghain's place I would sooner run a sword through myself then allow Eamon that power ).
Oh and you kill Howe...which as anyone else then a HN at that moment ( Elven origins included ) had no reason to.
Then you go marching with the full might of your armies to redcliff ( yeah thanks for allowing us to make choices as generals Bioware, so very much ) and you find out the Archdemon is marching on the capital ( go figure why ).
"Sigh"
So yeah...the story of Origins is SOO dark...frankly it's not and the main plot makes as much sense as Act III of Dragon Age 2. ( and Act I and II of DA2 make a HELL lot more sense ).
And don't mention the subplots. The circle is a dungeon crawl where at the end you decide to either have mages ( where did they get those numbers anyway I will never know ) or Templars in your army.
The Dalish Quest line is better done, you can see a long time before you meet the Lady that Zathrian did something, and then you can decide between 3 distinct choices. ( all of which have different results ).
Then there is Orzammar...which is actually done very badly compared to Kashyyyk, you lack real evidence to support either side and you mostly go on what you guess ( even as a DN you can't say Bhelen will be a good King, or that Harrowmont will be. As DC you can go based on Rica or not, so I guess that's something ).
As for companions, anyone claiming they are some of the best in any RPG hasn't played KOTOR II.
#9670
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 02:47
KnightofPhoenix
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CalJones wrote...
That's an interesting way of looking at it.
I generally like to play "good" characters and the problem I had with KotOR was that the moral choices are rather too black and white. You can be a nice guy or a total dick (such as the way you treat the widow on Tatooine). I wouldn't mind playing evil if it was the machievellian sort but I'm not much one for kicking sand in people's faces.
Yea, many dark side choices are ridiculous (and hilarious). Like I would so use the force to act like a petty bully as I literally threaten every single person in a cantina to give me 50 credits. That's pathetic.
So far, I've been playing what I would do and I'm medium light. The last choice is going to give me 100 dark side points if I remember correctly, making me medium dark. A silly dichotomy that I ignore.
#9671
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 03:49
CalJones
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Yes, you can play 100% light or dark but the end choice will still tip you completely the other way. It's very contrived.
I did do the dark ending once but I hated to because I really didn't want to kill Jolee. He's awesome.
I did do the dark ending once but I hated to because I really didn't want to kill Jolee. He's awesome.
#9672
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 04:03
KnightofPhoenix
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I really like Jolee, but I can understand killing him. He's not going to get out of my way and he's a threat.
What I really dislike is being forced to kill Mission. A 14 year old girl is not a threat. Why do I have to kill her? Can't I want to rule over the Sith Empire and not kill children for vainly trying to get in my way?
That said, she could alert the Republic and the whole plan would be ruined. But there was no means of communications on the planet and Carth who escaped couldn't do it.Eh, they could have given us the choice to try and make her join us, she is easy to manipulate as the quest with the black vulkars on Taris showed.
What I really dislike is being forced to kill Mission. A 14 year old girl is not a threat. Why do I have to kill her? Can't I want to rule over the Sith Empire and not kill children for vainly trying to get in my way?
That said, she could alert the Republic and the whole plan would be ruined. But there was no means of communications on the planet and Carth who escaped couldn't do it.Eh, they could have given us the choice to try and make her join us, she is easy to manipulate as the quest with the black vulkars on Taris showed.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mai 2011 - 04:05 .
#9673
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:31
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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That's one of my biggest problems with Star Wars: the silly absolutist black/white duality of the Force. In concept, the whole light/dark side of the Force is pretty awesome, but it's never really implemented realistically or even artistically. You're either a a stone cold boring Jedi or a raving psychotic homicidal lunatic Sith, there seems to be little spectrum within the two alignments, little crossover.
That is one thing I did like about D&D/Forgotten Realms alignment system. Alignment had 9 shades with 1/3 of it neutral/grey, and one could actually creatively role-play darker/"evil" characters without being complete depraved lunatics. Though morality fluidity and definitions in D&D had alot to be desired. But, for example, Lawful Evil/Neutral evil actually provided some very interesting opportunities to play a very brilliant, but ruthless character.
It's a limitation that kept me from ever really getting into Star Wars. I'd have liked to play a follower of the Dark Side without being just plain stupid evil.
That is one thing I did like about D&D/Forgotten Realms alignment system. Alignment had 9 shades with 1/3 of it neutral/grey, and one could actually creatively role-play darker/"evil" characters without being complete depraved lunatics. Though morality fluidity and definitions in D&D had alot to be desired. But, for example, Lawful Evil/Neutral evil actually provided some very interesting opportunities to play a very brilliant, but ruthless character.
It's a limitation that kept me from ever really getting into Star Wars. I'd have liked to play a follower of the Dark Side without being just plain stupid evil.
#9674
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:50
KnightofPhoenix
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It's a limitation that kept me from ever really getting into Star Wars. I'd have liked to play a follower of the Dark Side without being just plain stupid evil.
I personally think the Sith Code is more intriguing and attractive than the absolutist impersonal Jedi code.
And I debated a lot about that, but then I stopped because the Star Wars universe is built on the morality of a 5 year old child, so you can't bring in nuance.
#9675
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 06:01
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally think the Sith Code is more intriguing and attractive than the absolutist impersonal Jedi code.
And I debated a lot about that, but then I stopped because the Star Wars universe is built on the morality of a 5 year old child, so you can't bring in nuance.
Yeah, same here about the Sith Code. In theory, very introguing and yeah, I much prefer it to the Jedi one. In implementation, however, like you said, it's pretty much 5 year old morality lessons. Dark Side=Evil/Batsh*t/Cackling Psychopath. Light Side=Moralizing, Boring, Bland, Stupid Good.
My interest in Star Wars is mainly due to my long-standing crush on Darth Vader.
:wub:
