12857 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Well, you can't fix it if you cut a man's head off...superglu ain't that good.

[nos_astra]

@CalJones
No, it wasn't meant to be a barb. I was trying to be nice.

@KoP, @Giggles
Sorry, I should have expressed that differently. Most people probably lack the amount of mercy, trust or perception that is necessary to spare Loghain while it's their own head in the noose.

@Giggles
I'm sure outside of a game you'd be able to avoid the gruesome part of decaptitating him in front of Anora and splatter her with his blood. And Alistair is probably the least bloodthirsty and vengeful person in Thedas, cut the guy some slack.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Considering that Alistair in that scene is so focused on revenge that its scary, I would say he is being a little overly vengeful.



If Riordian had not popped up and Alistair still wanted Loghain dead then ok, but when someone who has 20 times the experience you do in a field says to do something you listen.



I like Alistair fine, and Loghain does end up dead a lot depending on the run and how I play my PC.

However when he said "Forget Maric this is for DUNCAN" I knew revenge had claimed him.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, it's one thing to claim that Alistair deserves vengeance but to say that his refusal to get past what Loghain's done and his fixation on Loghain's death isn't actually vengeance is quite another. And inaccurate.

[CalJones]

Yes, the whole "this is for Duncan" bit made me cringe.

I had to let him do that when I was going for my WC badge. I hated that playthrough - it got deleted immediately after.

[nos_astra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Considering that Alistair in that scene is so focused on revenge that its scary, I would say he is being a little overly vengeful.

If Riordian had not popped up and Alistair still wanted Loghain dead then ok, but when someone who has 20 times the experience you do in a field says to do something you listen.

I like Alistair fine, and Loghain does end up dead a lot depending on the run and how I play my PC.
However when he said "Forget Maric this is for DUNCAN" I knew revenge had claimed him.

I'm not overly impressed with Riordan, to be honest. So his word is of little consequence for me unless I have to make up a reason.

I interpret the Forget Maric... line a bit differently. Sure, he's not above revenge but it's not the only thing that's important. If you could spare Loghain his immediate punishment and have him locked up Alistair wouldn't approve but he'd go along with it. It's the recruitment that makes him leave.

Oh the irony. Loghain is very vengeful, doesn't trust anyone and knows little of mercy and his supporters love him for it but when it comes to killing Loghain ...

Modifié par klarabella, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[Sarah1281]

If you could spare Loghain his immediate punishment and have him locked up Alistair would back down. It's the recruitment that makes him leave.

We don't know that. If you simply say that you accept Loghain's surrender before Riordan brings up the GW plan, Alistair doesn't sound particularly accepting of it when he asks you what you're waiting for and tells you to just kill him already. And if Riordan had never mentioned the Joining, the only reasonable non-killing him option would be to do what you do to Anora if she's not Queen and lock her up. That didn't sound good enough for Alistair.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
 If you could spare Loghain his immediate punishment and have him locked up Alistair wouldn't approve but he'd go along with it. It's the recruitment that makes him leave.

You're speculating. Indeed he sees Loghain becoming a warden as an insult to Duncan's memory. But he clearly also feels the need to kill Loghain "for Duncan".

EDIT: also when you accept his surrender before Riordan says anything, you know what Alsitair says "kill him already".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
 If you could spare Loghain his immediate punishment and have him locked up Alistair wouldn't approve but he'd go along with it. It's the recruitment that makes him leave.

You're speculating. Indeed he sees Loghain becoming a warden as an insult to Duncan's memory. But he clearly also feels the need to kill Loghain "for Duncan".

EDIT: also when you accept his surrender before Riordan says anything, you know what Alsitair says "kill him already".

Yes, I'm speculating based on what I can see of Alistair's character in the game. He's speaks fondly of Arl Eamon who didn't treat him all that well (again up to interpretation).

I said that Alistair is not above revenge but I assume he wouldn't hate you if you simply denied him killing Loghain.

Don't mean to turn this into an Alistair thread. We should be talking about Loghain.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:13 .

[Giggles_Manically]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
 If you could spare Loghain his immediate punishment and have him locked up Alistair wouldn't approve but he'd go along with it. It's the recruitment that makes him leave.

You're speculating. Indeed he sees Loghain becoming a warden as an insult to Duncan's memory. But he clearly also feels the need to kill Loghain "for Duncan".

EDIT: also when you accept his surrender before Riordan says anything, you know what Alsitair says "kill him already".

Yes, I'm speculating based on what I can see of Alistair's character in the game. He's speaks fondly of Arl Eamon who didn't treat him all that well (again up to interpretation).

I said that Alistair is not above revenge but I assume he wouldn't hate you if you simply denied him killing Loghain.

Don#t mean to turn this into an Alistair thread. We should be talking about Loghain.

Well both of their charachters are very tied toghther anyway.

Also I think if he is unhardened and you spare Loghain he does hate the Warden.
Although Gaider has said that he would come to regret it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
I said that Alistair is not above revenge but I assume he wouldn't hate you if you simply denied him killing Loghain.

His reaction to when you simply accept his surrender, says otherwise to me. But we'll never know for sure.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I said that Alistair is not above revenge but I assume he wouldn't hate you if you simply denied him killing Loghain.

His reaction to when you simply accept his surrender, says otherwise to me. But we'll never know for sure.

Except if we see Drunk Alistair in Da2. That is.
Hope Gaider wasent just being Gaider when he talked about it.

[Costin_Razvan]

Except if we see Drunk Alistair in Da2. That is.

Hope Gaider wasent just being Gaider when he talked about it.

If I needed ANOTHER reason to only use my Dwarf Noble as an import in Dragon Age 2, then this is it.

[CalJones]

Well, if you marry Alistair to Anora and spare Loghain, Alistair is still angry with you at the post-Coronation (especially if Loghain's still alive...but even if he did the sacrifice, Al's not happy).

He seems to have got over it by Awakening but I suspect there weren't that many versions of the Alistair greeting cut-scene.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Except if we see Drunk Alistair in Da2. That is.
Hope Gaider wasent just being Gaider when he talked about it.

If I needed ANOTHER reason to only use my Dwarf Noble as an import in Dragon Age 2, then this is it.

Hell Id import it just to hear about the Paragon Aeuducan.
That is one boss name there.

For some reason I think Dwarven Two Handers get an extra killing blow.
The PC rears back and then lops an foes head off. Didnt see it with a Human Two Hander.

[Persephone]

Zjarcal wrote...I 

Poor Loggy. He had gone so many days with nothing but love.

Today was haters fest.

Let's make it up with a love fest. While I'd never drool over him like some do over Alistair (I think Loghain would be sickened by fangirling).... He is my favorite character in the whole game. While many may hate him, he leaves no one untouched. The greatest characters polarize. I'd rather have 50 pro/contra Loghain discussions than one Alistair drool fest. :happy:

The Katriel comparison....WHOA....I dislike Katriel to begin with.... but she is so blah and spineless. And there is NO doubt in her case that West Hill was planned. That she was working for Orlais. Eugh.

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

You might not be able to spare him. For me, it's really the only option, for mercy's sake if nothing else. The fact that he is also a war hero who has done so much for his country only adds to the argument.
More to the point, Riordan is not merely a stranger - he's a senior Grey Warden - your superior (even if indirectly), and a man who has far more experience of the Wardens than you do. If he, who has been tortured in Howe's dungeon for who knows how long, can suggest sparing Loghain, then I have no reason to disagree.
I find Alistair's immature craving for revenge far more repulsive than anything Loghain has done.

The same here. I recently ranted about Eamon's horrid treatment of Alistair. And I was asked "Didn't you betray him way more than Eamon ever did?" , referring to me sparing Loghain. Since when is refusing to kill someone despite my friend/lover wanting me to a betrayal? Alistair's thirst for revenge isn't something that should be supported. (And sadly it's often cited as the ONLY reason...) For his own sake. And Duncan would agree.

Modifié par Persephone, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
 If you could spare Loghain his immediate punishment and have him locked up Alistair wouldn't approve but he'd go along with it. It's the recruitment that makes him leave.

You're speculating. Indeed he sees Loghain becoming a warden as an insult to Duncan's memory. But he clearly also feels the need to kill Loghain "for Duncan".

EDIT: also when you accept his surrender before Riordan says anything, you know what Alsitair says "kill him already".

And in that whiny, inane and childish voice. I was just waiting for him to stomp his foot.

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...
That's my point, though, that he does regret, that he does think it was a mistake, yet at the same time, he doesn't offer what the solution should have been. There's a difference between wishing it didn't have to be done, and wishing he hadn't done it. If it was a mistake, what was the better answer?

I can't speak to what he thinks should have been done.  Maybe he thinks he should have abandoned his duties as king and run away with her so they could live together happily forever and ever...  But when he runs into her in the fade, he rejects the idea of staying with her and it's not only because he perceives it as a dream but because he recognizes he has a duty to those depending on him.  (I think that's what happened.  Correct me if I'm wrong.)

If I were forced to venture a guess, I would say he thinks he should have spared her.  Forced her to run away and never see her again.  No one knew about her crimes or her identity as an assassin but Loghain (I'm pretty sure.) At least then she would have been alive.  It is a sentimental point of view, but a point of view nonetheless.

I guess I'm thinking about it in the context of some of my own characters decisions about what she might second guess and what she would actually regret. My character gave up Alistair to spare Loghain. It was a risk. If Loghain had turned out to be unhelpful, insincere, if he had continued to try to kill or sabotage her, or whatever, while she would think that her risk hadn't paid off, she would still not regret it, because she believed she was making the correct decision at the time. On the other hand, my character did the DR against her better judgment. She felt that it was incredibly risky, yet she decided to do it anyway. If *that* turns out to be a horrible disaster that causes death and destruction, she will regret, because she didn't take the path she thought was correct, she took a different path for personal reasons.

I mean absolutely no offense, I'm just giving you my honest answer.  I think that is crazy.  If I spared Loghain at the expense of Alistair and Loghain refused to be compliant, or worse, tried to turn on me, I would totally regret it. Even if I thought it was a good idea initially.  I would want Alistair back.  I would want to apologize for being such a fool. Hell, if Loghain didn't turn on me and everything worked out perfectly I would still regret it if I had a strong connection to Alistair.  I would always wonder if there was a way I could have made it work with both of them.  I see your point though, perhaps there is a difference between true regret and idle second guessing.   

I suppose he was a successful king, he did manage (with some help, which is fine) to reclaim and hold Ferelden. I assume that in the space between ST and Calling, and between Calling and Origins, that he must have been awesome, though from some of the things he says and does, it's a little hard for me to imagine it.

There has been a lot of Maric hate since I last posted.  Perhaps I'll have to do a 'Complete Defense of Maric' at some point!  But for now, I'll just say this.  Loghain is nothing without Maric.  Maric is nothing without Loghain.  They are a fantastic partnership, that's why they were so successful.  Maric is a persuasive leader, he inspires his citizens.  Loghain is.... not charismatic.  Nor does he have the necessary blood line to be accepted by the people.  He recognizes all of these things, that's why he supports Maric.  Even he finds himself enthralled by Maric's charisma from time to time.  I'm not sure what changed between the novels and the game to make Loghain think that Ferelden would accept him as acting leader, but those are the primary reasons his bid for power fails (excluding the warden I guess).  

If I were to entertain the idea of the two of them living separately, Maric would almost certainly die quickly.  (Though he does show an incredible knack for surviving things he shouldn't.)  Loghain would likely live for a long time, he's far more self sufficient and far less trusting.  The difference is, Maric would have lived more in his short life than Loghain would in an eternity.  Loghain is incapable of allowing others to seem him vulnerable, so it's hard for anyone to have a real connection with him.  Maric can relate to anyone and make them feel at ease, that's what makes him such a successful leader.  People are willing to unite behind him.  For all his faults, the value of this virtue should not be under-estimated.

Someone earlier said that their husband thinks that Queen Moira was the last truly great Theirin.  I'm curious to know why.  There isn't much in the book to support that, in my opinion.  We don't learn much about her at all.  Arguably, it's all idolized memories from Maric.  The facts say Queen Moira never ruled over Ferelden, her son did.  She died after failing to secure the support and faith of her own people.  I don't want to make it seem like I hate her or think she has no redeemable qualities, just that the book doesn't really dwell on it and you can't argue with her son's results.  So ultimately, I don't really see what makes her better.  

 
I suppose that would just depend on whether you would still define it as love if a person is capable of putting their country before their friends/family/love/personal interests. Maybe it's odd, but that quality is exactly one of the reasons that my character is attracted to him.

Love causes people to act irrationally from time to time.  The only time Loghain arguably acts irrationally is in regards to Orlesians supposedly planning to invade his country.  It's safe to say he loves his country.  If he truly loved Maric or Rowan more than his country would he be willing to manipulate Maric into murdering the woman he loved or deny Rowan the opportunity to be truly happy?  

I find Loghain's ability to turn off his humanity and do what he feels is necessary as incredibly admirable.  It is also horrifying.  It is admirably horrifying. 

[CalJones]

Good post.

I'd agree that Maric and Loghain are a great double act but not so good individually. It's like when comedy duos decide to do their own thing or when the WWE decides to split up a good tag team. Doesn't always work. Some people just work better together.



Persephone - yeah. I get why women like Alistair. He's sweet, self-deprecating and doesn't take offence if you take the mick. But his Landsmeet tantrum really put me off him. I've never been able to finish a romance with him - and now I just don't even try to start one.

[phaonica]

See, this is a big difference. For you (or your character) this kind of badassery is attractive, for me it's repulsive.
Even if I could be convinced that something Loghain suggests doing (sacrificing a village for the greater good) is a smart option, even if I could be brought to follow his orders, I would hate his guts. I'm human after all.

I guess it just depends. As a player, I think that Alistair's willingness to break up with his LI for the sake of the kingdom is one of his finer moments.

I also doubt that in reality someone would spare Loghain. You can't look inside his head, you can't read two prequel books to have an opinion of him.

I also think this depends on the context and the character. I'm not crazy about bringing what we might or might not do in reality, because it could get personal or political. Without doing that too much, in real life, I don't have to live with as much death and combat as the people in this game are used to. I've never lived under a hostile occupation. In real life, I'm not responsible for people's lives, and I'm certainly not responsible for finding a way to end a Blight. In real life, I might not be strong enough to spare someone like Loghain. But I also didn't grow up like any of these characters did, in the world that these characters did, put into the situations that these characters were. If I, personally, were suddenly dumped into an DAO origin as the protagonist, I can assure you, Ferelden would be screwed. But my character grew up completely differently from me. Do I think that she would, in her reality, have the capacity to spare Loghain? Yes, I do.

And if your decisions turns out wrong, you'd not even regret it? I have a hard time believing that.

No, she wouldn't regret it. Sometimes things do not go according to plan, but that doesn't mean that one made the wrong decision.

You can't look inside his head, you can't read two prequel books to have an opinion of him. All you have is this stranger in front of you, a man you maybe knew personally for about 2 hours in your life, a legend ... but what kind of person is he? And another stranger comes in and suggests recruiting him. And you would do it? 

I didn't read the books until after playing through the game twice. And I didn't read a lot of forum stuff until after that second Landsmeet, either, because I was personally curious if anyone else had the same compulsion to spare him that I did. Loghain was a stranger to me, and I may not have known him very long, but that was a reason for me to *spare* him. I didn't even know him, how could I judge? And other the stranger, who suggests recruiting Loghain, is the only other person around with Warden experience. I've been a Warden for one year with scarcely any direction, what makes me think I know better than him about Warden business? That isn't to say that I shouldn't question Riordan, only that whatever arguments Riordan made would carry more weight to me than a total stranger's. 

[Sarah1281]

Someone earlier said that their husband thinks that Queen Moira was the last truly great Theirin. I'm curious to know why. There isn't much in the book to support that, in my opinion. We don't learn much about her at all. Arguably, it's all idolized memories from Maric. The facts say Queen Moira never ruled over Ferelden, her son did. She died after failing to secure the support and faith of her own people. I don't want to make it seem like I hate her or think she has no redeemable qualities, just that the book doesn't really dwell on it and you can't argue with her son's results. So ultimately, I don't really see what makes her better.

I respect her because she was the one who for first inspiring the rebellion against the Orlesians and personally leading it until her death. Yes, she didn't live to see the end of the rebellion but how does that make her less great? Her father was the one whose reign saw the start of the occupancy. He tried to start a rebellion but he lacked charisma and the nobles all thought that they had no hope. Once Moira took over, however, things really started to look up. She was betrayed, yes, but that doesn't automatically mean that she was a failure. That she never ruled just meant that the Orlesians were rather determined not to leave and without her actions then Maric never would have been to use her rebellion to eventually oust them.

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...


(Husband posting)

My wife doesn't like it, but I've said a number of times "The Best days of the Therin line are long over".   After reading the books especially, I really can't buy into the Arthurian myth, that Eamon seems to push.   Maric was an OK king with lots and lots of help from Loghain and Rowan.   But even "When he's hardened" I still think he kind of sucks.   (When you factor in his brooding).

When you take the entire line into context, with Cailan's foolishness, some of Alistairs problems etc.    I tend to see the last really good Theirin leader as Maric's mom, the rebel queen.    And well I see the books as actually lending credit with the idea of starting a new line later on as far as the Landsmeet goes.

Yeah because the Loghain regency was the Mac Tir line's finest hour.  LOL

Don't you love it when we have marital spats in the forums. 

Theirin Love 4Eva!

[KnightofPhoenix]

lol we definately do love it, yes.

[Zjarcal]

That's hilarious!



Wife quoting husband who's using her account to post something she disagrees with. Nice!