Take this for example. Currently I am playing Kotor and I am in Korriban. Almost every Sith is acting like a spoiled sadistic petty brat, who think using the force to compensate for their inferiority complex on innocent weaklings to be anything but pathetic. IIRC, Uthar and Yuthura Ban were different, but still why don't they teach those brats properly and keep them in line?
My character is going to do a lot of clean up and disciplining, when he takes back his place as dark lord.
Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age
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Irish Guerrilla
, août 15 2010 05:21
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#9677
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 06:20
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Because alot of people can't understand the concept of "functional evil". If it's evil, then it must be childishly sadistic and brutish. And Dark Side=Evil is about as nuanced as it gets for most people.
Which, from the sounds of it, DA2 seems to be heading in that direction in terms of magic/blood magic or mages/templars. Instead of the many nuances you had in DAO on all fronts.
Which, from the sounds of it, DA2 seems to be heading in that direction in terms of magic/blood magic or mages/templars. Instead of the many nuances you had in DAO on all fronts.
#9678
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 02:15
KnightofPhoenix
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After speaking of the negatives, I think it's only fair to state the vast positives of Korriban and the rather substantial amount of variety there is. It's one of the few game scenarios that truly allows me to play a scheming manipulator, both in the short and long run.
So here I am a prospective student in the Sith Academy, where the...strangely somewhat sexy Yuthura Ban, who is the second in command in the Academy, takes an interest in me, due to the Force potential. She devises a plan for us to collaborate to kill her master, the head of the Academy, Uthar Wynn. Indeed, he himself overthrew his own master. The plan is me getting enough prestige, with her help, to reach the final test. The final test is going through Naga Sadow's tomb and reaching the star map (my objective anyways). Only 3 people are going to be there, Uthar, Yuthura and myself. Her plan is for both of us to kill him in the tomb while he is alone.
Out of the many choices I had, I did the following:
I agreed with her plan and pledged my support. I secretly told Uthar about Yuthura's plans. He was impressed, granted me prestige, and told me to instruct a Sith to poison Yuthura's bath, which would weaken her for the final duel. He was already suspecting Yuthura, so his plan was to have me fight her and the poison would help me out because he of course thinks I'm just a student at that point. I did instruct the Sith to secretly poison her. I go back to Yuthura and start talking with her about her personal life and get closer to her. I persuaded her that my intention is for us to become friends, or perhaps something more (a notion that somewhat intrigues me, were it in different circumstances), which she didn't disprove of. Either she was guillable enough to believe that I'm her friend (and she does start calling me friend everytime we talk), or she is playing along and thinks I am easy to manipulate and thus underestimates me. In either case, I benefit (Xanatos gambit). Then after she belives we are friends, I tell her that Uthar somehow found out about her plan and is planning for me to fight her as the final test. Managed to persuade her that I had nothing to do with him finding out and of course I did not mention the poison. She insists that the plan must continue and I re-affirm my loyalty to her. She then gives me a passcard to Uthar's room where I can place a device that would poison Uthar as well.
So I was essentially playing both against each other and had both poisoned and weakened without their knowledge, each thinking that only their enemy is poisoned and thus over-confident. That also provided more options. If either Yuthura or Uthar, or perhaps both, try to turn on me, they would be at a disadvantage. Alternatively, I could turn on them both and kill them all if I so wish. Indeed, perhaps the victory would have been more complete, in the short run, had I opted to destroy both.
But I thought of a more beneficial long term arrangement. By that time, my character knew he was Revan and wanted to reclaim his position. He already established some contacts (secret merchants, Genohordan secret assassins, Wookies), but he wanted a more concrete alliance and preferably within the Sith ranks. He heard that Malak led a crackdown on dissension once the truth of Revan being alive started to disseminate in the Empire. So some if not many were still loyal to Revan. So he conjured up a plan to forge an alliance with the head of the Academy who would support him when he seeks to overthrow Malak and reclaim his previous position.
Since he is too busy fighting Malak, someone has to be kept to lead the Academy, so killing them both was thus not a preferred option, even though I was prepared for the possibility with double poisoning. So I had to choose between Yuthura and Uthar. Yuthura, when she opened up to me, made the critical error of saying that she wished she had the same force potential as me. Whether it was sincere or an attempted manipulation, she inadvertently declared that she considers me a threat. Furthermore, while I found her very sympathetic (and her voice is strangely attractive), she was too unsubtle, brash, aggressive and angry (with sympathetic reasons). The last thing I wanted was another Malak. Plus, she did not disapprove of what Malak did to Revan. So I opted for Uthar, who is more calm, seemingly wiser and has experience in his job. Should he decide to double cross me, he would be weakened by the poison and easy pickings. I did not know his opinion on Revan, but I knew Yuthura's. Of the two, I thought Uthar would be easier pledge allegiance to Revan.
So during the final test, I turned on Yuthura, killed her though I still sympathize. Revealed to Uthar that Revan is still alive and seeks to reclaim his throne. Uthar was not surprised, recognized the truth and secretly pledged his allegiance and that of he Academy to the re-emergent Sith Lord. And thus Revan's real journey to reclaim his power began.
The ability to play a Xanatos roulette like this in a game is rare and it makes me all ticklish and warm inside. Absolutely love moments like this. And that's sadly something that is sorely lacking in recent Bioware games. They do not give us that many options anymore.
The amount of variety for this specific plot is impressive. You could be loyal to Yuthura, who turns on you because she fears you. You then choose to let her alive and lead the Academy, kill her (the Academy left leaderless would attack you), or turn her to the light. You can betray Yuthura, but if you did not tell Uthar, he would turn on you as well. You can poison one of them, or both. You can tell them to their face that they are both pathetic and engage them both at once. Or one after the other, if they don't turn on you first. You can choose not to go along with Yuthura's plan and not tell Uthar. You can choose to tell both, or one of them, about the other's plans...etc etc. Plus, the revelation of Revan also plays a part in this, vis a vis Uthar in particular.
This is a far-cry from the 2 to 3 options they force on you. Yes, there are 3-4 outcomes in this plot, but the variety on how to get to these outcomes is substantial (and the differences are shown with the two character's reactions at the end). Add to that rping different motivations, short vs long term goals, loyalty to the Jedi, or Sith, or solely self-interest...etc etc, adds for a lot of variety.
So here I am a prospective student in the Sith Academy, where the...strangely somewhat sexy Yuthura Ban, who is the second in command in the Academy, takes an interest in me, due to the Force potential. She devises a plan for us to collaborate to kill her master, the head of the Academy, Uthar Wynn. Indeed, he himself overthrew his own master. The plan is me getting enough prestige, with her help, to reach the final test. The final test is going through Naga Sadow's tomb and reaching the star map (my objective anyways). Only 3 people are going to be there, Uthar, Yuthura and myself. Her plan is for both of us to kill him in the tomb while he is alone.
Out of the many choices I had, I did the following:
I agreed with her plan and pledged my support. I secretly told Uthar about Yuthura's plans. He was impressed, granted me prestige, and told me to instruct a Sith to poison Yuthura's bath, which would weaken her for the final duel. He was already suspecting Yuthura, so his plan was to have me fight her and the poison would help me out because he of course thinks I'm just a student at that point. I did instruct the Sith to secretly poison her. I go back to Yuthura and start talking with her about her personal life and get closer to her. I persuaded her that my intention is for us to become friends, or perhaps something more (a notion that somewhat intrigues me, were it in different circumstances), which she didn't disprove of. Either she was guillable enough to believe that I'm her friend (and she does start calling me friend everytime we talk), or she is playing along and thinks I am easy to manipulate and thus underestimates me. In either case, I benefit (Xanatos gambit). Then after she belives we are friends, I tell her that Uthar somehow found out about her plan and is planning for me to fight her as the final test. Managed to persuade her that I had nothing to do with him finding out and of course I did not mention the poison. She insists that the plan must continue and I re-affirm my loyalty to her. She then gives me a passcard to Uthar's room where I can place a device that would poison Uthar as well.
So I was essentially playing both against each other and had both poisoned and weakened without their knowledge, each thinking that only their enemy is poisoned and thus over-confident. That also provided more options. If either Yuthura or Uthar, or perhaps both, try to turn on me, they would be at a disadvantage. Alternatively, I could turn on them both and kill them all if I so wish. Indeed, perhaps the victory would have been more complete, in the short run, had I opted to destroy both.
But I thought of a more beneficial long term arrangement. By that time, my character knew he was Revan and wanted to reclaim his position. He already established some contacts (secret merchants, Genohordan secret assassins, Wookies), but he wanted a more concrete alliance and preferably within the Sith ranks. He heard that Malak led a crackdown on dissension once the truth of Revan being alive started to disseminate in the Empire. So some if not many were still loyal to Revan. So he conjured up a plan to forge an alliance with the head of the Academy who would support him when he seeks to overthrow Malak and reclaim his previous position.
Since he is too busy fighting Malak, someone has to be kept to lead the Academy, so killing them both was thus not a preferred option, even though I was prepared for the possibility with double poisoning. So I had to choose between Yuthura and Uthar. Yuthura, when she opened up to me, made the critical error of saying that she wished she had the same force potential as me. Whether it was sincere or an attempted manipulation, she inadvertently declared that she considers me a threat. Furthermore, while I found her very sympathetic (and her voice is strangely attractive), she was too unsubtle, brash, aggressive and angry (with sympathetic reasons). The last thing I wanted was another Malak. Plus, she did not disapprove of what Malak did to Revan. So I opted for Uthar, who is more calm, seemingly wiser and has experience in his job. Should he decide to double cross me, he would be weakened by the poison and easy pickings. I did not know his opinion on Revan, but I knew Yuthura's. Of the two, I thought Uthar would be easier pledge allegiance to Revan.
So during the final test, I turned on Yuthura, killed her though I still sympathize. Revealed to Uthar that Revan is still alive and seeks to reclaim his throne. Uthar was not surprised, recognized the truth and secretly pledged his allegiance and that of he Academy to the re-emergent Sith Lord. And thus Revan's real journey to reclaim his power began.
The ability to play a Xanatos roulette like this in a game is rare and it makes me all ticklish and warm inside. Absolutely love moments like this. And that's sadly something that is sorely lacking in recent Bioware games. They do not give us that many options anymore.
The amount of variety for this specific plot is impressive. You could be loyal to Yuthura, who turns on you because she fears you. You then choose to let her alive and lead the Academy, kill her (the Academy left leaderless would attack you), or turn her to the light. You can betray Yuthura, but if you did not tell Uthar, he would turn on you as well. You can poison one of them, or both. You can tell them to their face that they are both pathetic and engage them both at once. Or one after the other, if they don't turn on you first. You can choose not to go along with Yuthura's plan and not tell Uthar. You can choose to tell both, or one of them, about the other's plans...etc etc. Plus, the revelation of Revan also plays a part in this, vis a vis Uthar in particular.
This is a far-cry from the 2 to 3 options they force on you. Yes, there are 3-4 outcomes in this plot, but the variety on how to get to these outcomes is substantial (and the differences are shown with the two character's reactions at the end). Add to that rping different motivations, short vs long term goals, loyalty to the Jedi, or Sith, or solely self-interest...etc etc, adds for a lot of variety.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 mai 2011 - 02:18 .
#9679
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:28
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Well, folks, tommorow I am flying out to Vancouver BC, and then onward south back home to the US for 5 weeks. So, everyone have fun with whatever diversions currently amuse you, and keep the Loghain Love alive!
<<<Looking forward to stuffing face with key Lime Pies and real f*cking pizzas, for a change.
<<<Looking forward to stuffing face with key Lime Pies and real f*cking pizzas, for a change.
#9680
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 04:52
CalJones
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Have some pies and pizza for me. I'm wheat intolerant (damn it).
#9681
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:11
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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CalJones wrote...
Have some pies and pizza for me. I'm wheat intolerant (damn it).
Aww, that must suck. Coeliac, I take it? I had problems a few years back with my guts, and that was one of the first things they tested me for.
Interesting you bring that up, my last trip to the States when my mom died had us rent a car where the previous user had left a book of gluten free recipes in the glove box. Even though me and my husband have no food intolerances, the book did open up new possibilities of cooking differently, utilizing other grain substitutes such as bean and lengume flours, rice flour, potato flour, and amaranth.
#9682
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 07:15
CalJones
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I'm not full coeliac but eating wheat makes me bloated and makes my joints hurt. It's well known that gluten causes something called leaky gut syndrome (which sounds nasty but has nothing to do with bowel movements - it basically causes inflammation that results in the intestinal wall becoming more porous than it should be, thus allowing harmful substances that would normally get pooped out to enter your bloodstream. Thus causing more inflammation in the body and various resulting ailments).
I'll eat cake on special occassions but I generally try to avoid things like bread, pasta and other baked goodies.
I'll eat cake on special occassions but I generally try to avoid things like bread, pasta and other baked goodies.
#9683
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 07:49
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Damn, that sucks. Sounds like a form of IBD. Probably a number of everyday foods then, that you have to avoid. Sorry to hear that. Can you still drink beer, since many beers are brewed from malted grain?
Which, funny enough, is another thing I'm looking forward to: getting some nice microbrew down my gullet to wash down the pizza and pies. Haven't had a decent beer since I was in the UK, the Spanish local beer makes Budweiser look quality.
Which, funny enough, is another thing I'm looking forward to: getting some nice microbrew down my gullet to wash down the pizza and pies. Haven't had a decent beer since I was in the UK, the Spanish local beer makes Budweiser look quality.
#9684
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 08:41
CalJones
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It's not, specifically, but funnily enough, a lot of people with IBD find it clears up when they stop eating grains.
As for beer, I don't like it so it's not an issue. I'm not much of a drinker.
As for beer, I don't like it so it's not an issue. I'm not much of a drinker.
#9685
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 09:10
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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It wouldn't surprise me. Strangely enough, the food source of civilization itself (cereals) tend to also be the source of alot of health problems. Grains and dairy both have large numbers of people allergic or intolerant to them. Rice and corn seem to be the only grains without major portions of the world's population sensitive to them. All the other true grains seem to cause problems due to their gluten content.
I'm not much of a drinker either, but I do enjoy the taste. texture, and refreshment of a good quality beer or cider in their own rights. If it was possible to make an excellent beer alcohol free, I'd probably prefer it.
Which makes me wonder, would the dwarves have alot of their population having some intolerance to surfacer food? They seem to live off mostly fungus and lichens as "grains". I bet alot of dwarves are lactose intolerant, because I don't see any dairy type livestock (which would have to be mamilian unguants).
I'm not much of a drinker either, but I do enjoy the taste. texture, and refreshment of a good quality beer or cider in their own rights. If it was possible to make an excellent beer alcohol free, I'd probably prefer it.
Which makes me wonder, would the dwarves have alot of their population having some intolerance to surfacer food? They seem to live off mostly fungus and lichens as "grains". I bet alot of dwarves are lactose intolerant, because I don't see any dairy type livestock (which would have to be mamilian unguants).
#9686
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 11:36
Morwen Eledhwen
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@Skadi --Key Lime pies. . .mmm. So does this mean that home is in the Keys, or elsewhere in FL?
And I envy you the trip to Vancouver. Everyone I know who's been there says it's incredible.
And I envy you the trip to Vancouver. Everyone I know who's been there says it's incredible.
Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 04 mai 2011 - 11:36 .
#9687
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:24
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Nope, West Coast born and raised. Key Lime Pie still remains my favorite desert, and second favorite food in the world (after a well made pizza, of course)
#9688
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:58
Collider
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I wonder if Loghain would nearly be as controversial if he didn't have anything to do with Alistair.
#9689
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:20
Morwen Eledhwen
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Nope, West Coast born and raised. Key Lime Pie still remains my favorite desert, and second favorite food in the world (after a well made pizza, of course)
Okay, that makes more sense. Florida and Skadi just seemed like an odd match.
And I love me some Key Lime pie too.
#9690
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:39
CalJones
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I'm more of a pecan pie person, when I'm playing Russian Roulette with my intestines.
Collider - I certainly think he'd be spared more often if it wasn't a straight up choice between him or Alistair. And whilst I understand the "either/or" choice, I think it's a shame you can't have both because the banters would have been epic.
Collider - I certainly think he'd be spared more often if it wasn't a straight up choice between him or Alistair. And whilst I understand the "either/or" choice, I think it's a shame you can't have both because the banters would have been epic.
#9691
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:04
Addai
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Loghain and Alistair in the party would have been priceless. And... hot.
I dunno what I'd do with a wheat allergy. Cookies! And I bake bread a lot, though I know there are gluten free recipes.
I dunno what I'd do with a wheat allergy. Cookies! And I bake bread a lot, though I know there are gluten free recipes.
#9692
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 07:49
Fiery Phoenix
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Or perhaps the other way around; that is to say, whether Alistair would be so controversial if it weren't for Loghain. I generally found myself agreeing more often with Loghain and wanting to put a shoe in Alistair's mouth, though I would have liked an option to have them both in your party rather than one taking the place of another. I'll probably have Alistair execute Loghain my next time through to see how it goes.Collider wrote...
I wonder if Loghain would nearly be as controversial if he didn't have anything to do with Alistair.
#9693
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:26
DragonRacer13
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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Nope, West Coast born and raised. Key Lime Pie still remains my favorite desert, and second favorite food in the world (after a well made pizza, of course)
Okay, that makes more sense. Florida and Skadi just seemed like an odd match.
Well, being Floridian myself, we are NOT the tourist picture people have of beautiful people laying on beaches and going to Disneyworld. Those are mostly tourists.
REAL Florida and its natives... we are a weird, weird, WEIRD ass bunch of people. I wouldn't trade it for anything, but we are seriously a screwed up bunch of folks. Not quite as bad as the Swamp People of Louisiana (in certain places), but it's... pretty bad. It's a diversified bad, though, depending on what PART of Florida you're in. LOL Skadi would find it a fascinating population character study, methinks.
But yes, Key Lime Pie is awesome.
And I would have LOVED to have the experience of Loghain and Alistair in the same party. The banters would have been golden. GOLDEN, I tell you! LOL
#9694
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 01:37
Costin_Razvan
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I don't see Alistair as being a great character...sure he is a decent, but great? Bleh.
I can look at Atton Rand and say he is a great character, I can look at bloody Carth Onassi and say he is a great character, but Alistair? not going to happen.
Anyway OT: Been playing Shogun 2 as the Uesugi clan, nothing quite beats playing as one of the most legendary general in Japanese History ( Uesugi Kenshin ).
I can look at Atton Rand and say he is a great character, I can look at bloody Carth Onassi and say he is a great character, but Alistair? not going to happen.
Anyway OT: Been playing Shogun 2 as the Uesugi clan, nothing quite beats playing as one of the most legendary general in Japanese History ( Uesugi Kenshin ).
#9695
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 03:07
Addai
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#9696
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 04:48
CalJones
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I am always pleased when I get a ffnet notification in my inbox. Good stuff, Addai. Interesting about Zevran.
#9697
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 05:46
Morwen Eledhwen
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It's kind of chilling to witness the Loghain disconnect as things continue to ratchet up, with the ever-present Howe slithering around the Regent's ankles.
Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 07 mai 2011 - 05:48 .
#9698
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 05:49
GSSAGE7
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The difference between the Loghain that shows disgust and regret when Howe hires Zevran to kill the Wardens and the Loghain who hams it up in the Landsmeet is pretty stark, true. I suspect it's even worse for the people who've read The Stolen Throne.Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
It's kind of chilling to witness the Loghain disconnect as things continue to ratchet up, with the ever-present Howe slithering around his ankles.
Modifié par GSSAGE7, 07 mai 2011 - 05:49 .
#9699
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 06:26
Morwen Eledhwen
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GSSAGE7 wrote...
The difference between the Loghain that shows disgust and regret when Howe hires Zevran to kill the Wardens and the Loghain who hams it up in the Landsmeet is pretty stark, true. I suspect it's even worse for the people who've read The Stolen Throne.
I don't really consider his Landsmeet behaviour "hamming it up" in comparison so much as:
1) Howe: Loghain, Grey Wardens have survived and are threatening your Regency. They're saying you were the one responsible for Cailan's death. I have hired an Antivan assassin; he will be quick and discreet.
Loghain: *sighs heavily* I don't like it, and I don't like you, but we can't afford this kind of disruption while our country is in crisis. See it done.
vs.
2) Banns: Loghain, we censure you before the Landsmeet and reject your claim to the Regency. You will now step down in disgrace.
Loghain: *shocked, incensed* Oh, so I guess I must have been the only one who saw that our country was in crisis and had no time for foolish games of politics! Ruthless measures are all very well when I'm restoring your independence for you, but when things become inconvenient you all want to take your toys and go home, and call me a monster! If I thought this whelp of Maric's could lead this nation against what threatens it I would have joined forces with him long ago. But he can't --or won't-- and I won't let you throw away Ferelden's freedom without a fight!
~~*rawr, commence dueling*~~
Call it "histrionics", perhaps, and I might agree with you, especially before he loses the Landsmeet and the remains of his temper. But the final rant was mostly genuine IMO.
Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 07 mai 2011 - 06:33 .
#9700
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 06:35
GSSAGE7
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It's a minor thing, but when you meet Loghain before the Landsmeet, you can pretty much say "If you want to save Fereldan, then stand with us." He says something to the effect of "I'm not trusting foreign hands to protect my country." So at the very least, he refuses an offer.
But that speech where he goes "STAND WITH ME, AND WE SHALL DEFEAT THE BLIGHT!" isn't hamming it up? He couldn't have hammed that up any more if he was dressed in a Yellow starfleet uniform, and yelled "KHAN!!!!" right after. The reason I bring up the hamminess of that part was that it shows how far he's gone. At the beginning, he knew he did something wrong, but knew it was for the greater good. At the Landsmeet, he honestly seems a few soldiers short of a legion.
But that speech where he goes "STAND WITH ME, AND WE SHALL DEFEAT THE BLIGHT!" isn't hamming it up? He couldn't have hammed that up any more if he was dressed in a Yellow starfleet uniform, and yelled "KHAN!!!!" right after. The reason I bring up the hamminess of that part was that it shows how far he's gone. At the beginning, he knew he did something wrong, but knew it was for the greater good. At the Landsmeet, he honestly seems a few soldiers short of a legion.
Modifié par GSSAGE7, 07 mai 2011 - 06:37 .
