12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedimaster88]

But this is about Loghain so... I have seen some of his dialogue and all, but I dont know. I still have little to none reasons to spare his life. I can understand some of his reasons but I still dont think they justify his actions. I think Harvey Dent says it best in the Dark Knight. "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself to become the villain".

[Addai]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

But this is about Loghain so... I have seen some of his dialogue and all, but I dont know. I still have little to none reasons to spare his life. I can understand some of his reasons but I still dont think they justify his actions. I think Harvey Dent says it best in the Dark Knight. "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself to become the villain".

That's reasonable.  But this story takes inspiration from the Song of Ice and Fire series, and in those books you quickly figure out that there are no good guys and bad guys, just winners and losers.  The PC is cast as a "hero," so it's possible to see it as a black vs. white story, but I don't find that very satisfying myself.

To those following The Arrangement, I just published chapter 30.  Loghain Agonistes.

[CalJones]

It's taking a bit of a depressing turn, yikes. But I'm interested to see how it pans out in your AU.

I've been watching Game of Thrones (having not read the books) and yes, it's much like that. I can see how Dragon Age was influenced by it. Although there are a lot more moments that made me go "whoa!" Martin does seem to kill off characters with an almost reckless abandon.

[Jedimaster88]

Yeah its true the PC can make all sort of nasty things everywhere. Heck he can even be worse than Loghain and still he/she is called a hero in the end. Its nice to have the freedom of choice and shape your own story. Im a big softie so I just cant bring myself to do those nasty things.

I remember my first darkside playthrough in KOTOR. Damn I felt dirty in the end and thought what a traitorous rat my character was.

[CalJones]

Yeah I hated playing darkside in that game because, rather than intelligent evil, it forces you to be a cretinous thug if you want the darkside points. And I hated killing Jolee - he was awesome.
Mass Effect handled it better - the jerk choices are there but you can avoid them and still be a renegade.
I will say that the choices in Dragon Age are a lot more grey, if you will. You can still be a dick (murder knifing the hungry prisoner or the wounded soldier, for instance) but I find it unenjoyable to play like that. The bigger choices, though, can be argued either way and still are, a year after the game's release. I don't think DA2 inspires quite the same sort of debate, sadly.

[DragonRacer13]

Addai67 wrote...
To those following The Arrangement, I just published chapter 30.  Loghain Agonistes.

*wibbles*

[Bleachrude]

Personally, I think one of the things that makes me come down against Loghain is that I LIKE Ferelden..

I like that the bannorn holds the king in check and that the king has to get support for his policies through the bannorn....Indeed, I think that's why so many people prefer/like Ferelden over say Orlais or Kirkwall..

You get the sense that Ferelden is the closest nation to our Western style democracy which we feel comfortable with...

Poisoning the king's political ally is something I would think would be part of the Orlesian "game" and working with Howe AFTER the couslands massacre is soething I can see Antivans being proud of...Thats NOT what Ferelden should be about.

Worse, it sets a dangerous precedent longterm politically as if Loghain dies a hero, it exonerates all of his crimes which is a HORRIBLE thing to teach young Fereldens..

(Indeed, the game itself makes this point with the Tevinters who mock Fereldans for being "oh so honourable but when the chips are down, they jump into the gutter with the Tevinters"

I actually found myself at least respecting the Tevinters since they aren't hypocrites.

[Jedimaster88]

Yeah thats the one thing about Loghain that makes me dislike him much. His hypocrisy. When he whines to Eamon about how he is dividing ferelden and all that and in the landsmeet he accuses the nobles for being traitors and finally says "how dare you judge me!!?" he acts like he has every right to do what he did. Does he think he is above the law and everything else? Wish I could say to him in those situations "You brought this on yourself willingly and now you face the consequences for your actions"

By executing him everyone will see that things like that are not tolerated no matter who they are. This way people will remember him as a man with all the good AND bad things he did and nothing more. I think its better than that he dies a hero and everyone will go on like he NEVER did anything wrong.

[Addai]

Not sure what you're expecting any of us to say. Loghain does get some tunnel vision, he is desperate to save Ferelden and believes he's the only one who can do it, but in the chaos of game time it's not clear to me who else there is. He ****s up, but it's not out of personal ambition, at least. Some pride, though. And he does get emotional at the LM, but no one is at their best there, including Alistair and Anora. No paragons there.

[Bleachrude]

The funny thing is that in all honesty, I don't think he needed to poison the Arl.

The game mentions that the nobles look to Anora for governance, which means that unless Anora supported Cailan's Orlesian overture, the bannorn wouldn't go along with it even if Eamon did (especially if Bryce Cousland opposed it and given that the game portrays Bryce as one that many of the nobles look to for good examples of leadership, Bryce wouldn't support a stupid Cailan policy...it would be the Queen + 2 Teryns versus the King + 1 Arl)

As an aside, this is also why I tend to think the "cailan marries Celene" plot that was cut from the game shouldn't be considered lore...If the bannorn are not going to support Alistair marrying a non-human Hero of Ferelden a.k.a "I just saved ALL your lives" as queen, the idea that they would support the Orlesian empress? Especially given the majority of the bannorn had fought in the war - wasn't Teagan mentioned as being one of the younger banns and one fot he few that didn't actually fight in the war? The Teryns and all the arls did though...)

[Costin_Razvan]

You talk as if the nobles have any real loyalty for Fereldan. "Laughs"

Let me lay one of the ground rules about politics: There is no such things as loyalty in it, there are only interests ( personal ones or not ) at the core of it.

Most of the nobility ( Including the Couslands ) supported Meghren's rule during the Rebellion until River Dane...when they joined since Maric was begining to win. It was only Howe, of all people, who supported Maric.

[Addai]

Not so sure Bryce wouldn't have gone along with it. He's a royalist- going against Cailan would be going against a Theirin king- he's not as wed to Theirin royalism as Eamon is, but he'd at least be a wild card I think.

Removing the Celene story line does make Eamon's poisoning more a WTF thing. In my story I had to raise the stakes to be able to write it straight, because as it stood in the game it didn't make a lot of sense IMO.

@Costin, the Couslands didn't support Meghren. They were chased out of their keep and White River appears to have been fought before River Dane- unless you know of a source I don't.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juin 2011 - 04:38 .

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
Not sure what you're expecting any of us to say. Loghain does get some tunnel vision, he is desperate to save Ferelden and believes he's the only one who can do it, but in the chaos of game time it's not clear to me who else there is. He ****s up, but it's not out of personal ambition, at least. Some pride, though. And he does get emotional at the LM, but no one is at their best there, including Alistair and Anora. No paragons there.

Maybe because the writers didn't bother with creating a complex background in Ferelden politics. Everything is simplified to suit the needs of the average gamer who shouldn't be confused with details and information.

Anora, the capable queen, is busy resolving her daddy issues and outmanouvered by one man who is brutal but neither particularly smart nor subtle. Violating the rule of show, don't tell. We are told she is an awesome politician, but don't see her being one.

Loghain is a general of renown, a hero to the people and a teyrn, yet he doesn't have any allies in Ferelden other than Howe? And if he does have allies, why does he depend on Howe so much? Without jumping through several hoops, it's almost impossible (for me) to reconcile the supposed complexity and depth of the character with the idiocy and ignorance he displays in the game.

So in order to make Anora and Loghain look less incompetent and dumb we have to assume everyone else in Ferelden is. How else can we explain that two characters who are respected among the nobility and the common folk seem strangely isolated and disconnected from what's really going on?

To say Loghain doesn't have any personal ambition doesn't do the character justice, I think. I believe, he wants to relive the glorious days of beating Orlais. It's an obsession and a personal ambition of his that Orlesian armies will not set foot on Fereldan soil again.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[Bleachrude]

I still think the Celene storyline doesn't really make much sense given how the non-human wardens can't marry Alistair....again, this _IS_ the Hero of Ferelden (and one aspect that I think gets shortchanged is that there SHOULD be just as big societal ramifications when the Sacred Ashes are found in playthroughs where you get rid of both the reavers and the false Andraste...can you imagine the hoopla in the Christian world if say the Cross of Jesus of Nazareth was actually found and verified? If the Warden found it so everybody can make safe piligrimages to it? Hell, even an elf mage would get serious support from the chantry IMO in a marriage bid)

Personally, I can't really see the nobles of Ferelden welcoming the Orlesians since even if Orlais had never invaded Ferelden, the fact that the Orlesian government is so centralized with all the power invested in the Emperor/Empress means a loss of power for the nobles unless they were personal favourites of the Emperor/empress.

I can see nobles who grew up under this system and are currently "IN" with the emperor not wanting to rock the boat but those who aren't? I think in DA:Origins that there are a lot of scrapped dialogue lingering

(Biggest one for me is when you rescue Anora and Alistair and Anora talk as if they know/met each other before...er, say what?)

As an aside, do we know which nobles actually fought and when they joined the rebellion?

EDIT: Loghain DOES have allies..Bann Ceorlic for one will always support him even though he's part of the Southern bannorn that should be hardpressed against the darkspawn. Plus, in the Landsmeet, you have to convince the nobles to switch their support from Loghain to you by presenting evidence

Modifié par Bleachrude, 20 juin 2011 - 08:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Maybe because the writers didn't bother with creating a complex background in Ferelden politics. Everything is simplified to suit the needs of the average gamer who shouldn't be confused with details and information.

That's true. Bioware generally fails at making plots like this.

Loghain is a general of renown, a hero to the people and a teyrn, yet he doesn't have any allies in Ferelden other than Howe? And if he does have allies, why does he depend on Howe so much? Without jumping through several hoops, it's almost impossible (for me) to reconcile the supposed complexity and depth of the character with the idiocy and ignorance he displays in the game.

Howe is one of the few who has his full army intact. And Howe is maneuvring behind Loghain's back. That's how he took the Arling of Denerim.

So there are reasons as to why Howe is rising up the ranks, whether Loghain liked it or not.

So in order to make Anora and Loghain look less incompetent and dumb we have to assume everyone else in Ferelden is. How else can we explain that two characters who are respected among the nobility and the common folk seem strangely isolated and disconnected from what's really going on?

That's because they are. And that's the mark of bioware games. They make everyone around the PC an idiot. And we saw that to the extreme in DA2, to the point where the PC himself is an idiot.

Doens't change my appreciation of oghain as a character, which was never really based on his political competence (or lack thereof).

As for Anora. Yea, it's not shown. Initialy, I picked her mostly because she isn't Alistair.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juin 2011 - 02:07 .

[CalJones]

Just FYI, Grey Wardens did a recent analysis of Loghain centering on Flemmeth's prophecies. It's not exactly news to most of us but the newcomers might find it interesting: Prophecy and Betrayal.

[Costin_Razvan]

Meh. The writer of that use paranoia too often.

Oh yeah, Loghain was paranoid the Orlesians would try and take over Fereldan once the Blight was dealt with, that was totally paranoia and madness from a sick mind...oh wait.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's because they are. And that's the mark of bioware games. They make everyone around the PC an idiot. And we saw that to the extreme in DA2, to the point where the PC himself is an idiot.

Yeah, it's something Bioware could really improve upon. Actually creating gameworlds and scenarios where the PC is actually surround by challenging, competant people and situations, instead of being the hero simply because he/she is the only one with half a brain, and the only one not too lazy or useless to sort out very simple problems.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's because they are. And that's the mark of bioware games. They make everyone around the PC an idiot. And we saw that to the extreme in DA2, to the point where the PC himself is an idiot.

Yeah, it's something Bioware could really improve upon. Actually creating gameworlds and scenarios where the PC is actually surround by challenging, competant people and situations, instead of being the hero simply because he/she is the only one with half a brain, and the only one not too lazy or useless to sort out very simple problems.

There are two redeeming things about Origins in that regards. Eamon, who is so good that very few people see him for what he is and is smart, even if I disagree with him. And Bhelen.
Both situations of course were not as complex and well written as they could have been, but at least those two were shown as relatively competent. 

Anora sounded competent and intelligent, but we didn't get the chance to see that, other than the epilogue.  Though that would have been difficult considering the nature of the plot. I personally do not see her initially trusting Loghain as a sign of incompetence, nor Loghain moving in on her with his army with her being unable to stop it as that either. But yea, in-game, I had to resort to codices, Loghain and Eamon to come to the conclusion that she'd be a good ruler (of course I was planning to assist her). But I was told, I was not shown.

But at the very least some people in Origins sounded intelligent. In DA2, we didn't get even that, let alone people being shown as competent.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juin 2011 - 05:44 .

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...
Loghain is a general of renown, a hero to the people and a teyrn, yet he doesn't have any allies in Ferelden other than Howe?

He does have allies- Dragon's Peak and some of the Bannorn, obviously Gwaren, though not by late in the game when there is said to be a riot there.  However he's cut off Redcliffe by his own actions, and by the time he's back from Ostagar, Howe has occupied the north.  He's too powerful to ignore.  Loghain should not have trusted him as much as he did, but per Gaider he believed he could control and use him.  It took him a long time to realize that he'd been played, and to admit that he had made disastrous mistakes.
 

To say Loghain doesn't have any personal ambition doesn't do the character justice, I think. I believe, he wants to relive the glorious days of beating Orlais. It's an obsession and a personal ambition of his that Orlesian armies will not set foot on Fereldan soil again.

I suppose it's a matter of terminology.  If something is so important to you and you think you're the only one who can see it done, I guess you can call that an ambition, but that seems to me the wrong word for it.  Overdeveloped sense of duty, hubris- these are more fitting IMO.

[Bleachrude]

Well writing in videogames is never really going to be highbrow and then there's the fact that many a writer don't have actual knowledge of politics and/or tactics PLUS it would be wasted on most (let's be honest, even if DA was written to be Oscar worthy, it still is going to pale in sales to any popular shooter like Halo or Call of Duty) PLUS what makes sense rarely makes for interesting/good storylines (why again is the Joker running around again in Gotham?)

[Addai]

I don't think it's bad in terms of plot elements. There's a little weirdness in time frame. I think the time frame has to be stretched to accommadate all the epic things the Warden is off doing. It would be more understandable if there were chaos in the government for 3-4 months, rather than a year or more.

[Jedimaster88]

Okay you seem to be the sort of people who have read the stolen throne and the calling or what it is. I havent seen them in Finland so I havent had the chance to read them myself.

Im a bit curious about why Loghain is so distrusting to the wardens. Is it simply that his hate for orlesians is so deep that as soon as he sees orlesians, whether it is a merchant, soldier, grey warden or some other, that he instantly thinks they are all bad and should stay away from Ferelden no matter what? Dragon age wiki offers some little info about the novels but thats it.

Can you enlighten me about this? The calling is what interests me because isnt that about the grey wardens and young Duncan?

[Addai]

The Wardens were kicked out of Ferelden some 400 years before game time because they took part in/ led a coup against the then king, who was a bit of a jerkwad by the sounds. This is the plot of the Warden's Keep DLC.

The Calling is about what led up to King Maric allowing the Wardens back in to Ferelden. Long story short, Maric goes off with some Wardens on a rescue mission without telling Loghain. In the meantime there is an attempt by Orlesians, in cooperation with the Architect (an intelligent darkspawn) to take over Ferelden's Circle Tower and eventually Ferelden I guess (*I should explain, this wasn't the Orlesian government, it was the Orlesian First Enchanter of Ferelden's tower, some Orlesian troops, and a couple Wardens- the Architect had a plan to taint all humanity in order to stop the cycle of Blights). Loghain shows up with troops to repel this plot and rescue Maric.

So he does have more reason than most to mistrust Wardens. He's seen that they are not always above board. The fact that he talks about them as respectfully as he does in Ostagar is rather a surprise in light of this, but Maric was a supporter of the Wardens. This goes back to the Stolen Throne where they met Flemeth who prophesied that a Blight would hit Ferelden but that Maric wouldn't be alive to see it. She extracted some promise from him, we don't know what, but it may have been to let the Wardens back in to Ferelden. She wanted her god baby, after all.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juin 2011 - 10:33 .

[Jedimaster88]

I see. Well those circumstances do give good reasons for his behavior. Thanks for the info.

Makes me wonder that didnt Maric tell Loghain about what he experienced with the wardens? You would think he saw pretty well why they are needed and would tell about it to his friend. Then again the wardens dont exactly share their secrets. This actually makes me also wonder how does Anora know about the joining in the landsmeet.