12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There have been plenty of leaders in human history who simply named an heir when they felt they had to.

Having a child may be nice to assure a new leader but a good leader can simply name their heir.

But the problem again is that Ferelden doesn't have an absolute monarch. My impression has always been that the Theirin (or Cousland) line are the only ones that the nobles all can agree on given the respective histories of said line with regard to Ferelden.

Anyone else been apointed especially with regard to a queen who herself is only 1 generation raised from the commoner ranks is ASKING for the nobles to react poorly. Unless she appoints Fergus, who is of the same age as her, I doubt the Landsmeet will react favourably...

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

There's an interesting short story I just read in the Warriors anthology. I'll try to be vague so as not to spoil if anyone reads that (which you should- it's pretty good), but... aliens are invading earth and find that unlike other planets, earthlings continue to fight them even when it means certain doom. The alien sociologists reason that it is because humans align themselves in families, and slightly larger extensions of that (clans), and they will fight to protect their families even if it means that the race as a whole is extinguished. Less individualistic species would surrender and be made client races. It was an interesting picture, I think fairly insightful.

Is it the one by G.R.R. Martin?

No, it's by David Weber, called "Out of the Dark."  It's not my favorite of the anthology, but had an interesting perspective, as I said.  GRRM's was called "The Mystery Knight," one of the Dunk and Egg stories.

Speaking of stories , I published chapter 32 of The Arrangement last night.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bleachrude wrote...

But the problem again is that Ferelden doesn't have an absolute monarch. My impression has always been that the Theirin (or Cousland) line are the only ones that the nobles all can agree on given the respective histories of said line with regard to Ferelden.

Anyone else been apointed especially with regard to a queen who herself is only 1 generation raised from the commoner ranks is ASKING for the nobles to react poorly. Unless she appoints Fergus, who is of the same age as her, I doubt the Landsmeet will react favourably...

Not really. Anora, even before Landsmeet, has been a popular queen with the Bannorn, and she enjoyed their support. The whole Therin bloodline issue is a prime example of what I am saying, the often foolish fascination with a particular bloodline, despite that bloodline not really being remarkable, nor does it have a history of producing exceptional leaders. In fact, the Therin bloodline has barely been a unifier, only during times of crisis. When you look at the history of the Therins, from Calenhad, weren't very impressive, and we see even with them in chargem the Bannorn and the nobility have still engaged in so much internal fighting, that the unification factor of the Therin symbolism is weak, at best.

Eamon supports it because he's a conservative twit who values such things like proper bloodlines. But more importantly, Eamon is pushing Alistair because Eamon wants to be the power behind the throne, and has basically screwed Alistair up enough mentally that he is confident he can control and manipulate him.

Further evidence that Eamon is out for himself comes from Witch Hunt. If Redcliffe was defended from the undead and saved in Origins, it states that the Bannorn is starting to rally behind the Arling of Redcliffe instead of the crown in Denerim, no matter who you choose for the throne. So as far as I'm concerned, Eamons motivations are largely self interested, though I'm sure he might genuinely believe in the importance of pedigree.

regardless, the Therin bloodline has shown to weak, even in it's symbolism, and has produced mostly average or substandard kings, hence why Ferelden is so backwards. It's time to ditch such old failed systems that inhibit progress and prosperity. Thus, it is why both my canon's feature Anora as sole ruler, despite my great fondness for Alistair as a character. A smart male Warden marrying Anora, or a smart female Warden entering a political marriage with Alistair for power certainly could produce much better results, depending on the type of Warden. But since that option is only limited to one origin out of 6, and is only one of many possibilities, cannonically, I don't think it will change the future of throne much.

[Mike3207]

Bleachrude wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There have been plenty of leaders in human history who simply named an heir when they felt they had to.

Having a child may be nice to assure a new leader but a good leader can simply name their heir.

But the problem again is that Ferelden doesn't have an absolute monarch. My impression has always been that the Theirin (or Cousland) line are the only ones that the nobles all can agree on given the respective histories of said line with regard to Ferelden.

Anyone else been apointed especially with regard to a queen who herself is only 1 generation raised from the commoner ranks is ASKING for the nobles to react poorly. Unless she appoints Fergus, who is of the same age as her, I doubt the Landsmeet will react favourably...

That may have been true in the past, but I don't think that's currently true. The actions the Theirins have recently taken have taken the bloom of the rose. In some playthroughs the death of Alistair may even bring an end to the Theirin line, and the nobles can go in a different direction.

About Anora-that's why she views a Cailand marriage as an opportunity. She realizes it will help her to tie her to house to one of the older families in Ferelden.

@ Skadi-you're assuming an awful lot. You're assuming the Warden goes through the Mirror and disappears in the events of Witch Hunt. That's not always the case. If you don't go through the mirror, you go back to your previous life. Of course, that's an assumption as well. The canon doesn't say anything about children, but it's quiet on a lot of things. I think it's possible that the possible death of Alistair/Anora might be the cause of the Warden's disappearance in 10 years time. As for Anders, I think the timeline is pretty close(without looking at it).The events in Awakenings occur 6 months after the Blight, and he appears 1 year after the destruction of Lothering. It may be he goes to Kirkwall right after Awakening. The only thing we know for certain is that the Warden disappears 10 years after the Blight.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 01 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No, the DA2 timeline is completely borked in regards to Anders. In origins, it is mentioned a year has passed, as far as from the beginning on. In both dwarf origins, as well as the mage origin, it is stated in various places that nearly a year has passed since you left your origin. (have no idea about elven origins, since I've never played an elf, even as a mage. Human noble doesn't state anything in particular. Awakenings takes place 6 months after the start of origins. So for Anders to have been recruited by, or even encountered the Warden at Vigil's keep in the first place, a minum of a year and a half (without recruiting him) has passed. The events of Awakening take place over about a 4-6 month period. So, by the end of Awakenings, about 2 years have passed. Yet Hawke meets Anders well before the DAO and Awakenings timeline should allow you too, especially as he's set himself up a Clinic. There's a few other examples of timepline problems with DA2, and given the other retcons or liberties taken, I do not hold much faith in the tinmeline presented.

But as far as children go, I think Gaider or one of the developers long ago said it pretty much wasn't gonna happen, regardless. The Warden is not only near infertile, but Anora is also rumored to be barren, though whether or not it's true is anyone's guess, as there are certainly reasons why it might only be an assumption. Regardless, outside of the realm of fan fic, there are no heirs produced regardless of who sits on the throne. and it was specifically left open that way.

As far as the Warden disappearing, why do people only assume it must be a male Warden that steps through the mirror. Yet for those who didn't go through, Morrigan leaves a little "present" for the Warden. We never find out what it was, but given everything else and the fact that Morrigan is involved with something bigger and beyond Thedas and the Fade, whatever she left is likely involved with the non-romanced Warden's disappearance. It is unlikely any Warden returns to their "normal lives", sinbce they have been so heavily involved with Morrigan and Flemmeth especially.

Anyway, regarding the Therin bloodline, it's not as important as you think. Yes, some influential nobles like Eamon put stock in it's importance. However, it seems alot of people aren't that bothered if Anora becomes sole queen. In fact, if you talk to the rumor mill, you find people are mostly pleased that Anora has remained queen solo. If Alistair was crowned alone, people are uncertain because he's an unknown bastard. Anora's recognition of the usefulness of marrying Alistair seems based on pure pragmatism, a way to get her foot in the door, but she still doesn't put much stock in it, either. And really, given the Bannorn, most of them really don't care beyond lip service. They are more interested in killing one another over dog names and apple trees. Very few really seem to care much about the Therin line. Hell, in the Stolen throne, even most of the nobility had to be threatened, bribed, or coereced to back the rebellion.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Not really. Anora, even before Landsmeet, has been a popular queen with the Bannorn, and she enjoyed their support. The whole Therin bloodline issue is a prime example of what I am saying, the often foolish fascination with a particular bloodline, despite that bloodline not really being remarkable, nor does it have a history of producing exceptional leaders. In fact, the Therin bloodline has barely been a unifier, only during times of crisis. When you look at the history of the Therins, from Calenhad, weren't very impressive, and we see even with them in chargem the Bannorn and the nobility have still engaged in so much internal fighting, that the unification factor of the Therin symbolism is weak, at best.

Eamon supports it because he's a conservative twit who values such things like proper bloodlines. But more importantly, Eamon is pushing Alistair because Eamon wants to be the power behind the throne, and has basically screwed Alistair up enough mentally that he is confident he can control and manipulate him.

That could explain why Arl Eamon returns to Redcliffe if a personality hardened King Alistair married Queen Anora.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Further evidence that Eamon is out for himself comes from Witch Hunt. If Redcliffe was defended from the undead and saved in Origins, it states that the Bannorn is starting to rally behind the Arling of Redcliffe instead of the crown in Denerim, no matter who you choose for the throne. So as far as I'm concerned, Eamons motivations are largely self interested, though I'm sure he might genuinely believe in the importance of pedigree.

The Bannorn is turning to the Arl of Redcliffe for guidance based on the information from the map in Witch Hunt, but we also know that King Alistair and Queen Anora can prove to be a popular pairing among the people of the nation, so unless The Warden left the nation in the hands of a personality unhardened Alistair, I don't see what Eamon can do. Alone, Queen Anora can build a university and refill the royal coffers, while Alistair can place the elder of the Alienage at the royal court despite the scandal it causes, so I don't see what Eamon's ultimate goal could be, especially since his only heir is a mage who can't legally inherit his title or his arling because of Chantry law.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

regardless, the Therin bloodline has shown to weak, even in it's symbolism, and has produced mostly average or substandard kings, hence why Ferelden is so backwards. It's time to ditch such old failed systems that inhibit progress and prosperity. Thus, it is why both my canon's feature Anora as sole ruler, despite my great fondness for Alistair as a character. A smart male Warden marrying Anora, or a smart female Warden entering a political marriage with Alistair for power certainly could produce much better results, depending on the type of Warden. But since that option is only limited to one origin out of 6, and is only one of many possibilities, cannonically, I don't think it will change the future of throne much.

I think a personality hardened Alistair can also provide good results with Queen Anora. Seperately, they have a lot of admirable goals, and I see no reason they can't achieve those goals together, especially since Alistair trusts Anora's decisions (based on the Epilogue slide where he surprises her by deferring to her judgement). The only problem I see with The Warden is the developers making him a 'Nevarine' type who is being mentioned as doing something (even if it contradicts what the player would want their protagonist to do) but isn't seen.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No, the DA2 timeline is completely borked in regards to Anders.

Given Oghren's miracle baby who seemed to be born in six months, I'd say the timeline is borked. At least Loghain seems to still be alive. If Dragon Age 3 takes place in Orlais, I wonder if he'll be implemented into the storyline as a Grey Warden.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

In origins, it is mentioned a year has passed, as far as from the beginning on. In both dwarf origins, as well as the mage origin, it is stated in various places that nearly a year has passed since you left your origin. (have no idea about elven origins, since I've never played an elf, even as a mage. Human noble doesn't state anything in particular. Awakenings takes place 6 months after the start of origins. So for Anders to have been recruited by, or even encountered the Warden at Vigil's keep in the first place, a minum of a year and a half (without recruiting him) has passed. The events of Awakening take place over about a 4-6 month period. So, by the end of Awakenings, about 2 years have passed. Yet Hawke meets Anders well before the DAO and Awakenings timeline should allow you too, especially as he's set himself up a Clinic. There's a few other examples of timepline problems with DA2, and given the other retcons or liberties taken, I do not hold much faith in the tinmeline presented.

The timeline isn't the only thing that's borked; if Anders was not recruited by The Warden, he somehow meets Justice even if the Spirit of Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes. I'm guessing the "it was a tale being told" presentation of Dragon Age 2 will allow the future rectons to be explained away much easier than the rectons from Origins.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

But as far as children go, I think Gaider or one of the developers long ago said it pretty much wasn't gonna happen, regardless. The Warden is not only near infertile, but Anora is also rumored to be barren, though whether or not it's true is anyone's guess, as there are certainly reasons why it might only be an assumption. Regardless, outside of the realm of fan fic, there are no heirs produced regardless of who sits on the throne. and it was specifically left open that way.

I agree that there aren't likely to be any heirs (and that seems to be the case with many of the royal families in Ferelden having lost their heirs - Eamon to the Circle of Magi, Cousland to Arl Howe, the Howes being killed off for the most part and the two adult survivors losing Amaranthine), but The Warden can pretty easily impregnate Morrigan even without the dark ritual being implemented, so I don't think he's "near infertile."

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

As far as the Warden disappearing, why do people only assume it must be a male Warden that steps through the mirror.

The disappearance seems to be a seperate issue from the Eluvian, since roughly ten years have passed since that time. I can imagine how amusing it would be for the Arl of Amaranthine to return with a known apostate and a love child, especially for the Chantry. The Chantry loves apostates, after all.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Anyway, regarding the Therin bloodline, it's not as important as you think. Yes, some influential nobles like Eamon put stock in it's importance. However, it seems alot of people aren't that bothered if Anora becomes sole queen.

Anora's presence as Alistair's Queen also puts an end to a lot of the problems that would arise if he took the throne alone, since he's an illegitimate son of King Maric.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I agree that there aren't likely to be any heirs (and that seems to be the case with many of the royal families in Ferelden having lost their heirs ... Cousland to Arl Howe ...

Fergus Lives!! 

[Mike3207]

Only male Wardens can do the ritual with Morrigan, so only they would disappear in WH.BTW, can you provide a link to where it says there will be no royal children?

@Bleachrude-I don't think mages can inherit titles. I'm not sure Connor will be able to inherit from Arl Eamon.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 01 août 2011 - 08:45 .

[Bleachrude]

re: Eamon

Not sure Eamon is responsible for the bannorn rallying behing Redcliffe...

Remember, he's chancellor anytime Alistair becomes King and leaves the arling to Teagan...

Personally, I don't think it makes sense for Eamon to be seen as "out for himself" ironically BECAUSE he wanted to push Anora out.

If Anora didn't have a kid with Cailan, then it actually strengthen Connor's claim for the throne as he's 2 and a half decades younger than Cailan/Anora..Even though the game makes Eamon look older than Loghain, he's supposed to be about a decade younger than Loghain/Maric/Rowena

It would actually make more sense for Eamon not to say anything and just wait 1 more decade and let the rest of the bannorn start to get agitated about no heir. Eamon is no fool and would realize this.

[Mike3207]

Ok, I read the David Gaider thread where he said it was impossible for 2 Wardens married to each other to have children, but it was possible for a single Warden in a marriage to have children. It also mentioned they might have less than 30 years depending on various circumstances.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Eamon

Not sure Eamon is responsible for the bannorn rallying behing Redcliffe...

Remember, he's chancellor anytime Alistair becomes King and leaves the arling to Teagan...

Personally, I don't think it makes sense for Eamon to be seen as "out for himself" ironically BECAUSE he wanted to push Anora out.

If Anora didn't have a kid with Cailan, then it actually strengthen Connor's claim for the throne as he's 2 and a half decades younger than Cailan/Anora..Even though the game makes Eamon look older than Loghain, he's supposed to be about a decade younger than Loghain/Maric/Rowena

It would actually make more sense for Eamon not to say anything and just wait 1 more decade and let the rest of the bannorn start to get agitated about no heir. Eamon is no fool and would realize this.

Connor is a mage. He has zero chance of having the throne. Mages can't inherit titles and land (and it's even debatable if they exist legally as human beings as far as the Chantry and many commoners are concerned). So as a mage, he's not even an issue. Hell, he'll be lucky if he doesn't accidentally die in a Circle Annulment before 40, given where the whole Chantry/Mage issue is going. Hell, that was half of the reason isolde kept Connor's magic hidden and hired Jowan: because being a mage meant he was completely out of the game.

[nicethugbert]

Loghain's trecherous depth earns him the shallowest grave.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 août 2011 - 12:58 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given Oghren's miracle baby who seemed to be born in six months, I'd say the timeline is borked. At least Loghain seems to still be alive. If Dragon Age 3 takes place in Orlais, I wonder if he'll be implemented into the storyline as a Grey Warden.

Unlikely Bioware will bother to ressurect him, unlike other characters it assumed we wanted to see again despite killing. I think Loghain will not return, though it would be pretty awesome to run into him as a Warden in Orlais. Also, I think Loggy only has limited time left if he's still alive.

The timeline isn't the only thing that's borked; if Anders was not recruited by The Warden, he somehow meets Justice even if the Spirit of Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes. I'm guessing the "it was a tale being told" presentation of Dragon Age 2 will allow the future rectons to be explained away much easier than the rectons from Origins.

God, don't get me started on the crap. Yeah, been reading the DA2 forums, and soon, my own copy of the fun shall begin. But yeah, there's alot of WTF....wait a minute...who are you and why are you here moments and time borkage.

I agree that there aren't likely to be any heirs (and that seems to be the case with many of the royal families in Ferelden having lost their heirs - Eamon to the Circle of Magi, Cousland to Arl Howe, the Howes being killed off for the most part and the two adult survivors losing Amaranthine), but The Warden can pretty easily impregnate Morrigan even without the dark ritual being implemented, so I don't think he's "near infertile."

Close enough that it's a pretty uncommon, unusual event. As far as Morrigan getting knocked up without the dark ritual if she slept with the Warden.....this is Morrigan we are talking about. She is, in herself, very much an unknown wild card in many ways. We already know she posseses knowledge of how to distill a tainted archdemon soul. But as far as the Wardens go...in the Calling, when Fiona brought her kid to Maric, even she said it was a pretty unusual thing for a Warden to concieve, especially from just doing it only once or twice. When one considers all the "mechanics" involved in making an heir, with a Warden, it would require frequent attempts. Very frequent. Something that Anora will unlikely be terribly enthused about, even if she is on good terms with the Warden. She really does prefer to go at things alone.

The disappearance seems to be a seperate issue from the Eluvian, since roughly ten years have passed since that time. I can imagine how amusing it would be for the Arl of Amaranthine to return with a known apostate and a love child, especially for the Chantry. The Chantry loves apostates, after all.

Not to mention the deep rooted magophobia everywhere, especially of "godless heathens" like Morrigan. The Warden's child with Morrigan, regardless of it's an OGB or not, will unlikely be the heir to anything as mundane as ferelden's throne.

Does it specifically state in DA2 when exactly the Warden was realized to have "disappeared"?

Anora's presence as Alistair's Queen also puts an end to a lot of the problems that would arise if he took the throne alone, since he's an illegitimate son of King Maric.

But there's more to ruling than just that. My point was basically, it was better to move on to at the very least, a new dynasty. The Therin bloodline is an istitution that has been holding Ferelden back. And Alistair didn't really want it that much. Even hardened, he's quite happy to dodge the bullet if you chose to do so.

[Mike3207]

The Wikia says Varric was interviewed in 940, 10 years after the Blight. The Warden(or they say Warden-Commander) was said to be definitely disappeared by this time by Leliana.I don't agree about Anora, but I'll let that one go.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, but before this, is what I'm talking about. It's one thing to say the warden has disappeared, especially if this had already happened years before the interview. I remember watching on You Tube the Warden Alistair cameo, which was during Act 2, if I'm not mistaken. What Alistair says, and when he gives Hawke the Warden's Oath pendant that belonged to the Warden, it looked like he was strongly implying he did not know the Warden's whereabouts at that time. And of course, the particular playthrough in question was imported where the Warden in question was also his LI in Origins, so it stands to reason he of all people, would know their whereabouts, if they hadn't just "vanished".

This is the sort of thing I am refering to, possible earlier references to the Warden's disappearance. I think it varies on playthrough and import, which is why I'm saying the timeline looks more and more broked. I have also seen playthroughs where the warden had stepped through the Mirror with Morrigan well before he is still refered to as being king-consort or whatever still in Ferelden. When one considers that Witch Hunt is only about 2-4 years after Awakening, which isonly about a year and a hald after Origins (and thus, DA2) begin. Yet in Act three towards the end he's still sitting on the throne doing whatever. Even though he should be vanished.

DA) and DA2 begin pretty much about the same time, around the Battle of Ostagar, which was in 9:30 Dragon. So Varrick is interviewed 10 years after the beginning, not the end of the Blight. The Blight lasted roughly a little over a year, after which, the Warden goes on to become whatever (and those who chose a royal marriage would only take the position after the Blight ended. So, Minus 1 year, we now have 9. Awakenings is supposed to take place about 6 months after Origins, and is suggested to take about 4-6 months. That's now 2 years down out of 10. (As far as Oghren's child already being born, that's not so far fetched. It's quite possible that Oghren got felsi knocked up before they ever married, and this would explain why he ends up with her in Awakenings even if you didn't hook them up in origins. Oghren pretty much stated he was screwing felsi quite a bit after Branka split, giving plenty of opportunity for felsi to already have a little Oggy in the Cave, so to speak). Witch Hunt takes place about 2 years after Awakenings ends, according to the map information when you scroll over Vigil's keep. So basically, the Warden's disappearance through the Mirror (or due to Morry's little prezzie) takes place about 4 years after origins begins. So, yeah, technically, he or she should have already been vanished by Act 2, early on.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yes, but before this, is what I'm talking about. It's one thing to say the warden has disappeared, especially if this had already happened years before the interview. I remember watching on You Tube the Warden Alistair cameo, which was during Act 2, if I'm not mistaken. What Alistair says, and when he gives Hawke the Warden's Oath pendant that belonged to the Warden, it looked like he was strongly implying he did not know the Warden's whereabouts at that time. And of course, the particular playthrough in question was imported where the Warden in question was also his LI in Origins, so it stands to reason he of all people, would know their whereabouts, if they hadn't just "vanished".

This is the sort of thing I am refering to, possible earlier references to the Warden's disappearance. I think it varies on playthrough and import, which is why I'm saying the timeline looks more and more broked. I have also seen playthroughs where the warden had stepped through the Mirror with Morrigan well before he is still refered to as being king-consort or whatever still in Ferelden. When one considers that Witch Hunt is only about 2-4 years after Awakening, which isonly about a year and a hald after Origins (and thus, DA2) begin. Yet in Act three towards the end he's still sitting on the throne doing whatever. Even though he should be vanished.

DA) and DA2 begin pretty much about the same time, around the Battle of Ostagar, which was in 9:30 Dragon. So Varrick is interviewed 10 years after the beginning, not the end of the Blight. The Blight lasted roughly a little over a year, after which, the Warden goes on to become whatever (and those who chose a royal marriage would only take the position after the Blight ended. So, Minus 1 year, we now have 9. Awakenings is supposed to take place about 6 months after Origins, and is suggested to take about 4-6 months. That's now 2 years down out of 10. (As far as Oghren's child already being born, that's not so far fetched. It's quite possible that Oghren got felsi knocked up before they ever married, and this would explain why he ends up with her in Awakenings even if you didn't hook them up in origins. Oghren pretty much stated he was screwing felsi quite a bit after Branka split, giving plenty of opportunity for felsi to already have a little Oggy in the Cave, so to speak). Witch Hunt takes place about 2 years after Awakenings ends, according to the map information when you scroll over Vigil's keep. So basically, the Warden's disappearance through the Mirror (or due to Morry's little prezzie) takes place about 4 years after origins begins. So, yeah, technically, he or she should have already been vanished by Act 2, early on.

Mind. Blown.

So, this is what I'm going to have to deal with when I play?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...

Mind. Blown.

So, this is what I'm going to have to deal with when I play?

Yep, both of us will. When I play, I'm gonna see what kind of wiggle room there might be for some things. But it seems some of the timing and events are in direct conflict with one another. I am hoping it will not be too much of a headache, and if Bioware can ignore timelines, well, maybe I can to, at least as far as getting too much of a headache sorting things out.

[Mike3207]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yes, but before this, is what I'm talking about. It's one thing to say the warden has disappeared, especially if this had already happened years before the interview. I remember watching on You Tube the Warden Alistair cameo, which was during Act 2, if I'm not mistaken. What Alistair says, and when he gives Hawke the Warden's Oath pendant that belonged to the Warden, it looked like he was strongly implying he did not know the Warden's whereabouts at that time. And of course, the particular playthrough in question was imported where the Warden in question was also his LI in Origins, so it stands to reason he of all people, would know their whereabouts, if they hadn't just "vanished".

This is the sort of thing I am refering to, possible earlier references to the Warden's disappearance. I think it varies on playthrough and import, which is why I'm saying the timeline looks more and more broked. I have also seen playthroughs where the warden had stepped through the Mirror with Morrigan well before he is still refered to as being king-consort or whatever still in Ferelden. When one considers that Witch Hunt is only about 2-4 years after Awakening, which isonly about a year and a hald after Origins (and thus, DA2) begin. Yet in Act three towards the end he's still sitting on the throne doing whatever. Even though he should be vanished.

DA) and DA2 begin pretty much about the same time, around the Battle of Ostagar, which was in 9:30 Dragon. So Varrick is interviewed 10 years after the beginning, not the end of the Blight. The Blight lasted roughly a little over a year, after which, the Warden goes on to become whatever (and those who chose a royal marriage would only take the position after the Blight ended. So, Minus 1 year, we now have 9. Awakenings is supposed to take place about 6 months after Origins, and is suggested to take about 4-6 months. That's now 2 years down out of 10. (As far as Oghren's child already being born, that's not so far fetched. It's quite possible that Oghren got felsi knocked up before they ever married, and this would explain why he ends up with her in Awakenings even if you didn't hook them up in origins. Oghren pretty much stated he was screwing felsi quite a bit after Branka split, giving plenty of opportunity for felsi to already have a little Oggy in the Cave, so to speak). Witch Hunt takes place about 2 years after Awakenings ends, according to the map information when you scroll over Vigil's keep. So basically, the Warden's disappearance through the Mirror (or due to Morry's little prezzie) takes place about 4 years after origins begins. So, yeah, technically, he or she should have already been vanished by Act 2, early on.

IF he disappears in Witch Hunt. King Alistair mentions in his Cameo in Act 3 that they're expecting the Warden back in Denerim pretty soon, so he might also disappear in Act 3. One thing for sure, they'll hav difficulty integrating the timeline in DA3. I bet they let you import your save.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

That's what I was refering to, though. King Alistair still mentioning a Warden being in denerim waiting in Act 3, by which point, the warden in question had already stepped through the mirror years earlier, so he should not be waiting in Denerim or anywhere in thedas, as far as we know. Act 3, I believe, and this encounter in question, happens about 6-7 years after the beginning. I already pinpointed how the warden in question, in this case, should have been gone by year 4, 3 years prior to this encounter. Alistair shouldn;t have been expecting this warden (who had taken the chancellor boon) back in Denerim. By then, the Warden in question had already been vanished for 3 years, since he did go through the mirror.

Then there is Anders. Since most people recruited him in Awakening,, and given his backstory about the new warden Commander, the templar joining the wardens to watch him, and his eventual possession and escape, should have happened at the minimum, about 2 years and a few months after DAO and DA2 begin. The only way Anders timeline could come close to not being screwy is if you let Rylock have him, and he never becomes a Warden. That's still 1 year, six months from DA2's beginning. And the spirit of Justice still hasn't been encountered, let alone recruited or set to wander.

Anyway, yeah, DA3 is gonna be a nightmare to integrate, and if worse comes to worse, I'd rather they retconned DA2's inconsistancies than screw with the more reasonably established timeline of DAO.

[Bleachrude]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Eamon

Not sure Eamon is responsible for the bannorn rallying behing Redcliffe...

Remember, he's chancellor anytime Alistair becomes King and leaves the arling to Teagan...

Personally, I don't think it makes sense for Eamon to be seen as "out for himself" ironically BECAUSE he wanted to push Anora out.

If Anora didn't have a kid with Cailan, then it actually strengthen Connor's claim for the throne as he's 2 and a half decades younger than Cailan/Anora..Even though the game makes Eamon look older than Loghain, he's supposed to be about a decade younger than Loghain/Maric/Rowena

It would actually make more sense for Eamon not to say anything and just wait 1 more decade and let the rest of the bannorn start to get agitated about no heir. Eamon is no fool and would realize this.

Connor is a mage. He has zero chance of having the throne. Mages can't inherit titles and land (and it's even debatable if they exist legally as human beings as far as the Chantry and many commoners are concerned). So as a mage, he's not even an issue. Hell, he'll be lucky if he doesn't accidentally die in a Circle Annulment before 40, given where the whole Chantry/Mage issue is going. Hell, that was half of the reason isolde kept Connor's magic hidden and hired Jowan: because being a mage meant he was completely out of the game.

Er, sorry for being unclear...

At the time of when Eamon was pushing Cailan to leave Anora, Eamon did not know that Connor had magical powers.

If Eamon is truly out for himself, it makes more sense to position/push Connor as potential heir apparent.since Connor _IS_ Cailan's cousin...and being Connor's father, he would have a lot more influence than the potential roulette wheel that would be a new wife and potential heir of said union.

[DragonRacer13]

Skadi - I am not so great with following all these varying timelines between games/expansions, etc., but wanted to throw in some food for thought since, having not played DA2 yet, I'm not sure if you know this or not.

But Hawke and Family flee right after the battle of Ostagar has gone complete and total FUBAR. Not sure what the timespan is between them fleeing and arriving in Kirkwall. About three days pass while they are forced to wait to get INTO the city once they arrive at the gates. And then one year is spent either with mercs or with thieves paying back your debt for whichever group buying your way inside.

So, the real meat and potatoes of Act 1 (plus, meeting Anders), starts at least a year after fleeing Lothering.

FYI. Not sure if that helps reconciliate anything.   Does sound like, if Blight-ending took a year... and Hawke dicked around with mercs or thieves for a year, then it does seem Anders is inhabiting two places at the same time...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Skadi - I am not so great with following all these varying timelines between games/expansions, etc., but wanted to throw in some food for thought since, having not played DA2 yet, I'm not sure if you know this or not.

But Hawke and Family flee right after the battle of Ostagar has gone complete and total FUBAR. Not sure what the timespan is between them fleeing and arriving in Kirkwall. About three days pass while they are forced to wait to get INTO the city once they arrive at the gates. And then one year is spent either with mercs or with thieves paying back your debt for whichever group buying your way inside.

So, the real meat and potatoes of Act 1 (plus, meeting Anders), starts at least a year after fleeing Lothering.

FYI. Not sure if that helps reconciliate anything.   Does sound like, if Blight-ending took a year... and Hawke dicked around with mercs or thieves for a year, then it does seem Anders is inhabiting two places at the same time...

Yes, thank you for that. So basically, hawke runs into Anders when Anders should, in most games, be running around in Amaranthine and lovin it up with The Pounce. So definitely Anders timeline in DA2 is borked for certain, will have to see about other things.

But thanks for mentioning that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bleachrude wrote...
Er, sorry for being unclear...

At the time of when Eamon was pushing Cailan to leave Anora, Eamon did not know that Connor had magical powers.

If Eamon is truly out for himself, it makes more sense to position/push Connor as potential heir apparent.since Connor _IS_ Cailan's cousin...and being Connor's father, he would have a lot more influence than the potential roulette wheel that would be a new wife and potential heir of said union.

Not really. Eamon is one who likes to hold sway and influence over people, and Cailan was no exception. It is just as likely Eamon wanted Cailan to divorce Anora to get her out of the way, since Anora was clever and held more influence and control over Cailan than Eamon had. Anora and Cailan had only been married about 5 years when Cailan was killed at Ostagar. The letter from Eamon seems to predate that by a year at least, if not more. A little premature to start declaring the queen barren and suggesting divorce, even for a medieval society. Especially as Cailan himself had mistresses, yet has not produced any known bastards.

And given how he raised and treated Alistair as a child, even before isolde came into the picture, I find it difficult to see Eamon's motives as anything but self serving, though he might actually believe himself that he is doing what's best for everyone else while he does so. Eamon is the type of guy who thinks he knows better than anyone else, even if he's wrong.

As far as Connor as heir goes, it would have been stupid to try and use the kid to bid for the throne when Cailan was already alive, and Connor was still a baby. There was still plenty of time for Cailan to produce an heir at the time, it would have been stupid to start trying to directly challenge the throne at a time when it seemed stable and strong. Eamon might be backwards thinking and idiotically conservative in his views, but he is not an idiot.

And lets not even talk about Cailan's planned marriage to celene, something I'm pretty sure Eamon had some knowledge of.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And by the way, my copy of DA2 arrived today.



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I am now ready to join Anders and Justice in their crusade to punish Thedas for the unforgivable crime of having the Pounce taken from him. Shame I have to wait till the end of the game for him to do something awesome. <_<