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[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I'm curious as to how many would have taken an "imprisonment" option to Loghain's fate? I thought that would have been one option instead of the two seemingly extremes presented in the game.

If either side had ended up in prison, it would have been a death sentence anyway once the horde showed up.

Plus IMO it's more realistic in the setting that the losers in a coup, having been accused of high treason, would have to die, be it the Warden or Loghain.  The GW thing throws in a wild card, similar to going to the Wall in SoIaF, because it's a death sentence in itself, but what is the use of putting a man like Loghain in prison?  If you're going to spare him, put him to use.

They know that the horde is coming and evacuate the city so they'd evacuate the prison, too. Anora is locked up if she's not the Queen and yet if Alistair dies we can see she's made it through just fine.

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...
No one is saying that everyone who kills Loghain does so just to please Alistair. There are people who say that Alistair is their reason that they kill him (some even say they would spare him if it didn't mean losing him). Maybe they also have non-Alistair reasons to do so but if they specifically cite Alistair as the only reason mentioned to kill him then it's not exaggerating to say that some people do do that.

There are people who have said that they would love to spare Loghain but they've spent the whole game building Alistair's stats and Loghain's suck so they kill him for purely game mechanic reasons. Acknowledging this isn't being condescending. Some people don't RP as deeply or don't care enough about the decision to let petty things like stats or not wanting a party member to get mad at you (and if it's just that and not thinking he's right or deserves vengeance then it is petty) be their motivator. That doesn't apply to you and it doesn't apply to many others who kill Loghain and like Alistair but it does apply to some people and THEY are who we were talking about.

I did the duel with Loghain on my first playthrough, and at that point I executed him because he seemed to be kind of a one-note villian, even though his conversation with Anora is quite touching. Every time after that I've let Alistair duel him, mostly because gameplay-wise, Alistair is the one being put forward as king and needs to prove himself. Whatever happens after that is not on my hands.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
No one is saying that everyone who kills Loghain does so just to please Alistair. There are people who say that Alistair is their reason that they kill him (some even say they would spare him if it didn't mean losing him). Maybe they also have non-Alistair reasons to do so but if they specifically cite Alistair as the only reason mentioned to kill him then it's not exaggerating to say that some people do do that.

There are people who have said that they would love to spare Loghain but they've spent the whole game building Alistair's stats and Loghain's suck so they kill him for purely game mechanic reasons. Acknowledging this isn't being condescending. Some people don't RP as deeply or don't care enough about the decision to let petty things like stats or not wanting a party member to get mad at you (and if it's just that and not thinking he's right or deserves vengeance then it is petty) be their motivator. That doesn't apply to you and it doesn't apply to many others who kill Loghain and like Alistair but it does apply to some people and THEY are who we were talking about.

I did the duel with Loghain on my first playthrough, and at that point I executed him because he seemed to be kind of a one-note villian, even though his conversation with Anora is quite touching. Every time after that I've let Alistair duel him, mostly because gameplay-wise, Alistair is the one being put forward as king and needs to prove himself. Whatever happens after that is not on my hands.

That really doesn't sound like a 'I just want to make Alistair happy' reason plus you also mentioned earlier that you felt it was hypocritical to take vengeance on Howe and deny him his on Loghain.

I'm really not putting everyone who even remotely considers Alistair's feelings into a box and labelling it wrong, you know. I happen to think Alistair executing Loghain to conclusively deal with the rebellion or to prove he's a strong leader is a far more valid reason than just not wanting to lose him as a party member.

Edit: So basically, if I'm not actually talking about you then there's no need to take it as an insult and if I am then I'm sure you already realize you don't have the most thought-out RP reasons for this decision.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 août 2010 - 07:48 .

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...
That really doesn't sound like a 'I just want to make Alistair happy' reason plus you also mentioned earlier that you felt it was hypocritical to take vengeance on Howe and deny him his on Loghain.

I'm really not putting everyone who even remotely considers Alistair's feelings into a box and labelling it wrong, you know. I happen to think Alistair executing Loghain to conclusively deal with the rebellion or to prove he's a strong leader is a far more valid reason than just not wanting to lose him as a party member.

There's that one too. There are many reasons why people wouldn't want to lose Alistair as a party member though. Loghain's stats are one, but you can also rp to put Alistair on the throne and granted, you can do that while still losing him, but not if you're also planning to be queen. If he's unhardened, you're queen, and choose to be his advisor, you'll have a lot of power. And if you're rp'ing a character in love with Alistair, then I don't see why that's also just as valid a reason to kill Loghain.

Alistair fangirls aside, it's not like there's a shortage of reasons to kill Loghain and keep Alistair.

[Spartas Husky]

Btw... can't find an online copy of "the calling" to read. Can anyone PM if they got the time, a short/long explanation of why loghain has bad blood with the Grey Wardens.



Whether is long or short I dont mind... hopefully long but an explanation either way would be lovely

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

A lot of people have said:
I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!
And then killed him!

Yeah, yeesh! The whole "Well, it's a toughie but if I don't smear his guts all over his daughter's face, Alistaaaaaaair will leave meeeeee!" (Exaggerated) scenario pisses me off to no end. I understand CE Wardens wanting to kill the Teyrn, just one example. But to allow it, merely because a supposed lover/friend (Who'll either leave in an immature huff or ditch you if you're nor noble born...irony there?) blackmails you into it? No way. I like Alistair. But he lost most of what little respect I had for him right then and there. Violence solves nothing. I especially refuse to kill an enemy who surrendered. (The Slaver being a seldom exception, given his warped offer to bribe me into it) Sorry, Alistair, your "Have fun ending the blight...or whatever!" line shows why I won't let you have your way here.

*Runs from the Alistair fangals*

Well as you admit, you're exaggerating, and rather condescendingly so.  As I said upthread, give your fellow players a little credit.  People who like Alistair probably agree with his outlook, so the fact that being an Alistair fan and offing Loghain more often than not go together is not necessarily excessive fangirlism.  Your "except for Caladrius" doesn't make a lot of sense, BTW.

Loghain committed numerous offenses that in a medievalish setting warrant his execution.  Alistair has perfectly sound logic as far as I'm concerned, though there is also logic for siding with Riordan.  Loghain certainly has no qualms about executing not just the Warden, but Alistair and Eamon, too, if it goes the other way.  The duel is really a separate matter than the execution, in my view.

I'll give Loghain this, he takes it like a man either way.  If I'd have had the option, I would have at least had him executed in private with more dignity.  There is justification for a public execution, though, considering the fact that you're trying to put down a civil war.

Let me explain this once more: I was talking about the extreme fangals and those who just do it to keep/please Alistair. They are like the Talimancers in the ME fandom. I explained why I sometimes make that exception. I have no more to add to it. We obviously disagree.

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

A lot of people have said:
I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!
And then killed him!

Yeah, yeesh! The whole "Well, it's a toughie but if I don't smear his guts all over his daughter's face, Alistaaaaaaair will leave meeeeee!" (Exaggerated) scenario pisses me off to no end. I understand CE Wardens wanting to kill the Teyrn, just one example. But to allow it, merely because a supposed lover/friend (Who'll either leave in an immature huff or ditch you if you're nor noble born...irony there?) blackmails you into it? No way. I like Alistair. But he lost most of what little respect I had for him right then and there. Violence solves nothing. I especially refuse to kill an enemy who surrendered. (The Slaver being a seldom exception, given his warped offer to bribe me into it) Sorry, Alistair, your "Have fun ending the blight...or whatever!" line shows why I won't let you have your way here.

*Runs from the Alistair fangals*

Well as you admit, you're exaggerating, and rather condescendingly so.  As I said upthread, give your fellow players a little credit.  People who like Alistair probably agree with his outlook, so the fact that being an Alistair fan and offing Loghain more often than not go together is not necessarily excessive fangirlism.  Your "except for Caladrius" doesn't make a lot of sense, BTW.

Loghain committed numerous offenses that in a medievalish setting warrant his execution.  Alistair has perfectly sound logic as far as I'm concerned, though there is also logic for siding with Riordan.  Loghain certainly has no qualms about executing not just the Warden, but Alistair and Eamon, too, if it goes the other way.  The duel is really a separate matter than the execution, in my view.

I'll give Loghain this, he takes it like a man either way.  If I'd have had the option, I would have at least had him executed in private with more dignity.  There is justification for a public execution, though, considering the fact that you're trying to put down a civil war.

No one is saying that everyone who kills Loghain does so just to please Alistair. There are people who say that Alistair is their reason that they kill him (some even say they would spare him if it didn't mean losing him). Maybe they also have non-Alistair reasons to do so but if they specifically cite Alistair as the only reason mentioned to kill him then it's not exaggerating to say that some people do do that.

There are people who have said that they would love to spare Loghain but they've spent the whole game building Alistair's stats and Loghain's suck so they kill him for purely game mechanic reasons. Acknowledging this isn't being condescending. Some people don't RP as deeply or don't care enough about the decision to let petty things like stats or not wanting a party member to get mad at you (and if it's just that and not thinking he's right or deserves vengeance then it is petty) be their motivator. That doesn't apply to you and it doesn't apply to many others who kill Loghain and like Alistair but it does apply to some people and THEY are who we were talking about.

Yes, exactly. Character Respec Mods should take care of at least part of it though. Now every time I spare Loghain, he's the great fighter he's supposed to be.:innocent:

[SirGladiator]

I generally don't end up killing Loghain, but it isn't because he isn't evil or that I don't hate his character, it's simply because he's useful to have around in the final fight. If the final battle were already over and I were presented with the option, I'd execute him every time. But you're basicly given the choice of execute the evil guy who is a great fighter, or let the guy join your Grey Warden group in the final battle, a group that is down to only 3 people and desperately needs help. With that as a choice, its much harder, from a RP perspective, to turn down that kind of help knowing how tough a battle its supposed to be. But certainly if that weren't a factor, if it were just 'was Loghain justified in causing the deaths of all those innocent people at Ostagar as well as all his other evil acts?' my answer would totally be 'no, execute him' every single time.

[Persephone]

SirGladiator wrote...

I generally don't end up killing Loghain, but it isn't because he isn't evil or that I don't hate his character, it's simply because he's useful to have around in the final fight. If the final battle were already over and I were presented with the option, I'd execute him every time. But you're basicly given the choice of execute the evil guy who is a great fighter, or let the guy join your Grey Warden group in the final battle, a group that is down to only 3 people and desperately needs help. With that as a choice, its much harder, from a RP perspective, to turn down that kind of help knowing how tough a battle its supposed to be. But certainly if that weren't a factor, if it were just 'was Loghain justified in causing the deaths of all those innocent people at Ostagar as well as all his other evil acts?' my answer would totally be 'no, execute him' every single time.

Have you read the novels?

Also, being a ruler means having to make unpleasant decisions. Many of them. You can see how this is eating away at him, how he is not petty and evil like Howe. I'm not trying to excuse his actions, merely saying that there are two sides to every coin. Are the Wardens who keep the anvil, kill the elves, don't save the Alienage & Redcliffe...(And many players do this. For many reasons) any better? No. They do it out of pragmatism, mostly.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Considering he came up with the plan (which was based on a strategy he used in Gwaren) I think Loghain bares blame for the failure at Ostagar.

If Cailan ordered him to come up with a battle plan then he would have had to have come up with a plan even if he knew full well that it wasn't a good enough one to win with the forces they had to work with but it was the best he could do under the circumstances. Just because he made the plan doesn't mean it was going to be enough. Not to mention that the plan was crafted with less darkspawn in mind.

Cailan and Loghain were arguing before the Warden comes to Ostagar, but we really don't have all the facts. All we know is that Cailan and the Ostagar troops followed Loghain's plan. I don't think it was crafted with less darkspawn in mind. Duncan mentions that the darkspawn are increasing with each attack. Loghain, prior to battle, had Eamon poisoned and planned to usurp control from Cailan. He wanted to have someone in the tower so he wouldn't have to attack (which is why he forged an alliance with Uldred). He may have been wary of Orlesian soldiers, but why not suggest to get more mages from the tower instead of the Orlesians to turn the tide of battle? Considering that he would need to see the beacon lit to know when to attack, no one can say that Loghain refused to participate because there were too many. The beacon was the only signal for him to know when his army would be needed.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Let me explain this once more: I was talking about the extreme fangals and those who just do it to keep/please Alistair. They are like the Talimancers in the ME fandom. I explained why I sometimes make that exception. I have no more to add to it. We obviously disagree.

I often hear such characterizations about Alistair fangirls, but haven't encountered any of them personally.  And I have no idea what "Talimancers" are supposed to be like.   If it seems useful to you to disparage other players...  *shrug*

Back to the OP, I think the characterization of Loghain in-game could actually have been deeper.  It's too bad we didn't get to see his Fade dream, even if we saw something like that in a cutscene.  I felt like the game gives you very little, outside of a respect for ruthlessness, on which to base a regard of Loghain.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Let me explain this once more: I was talking about the extreme fangals and those who just do it to keep/please Alistair. They are like the Talimancers in the ME fandom. I explained why I sometimes make that exception. I have no more to add to it. We obviously disagree.

I often hear such characterizations about Alistair fangirls, but haven't encountered any of them personally.  And I have no idea what "Talimancers" are supposed to be like.   If it seems useful to you to disparage other players...  *shrug*

Back to the OP, I think the characterization of Loghain in-game could actually have been deeper.  It's too bad we didn't get to see his Fade dream, even if we saw something like that in a cutscene.  I felt like the game gives you very little, outside of a respect for ruthlessness, on which to base a regard of Loghain.

Talimancers is a Mass Effect reference.

Is there any information on the Loghain Fade scene?

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Talimancers is a Mass Effect reference.

Is there any information on the Loghain Fade scene?

Loghain doesn't get a Fade scene because you can't do the Circle Tower after you get him. I think her point was that it would provide insight into him if he did have such a scene.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Talimancers is a Mass Effect reference.

I'm aware of who Tali is, but the "OMG the Tali fans" reminds me a lot of the "OMG the Alistair fans" you sometimes hear, so I'm skeptical of dismissing people that way.  Although there is some irony that people talk about "fangirls" as if women are the only ones who wig out over video game romance characters.  I digress!

Is there any information on the Loghain Fade scene?

Apparently it's in the toolset and involves a child Cailan.  Loghain did help to raise Cailan, so that makes sense.

I guess in some of the earlier conceptions of the game we were meant to be able to go to Denerim early in the game and you could choose to have Alistair or Loghain as party member during the treaty quests?  That's my understanding from what people have puzzled out from the toolset.

[DragonRacer13]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Talimancers is a Mass Effect reference.

Is there any information on the Loghain Fade scene?

Loghain doesn't get a Fade scene because you can't do the Circle Tower after you get him. I think her point was that it would provide insight into him if he did have such a scene.

Actually, he did have a Fade scene, but it never made it far. I remember Phaonica finding it in the toolset, some scripting or dialogue or something for Loghain to have a Fade nightmare that involved Maric and a kid-aged Cailan. So, it seems they were originally intending us to have the option of recruiting Loghain earlier than the final version of the game.

I don't remember the specifics of that scene-that-never-was. You might want to message Phaonica about it, see if she can provide what's in the toolset. I can't, as I'm one of those dirty console players. lol

[Monica21]

DragonRacer13 wrote...
Actually, he did have a Fade scene, but it never made it far. I remember Phaonica finding it in the toolset, some scripting or dialogue or something for Loghain to have a Fade nightmare that involved Maric and a kid-aged Cailan. So, it seems they were originally intending us to have the option of recruiting Loghain earlier than the final version of the game.

I don't remember the specifics of that scene-that-never-was. You might want to message Phaonica about it, see if she can provide what's in the toolset. I can't, as I'm one of those dirty console players. lol

See? This is what I get for not playing DA in months.

[CalJones]

I think it's sad the option to recruit Loghain early didn't happen - I'd have loved that.

Hmm, Loghain needs a proper squee thread, doesn't he?

[nikki191]

its good story telling to have a deep villian rather than a flat bad guy.. loghain vs the archdemon.. loghain easiely is a better bad guy, and mis understood..

[DragonRacer13]

CalJones wrote...

I think it's sad the option to recruit Loghain early didn't happen - I'd have loved that.
Hmm, Loghain needs a proper squee thread, doesn't he?

I agree on both points! But a Loghain Squee Thread, I fear, would keep us more occupied in trying to keep riff-raff out than actually being able to engage in proper squeeing. There are a few stalwarts among the community here, but are we enough to circle the wagons and stay on the defensive? (Then again, we seem to hold our own well enough when every other thread inevitably descends into Loghain love/hate debates... he does seem to be the Alpha and Omega here!  )

[Irish Guerrilla]

Addai67 wrote...

Back to the OP, I think the characterization of Loghain in-game could actually have been deeper.  It's too bad we didn't get to see his Fade dream, even if we saw something like that in a cutscene.  I felt like the game gives you very little, outside of a respect for ruthlessness, on which to base a regard of Loghain.

I agree, but I'm sure it's tough for the creators to keep the gameplay as engaging as the story.  I actually enjoyed reading Gaider's books as much as playing the game, but wouldn't have read them if not for such an amazing gaming experience. 

I'm not sure if I'm alone here, but the Fade sequences were among my least favorite quests during Origins.  Maybe because I'm more into linear gameplay and the puzzle sequences threw a short hitch in my progression, I don't know.  Fade gameplay seemed a bit grinding, whereas the rest of the game was smoothly flowing.  The various demons were fantastic though.  So, although I would've loved to learn more about Loghain during the game, I'd prefer it in reality, not the Fade.

Now to completely contradict myself, I loved the Fade sequence in Awakening!  Go figure.

[Sarah1281]

Oh no, pretty much everyone hates the Fade. Why do you think the 'Skip the Fade' mod is so popular?

[Irish Guerrilla]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh no, pretty much everyone hates the Fade. Why do you think the 'Skip the Fade' mod is so popular?

I guess I'm showing my ignorance.  Is this mod only for PC gamers?  I assume my 360 version is not this easily manipulated.  Now that I'm remembering, I also hated the Fade because of transforming into various forms just to proceed.  I loved the gameplay with my character leading his merry band, not changing into a mouse to crawl through holes.  Again, story driven gameplay must be hard to always keep up with, but I hope similar sequences are missing from DA2.

Upon googling this mod, I saw that other people were begging for a mod to skip The Deep Road sequences as well.  Crazy!  I loved these quests, and "The Calling" makes one realize how frightening and morally crushing these roads are. 

[CalJones]

I think the thing about the Fade is that you're there on your own - no companion interaction. I did like the forms - I always miss having them immediately after leaving the Fade - but you're right, it is a bit of a grind.

Still, I'm not awfully keen on the Deep Roads either. They're just so...brown. And dark, and the thought of my Warden having to die there depresses me. Well, aside from my dwarves...they'd rather die there than under an open sky, I suppose. But I think my other wardens will find another way to die, under the sky of their homeland, if at all possible.

Kal Hirol is much nicer to play through, actually - it's a bit lighter, and more diverse, visually. Cadash Thaig isn't so bad either. At least it has nice green parts (even if that's lichen and not grass). But the main Deep Roads are...grim.



DragonRacer - maybe rain of arrows and storm of the century will keep the blighters out, no? Failing that, some naked Loghain fan art will suffice - I'm sure that will send his detractors running.

[DragonRacer13]

I'm off-and-on in regards to the Fade. Sometimes I get to that part and just drop my head like, "Well, there goes an hour of gameplay to grind through to get back to reality." Other times, I do enjoy it and occasionally look forward to it.
The Deep Roads, on the other hand, I hate. Just do not enjoy trudging through the endlessness. Don't enjoy it in the game. Didn't enjoy it in the books (enjoyed the characters and their interactions, just not so much the atmosphere). It's a chore. Which I know is the whole point to the Deep Roads, being all abandoned and claustrophobia-inducing and crawling with nasties. But I still just don't like it. Feels like I can breeze through the rest of the game... and then I come to Orzammar a.k.a. The Grinding Halt. And I feel trapped sorting out their politics and Deep Roads for a month.

[DragonRacer13]

CalJones wrote...
DragonRacer - maybe rain of arrows and storm of the century will keep the blighters out, no? Failing that, some naked Loghain fan art will suffice - I'm sure that will send his detractors running.

I can get behind that!