12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain's political ineptness, at least, can be reasonably forgiven, when you consider everything.

Loghain would have eventually been able to beat the Blight if not for the fact Bioware introduced a last minute PLOT device related to the Wardens to reason why we had to defeat the Teyrn.

I haven't been able to get past that piece of **** writing, nor past the fact the Warden wins through sheer dumb luck at Denerim. How was Origins ever the height of storytelling? Seriously KOTOR 2 ( with all it's problems ) was a much better RPG.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 août 2011 - 09:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
I find it a bit funny that at one point you actually admired him (or at least liked him a lot).

Admire is too strong a word, but yes I did like him (and I liked act 2). For a lot of reasons.

First, his voice and demeanor are badass. And what he says sounds impressive. I especially like what he said about symptoms and causes. But also in large part because I ended up comparing him to Meredith and Orsino. Compared to them, he was developped. We saw his attitude change. I can actually say he is a character.

This is something I greatly appreciate and I still say that he was well-developped (as in we see him evolve) when compared to others.

But then when I started to think about it more, my liking to him decreased.
I felt he was in many ways hypocritical. But more importantly, and this goes to my views that a character is hard to be good in what I see as a bad / badly structured story. So looking back, I do not see why he was there. Too much "the Qun demands" to disguise "the plot demands". Complete incompetence at the battle (and after if you give him Isabela, that's just way too excessive)....etc etc. Reasons we probably already discussed....several times 

Ultimately, I didn't feel he provided much insight into the Qun, and I do not see why he was there.
Still, he is good when compared to the pile of failures Meredith and Orsino.

Oh and after  reading your comment on cme's blog *hugs* <3

You know I love you! Not in that way though... 

lol yes damn my physical imperfection

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain's political ineptness, at least, can be reasonably forgiven, when you consider everything.

Loghain would have eventually been able to beat the Blight if not for the fact Bioware introduced a last minute PLOT device related to the Wardens to reason why we had to defeat the Teyrn.

That's seems to be reversing things.

They introduced it last in the game, but I am reasonably sure they always had it in mind. I do not think they decided to just add it at the very end. And even if it did, it did not strip any character from his reason like the idiotic idol.

I do not think that being forced to fight Loghain was ****ty writing. That's like saying ME2 had ****ty writing for forcing us to side with Cerberus (and of course many people said that). Loghain pretty clearly saw you as an enemy, even if you didn't.

Origins had a lot of problems, but being forced to fight Loghain (you don't really fight him anyways, I make the transition of power as peaceful as possible) is not one of them for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I wanted to make a detailed response to that, but I'll just put in a blog. Simply put it has to do with the lack of reasoning a warden might have to decide to raise an army in the first place.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 août 2011 - 09:49 .

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Oh I believe you. Your opinion is shared by many here though. The game is really a hit or miss... on the Loggy thread it seems to be more of a miss though.

I think it may stem partially from us expecting another Loghain. And DA2 did not deliver in that regard. Closest thing that could is the Arishok, but he is not a person really, more like the physical manifestation of the Qun that he pulls out of rectum.  And for me, he ends up being a big miss.

I agree with that assessment - I was thinking (and even expecting) that we'd see more of that since we didn't have some (FAI&P) mindless, one-dimensional enemy.

Like you said, the Arishok comes closer than Orsino or Meredith since he lacks the massive plot crutches that the other two have. He could have benefited from more development time, but that sort of gets me back to my notion that the entire mage-templar conflict should have been scrapped entirely, leaving the focus on Qunari-Chantry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Costin
Yes, I know the battle of Denerim was **** (though fun to me). Not arguing against that.

But Wardens being the only ones to kill an archdemon is something I do not mind. In fact, I find the concept of virtually being half / quarter darkspawn to be intriguing. At least the way Morrigan put it. Of course the game did a poor job making it relevant other than the very end (and power of the blood, loved Avernus).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Like you said, the Arishok comes closer than Orsino or Meredith since he lacks the massive plot crutches that the other two have. He could have benefited from more development time, but that sort of gets me back to my notion that the entire mage-templar conflict should have been scrapped entirely, leaving the focus on Qunari-Chantry.

For me, it's the contrary. the Qunari should have been scrapped, and the focus should have been on mage / templar.

I do not think you can make a good story involving the Qunari in just Kirkwall (hence why we ended up wit hthe poor twist and reason why they were there). The Qunari would have to encompass a larger setting imo. Mage / Templar on the otherhand is easier to portray in a microcosm.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Like you said, the Arishok comes closer than Orsino or Meredith since he lacks the massive plot crutches that the other two have. He could have benefited from more development time, but that sort of gets me back to my notion that the entire mage-templar conflict should have been scrapped entirely, leaving the focus on Qunari-Chantry.

For me, it's the contrary. the Qunari should have been scrapped, and the focus should have been on mage / templar.

I do not think you can make a good story involving the Qunari in just Kirkwall (hence why we ended up wit hthe poor twist and reason why they were there). The Qunari would have to encompass a larger setting imo. Mage / Templar on the otherhand is easier to portray in a microcosm.

True, but at the same time, there was some great potential lying in the Qunari converts. That could have been expanded upon, where numerous people learn that the Qun (and the Qunari) isn't as bad as people made it out to be. Many people even consider joining. The Chantry just can't have that. BAM! There's your premise for a Holy War. It'd also be less likely to be as OTT as the Mage-Templar fight IMO.

But yeah, the premise for them being there could have been a bit better.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...

Oh I believe you. Your opinion is shared by many here though. The game is really a hit or miss... on the Loggy thread it seems to be more of a miss though.

I think the miss part, like KoP said, stems from us having very high expectations fostered by Origins. I agree that in theory and first concept, DA2's storyline did have the opportunity to be unique, epic, and engaging, but was just executed poorly and rushed. the sad thing is, it made a joke of one of the most complicated dilemas in Thedas, the mage/templar/chantry conflict. Which was perhaps my favorite. Dragon Age is the first RPG where a mage is my canon, and it is also my favorite class and origin due to the complexities of it, in a broader sense. That's perhaps the biggest reason for my ire, as it just all fell miles short opf what it should have been.

Look at our favorite teyrn. Remember how many heated and intense debates that carried on for months after DAO was released about Loghain? In amidsts the occasional hysterics, name calling, and run of the mill drama, they were never dull. People pulled out varying perspectives and examples in history, politics, law and legal code, ect, just debating whether or not Loghain's actions constitue treason. Remember how everyone picked apart every small twitch, gesture, and action in a cutscene at ostagar or elsewhere? The fact that Loghain could generate that much intelligent thinking and examination is proof alone he's not your ordinary villan.

Meredith? The only debates around her revovle around whether or not she was justified in being batsh*t loopy and abusive. And in my own opinion, it's non-negotiable. That broad wasn't just going off the rails of a crazy train, she was the conductor and caboose.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Does Merrill really stand out to you as an idiot when you're playing as Hawke? It bothers me that a supporting character like Merrill is proactive while the protagonist, Hawke, does nothing but wear silk robes and fail the people around him or go into a coma for three years. For all the controversy that Loghain's actions elicited in Origins, I'd have to imagine how bad things would have gotten if Hawke was at the helm of such events instead of Loghain. Even the ending of Legacy illustrates that thinking doesn't figure into Hawke's persona.

I decided to make merril a friend in my first playthrough, to see her character if one is supportive towards her goal of restoring the Eluvian. And my conclusion is yes, Merril is an idiot. An adorable idiot, mind you, and one you can't help but like. Certainly, her general views on the ethics of blood magic and spirts of the fade is alot more realistic than most Circle mages and the Chantry have. I just did not think Merilll was a sturdy, skilled, and competant enough mage to be screwing around with blood magic, let alone the eluvian. It would have been better off being done by another mage. Not that i think Merril is useless, she's certainly accomplished in her own right. I however do not believe she is the level and calibre of mage needed to not only master blood magic safely, but deal with a very mysterious and powerful artifact.

I see it differently because Merrill's naivety seems to focus generally on human society. It's not an excuse that Hawke has - by Act II, he's a human noble - he's wealthy, with political connections to the Viscount and at least one templar (and possibly the Knight-Captain), and potential positive reputation with the Alienage. However, Hawke does nothing with what he has. All he does is kill people. Why isn't an apostate Hawke helping out Anders in his clinic? At the beginning of Act III, Hawke was doing nothing for three years while Kirkwall was edging closer and closer to exploding.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

But in terms to your comparison to Hawke, yes, Merril, unlike Hawke, is actually spending her years trying to do something productive that she thinks will be of great value and benefit to her people. Even if I do think she should leave it alone for someone better equipped, ehr intent, work, and dedication are admirable if nothing else. And compared to hawke, yeah. I'm still yet to determine if its even possible for Hawke to pursue any ambition other than chillin out and killing crazy people for the moneez and lulz. For that matter, Anders is the same. He works in his clinic, as well as actively aids the mage resistance. Possesed and crazy as he gets, again, unl;ike hawke, he's been very busy and active in following his own goals and beliefs. not to mention provides free healthcare to refugees. it's more than hawke ever contributed.

I can safely tell you, after having wasted my money and time on Legacy, that Hawke is incapable of doing anything that requires him to do anything other than kill. I sincerely think he's either completely insane ala Don Quixote or that he had his brain removed via Old World Blues.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Interestingly, it is really only the two mage companions, plus Aveline, who seem to take action and proactively pursue their goals or desires. Everyone else, including Hawke, sits around slumming for 7 years. Fenris hates mages. I get it. So if you believe mages to be such a menace to decency and goodness everywhere, why not do something other than squat in Danarius house for 7 years drinking wine made by Tevinter slaves? Why not volunteer to assist the templars? The Kirkwall templars would love him, hell, with his hate of all things Tevinter and magical, if nothing else, the templars would probably cover all his bar tabs in the city for life.Or go Dirty Harry on the numerous and unchecked slaver oeprations in the city. Hell, even pimping himself out at the Blooming Rose would have been far more than he did. 

I can see the problem with the templars because of what Cullen says in Act II (about the templars no longer accepting any outside help on Meredith's orders), but I'd have liked to see Fenris going 'Dirty Harry' on the slaving operations.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

yeah, if it was up to hawke and co, at year ten when cassandra is grilling varrick, it would be because the Blight had pretty much consumed all of Thedas. Loghain's political ineptness, at least, can be reasonably forgiven, when you consider everything.

True. Loghain had reasons to be cautious about the Orlesians, and given what's said in Act III, he seems to have been correct. Since he's still alive, and there are rumors about Dragon Age III taking place in Orlais, I wonder if Warden Loghain will show up again.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

For my first playthrough, i did, and helped me understand the game better by doping so. Nothing I did mattered, my choices were limited to pissing off my companions for amusement, and by act 3, I still had not come up with a sane, intelligent reason of why my apostate Hawke was still in kirkwall.

I'm not certain there's a rational explanation for why Hawke is still in Kirkwall in Act II, to be honest, doing something rational and intelligent may be expecting a bit more than Hawke is capable of performing.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh trust me, at that point, I had pretty much left the Dragon age
universe as I knew it behind, and had been transported to LOLWTFville.

I giggled at this line for 10 minutes before I could compose myself. Probably because it reminded me of my first playthrough of DA2 when *a spoiler event* causes everyone to lose their minds and nothing further makes sense. I don't want to just bash the game. It's not that it wasn't interesting or fun, just that I remember more of the frustration than amusement.

Meredith? The only debates around her revovle around whether or not she was justified in being batsh*t loopy and abusive. And in my own opinion, it's non-negotiable. That broad wasn't just going off the rails of a crazy train, she was the conductor and caboose.

To me, Meredith was one of the single most disappointing aspects of DA2. Throughout most of the game, I liked her better than all the other antagonistic characters because she seemed to be passionate and sincere, willing to take full responsibility for herself and for her charges (the templars). I completely understood why she was so fanatic, even if I disagreed with her. But then it turned out she was just crazy. What a let down.

The game is kind of growing on me, now that I'm more accepting of my limitations within in. I don't think it's a bad game. I don't think it's not a fun game. I think my expectations of it were too high. I thought the same thing the first time I played through Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. To DA2's credit, I've played it more than once now (still get frustrated some times, but still play it), which is more than I can say for Oblivion, or the Witcher, or nearly any other game I've played.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Hayder's Razor. I always make Carver use that. It fits his "dumb jock" personality. lol

Oh, thank you. You just gave me the perfect tag for carver: dumb jock brother, lol. I knew there was a certain classic archetype of some sort that he fit, but couldn't put my finger on it. But yeah. Total dumb jock. Needs to overcompensate for his lack of inner manliness. Which is blatantly obvious to everyone but him.

My Hawke would still bone him, though, lol. She doesn't really give a ****. She can just smack him everytime he opens his mouth to complain.

Have you heard the banter about his tattoo yet?  Hopefully with Fenris and Varric in the party?  OMG, I fell out of my chair laughing.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Which brings me to another on topic observation. Loghain was widely admired and appreciated as an antagonist in DAO. He did not needs swords of awesome or some funky ninja moves bruce Lee would admire. he was an awesome villian/antagonist  and didn't need red lyrium to drive him bonkers. The duel with him, mechanically, is little different than any other SS mega boss in the game. Yet he is far more epic than meredith, because he is a very well written character on many levels, and Simeon Templeman's VA for Loghain is still, after more playthroughs than I can count, epic.

Yeah, the lack of a Loghain or anything like him is my most long-term disappointment.  From afar I can see that a lot of people find Anders deep and well characterized, but eh... he pushes wrong buttons for me.  So there's just nobody who made me grit my teeth or think as much as Loghain does.  For that matter, not many Origins characters can stand up to that, either.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah, the lack of a Loghain or anything like him is my most long-term disappointment. From afar I can see that a lot of people find Anders deep and well characterized, but eh... he pushes wrong buttons for me. So there's just nobody who made me grit my teeth or think as much as Loghain does. For that matter, not many Origins characters can stand up to that, either.

Only Loghain does it really. I personally think Origins wouldn't be half as good as people claim it is without him.

The Loghain defense thread was one of the most legendary things ever. If there was a time when I was hard pressed to bring my historical knowledge onto the table it was there. Still thank God I don't have to deal with someone like Lotion AGAIN....dear lord what a stubborn ass. ( I admit I am one as well, but I generally bother justyfing the choice to me as logically as possible ).

I remember Skadi arguing that she killed Loghain because he was an idiot, lol.

It's funny looking back at all those who hated and argued against Loghain and seeing where they are now...I can only write this.

Loghain: "In the end, you will ALL serve me!"

Looking back though, I firmly believe ( especially based on a toolset dialogue line that was with sound ) that Loghain was meant to be the villain you killed without any choice in the matter. It feels almost like they added it very late in the game but primarly because of what Mass Effect I did with Saren and his redemption.

Perhaps the line of thought was: Oh Saren's redemption was great, let's add that option for Loghain as well!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 août 2011 - 12:44 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


I see it differently because Merrill's naivety seems to focus generally on human society. It's not an excuse that Hawke has - by Act II, he's a human noble - he's wealthy, with political connections to the Viscount and at least one templar (and possibly the Knight-Captain), and potential positive reputation with the Alienage. However, Hawke does nothing with what he has. All he does is kill people. Why isn't an apostate Hawke helping out Anders in his clinic? At the beginning of Act III, Hawke was doing nothing for three years while Kirkwall was edging closer and closer to exploding.[/quote]

Even a ruthless, ambitous hawke that will step on anyone, fellow mage and ferelden alike, as well as her own family, to get to the top and take over Kirkwall for themselves would have been far more respectable than sitting around sometimes pretending to care.



[quote]I can safely tell you, after having wasted my money and time on Legacy, that Hawke is incapable of doing anything that requires him to do anything other than kill. I sincerely think he's either completely insane ala Don Quixote or that he had his brain removed via Old World Blues.[/quote]

Yes, I share your concern with what appears to be some pretty epic stupid on hawke's part. There are very few dialogue, quest, and plot options for hawke to display intelligence or perception are very very few. legacy looks great (still haven't downloaded and played) as far as gameplay, plot, and lore discoveries, but yeah, I know at the end, no matter what, someone gets posesed by the original darkspawn, and no one, hawke included, even raises an eyebrow. A Warden could at least attempt a cunning or other check to say, if nothing else "Uhhhh....Larius, is that really you, dude?"



[quote]I can see the problem with the templars because of what Cullen says in Act II (about the templars no longer accepting any outside help on Meredith's orders), but I'd have liked to see Fenris going 'Dirty Harry' on the slaving operations. [/quote]

fenris would not have to necessarily offically work with the templars. He could unoffically offer his aid as a volunteer, concerned citizen. help patrols, slip them tip off of apostate hideouts, ect. Not that such actions would endear him to me any more, but it would be both in character and a reasoble way for him to be spending his spare time. As well as kicking slaver ass. Hell, he could offer to assist Aveline, and in the process of helping the guard, get to whack a few unfortunate mages along the way.

But no, Fenris decides instead to lead a pointless, creepy existance in his old master's crib, ****ing constantly about mages and slavery but doing sh*t about it. great. People whine about Anders constant b*tching and harping about mage rights, but at least Anders is trying to do something about it. Through all three acts he is working in some capacity for mage rights and freedom.

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


[quote]True. Loghain had reasons to be cautious about the Orlesians, and given what's said in Act III, he seems to have been correct. Since he's still alive, and there are rumors about Dragon Age III taking place in Orlais, I wonder if Warden Loghain will show up again.[/quote]

Unlikely, and given what they did with the various cameos in DA2, I would actually worry about what they would do with a Loghain Cameo. Thankfully, I was spared Alistair's cameo because he died killing the archdemon in my canon. I spared his beloved memory the horror of DA2stair.


[quote]I'm not certain there's a rational explanation for why Hawke is still in Kirkwall in Act II, to be honest, doing something rational and intelligent may be expecting a bit more than Hawke is capable of performing.[/quote]

Then if I am stuck with lazy character, why the hell couldn't they have at least given Hawke a decent Brothel to waste time drinking, shagging, and not giving a sh*t that the world is going to hell around them. I mean really, the Blooming Rose was just a mere shadow and mockery of the awesomeness that was the Pearl. Like, 90% of your choices in the place involve elves, who all now look like ridiculous mutant fruitbat/preying mantis hyrbirds. And you want me to pay a whole freakin soveriegn to get action from these things? At the pearl, for 30 silvers, I could get that hot elf brunette tranny who always "left me fearing for more". And don't get me started on "surprise me. In Kirkwall, I pay 2 soveriegns to get lectured by a revolting Chantry sister. For 40 silvers at the pearl, I really do get a "surprise". Nugs who refuse to make eye contact, "magic wands"s whose implied use might even scare an ogre, hooded scarecrows engaged in BDSM play involving pagan fertility rites to fish idols. Bored tranny dwarves whose world I have so unenethisastically moved. Heavy construction tools that double as sex toys.

And don't get me started on the lack of dwarf options, as well as the lack of dwarven females. With the amount of money I spent tumbling the two dwarf workers at the pearl, I'm pretty sure they now both run their own successful merchant empires and probably now own half of Denerim.

[Giggles_Manically]

Those days were fun ones.

But in the end no one can resist Simon Templeman for long.

[Costin_Razvan]

Normally to me voice acting doesn't matter at all when deciding how great the writing is for a certain character.

But oh boy, I am hard pressed to do what with Loghain.

[Giggles_Manically]

In Origins Simon Templeman easily is my fave.

During Tali's LM he easily remains my fave.
Although there are many great VOs during that segment.

But having watched the Legacy of Kain stuff on youtube its simply amazing what he can do with his voice.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I remember Skadi arguing that she killed Loghain because he was an idiot, lol.

I did, lol. I remember in my first playthrough, my opinion was that Loghain was kinda like Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strange love. You know. The over paranoid general who sees reds under the bed, and commie Orlesian conspiracies to flurodate the water and crap. It was ever several different playthroughs that this opinion changed. I think he was a bit over paranoid, however, his paranoia was far from irrational and pointless, especially after RTO letter bombs and discovering just how clever and dangerous a woman celene is for ferelden. His problem was priorities. And biting off more than he could chew. Loghain was no idiot. He of all people knew exactly the what the Bannorn was like. I think he should have been alot more ruthless and directed in his preparations for plan B, which is what i call his retreat from ostagar. Still, even Loghain's mistakes were mostly due to overestimating the loyalty and intelligence of the Bannorn, or simply choosing poor allies. Loghain even at his most questionable isn't even in the category of epic stupid that DA2's various antagonists were.

@Addai: Anders is my favorite character in DA2, as mental as he is, because even in his crazy rebal yelling possesed worst, he makes alot more sense in context to the story than even hawke does. And his character progression is quite interesting to me, especially as, even as late as act 2, the Abominable Anders shows more sense and willingness to reason than anyone else. When I did Dissent (and Justers almost ripped that poor kid to pieces for suggesting he was a demon) and showed Anders Alrik's papers, the response was surpsing. He actually admitted that he might have misjudged the Chantry leadership, because meredith, Elthina, and even the divine had rejected the Tranquil solution. And then talked about doing something vary rational and productive: sending his grievances about mage abuses to the highest authorities, in the belief that they would certainly investigate it. This coming from the guy who would eventually start off the apocolypse by blowing up the Chantry. But at that point, as idiotic and short sighted an action that was, I can't really say he was totally unjustified. At that point, I think he already learned that the Divine is an idiot, Elthina is useless, meredith is a nut, and there really is no sane or competant authority to which to appeal with reason to. Naturally, blowing up the Chantry was not the greatest "plan B" he could of come up with, but damn, when that cutscene fired and the Chantry went boom, my reaction was delight and applause.

Been wanting to do that to the whole f*cking city of Kirkwall since I stepped into the gallows. But Anders stole my awesome.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

In Origins Simon Templeman easily is my fave.

During Tali's LM he easily remains my fave.
Although there are many great VOs during that segment.

But having watched the Legacy of Kain stuff on youtube its simply amazing what he can do with his voice.

You're telling me. That man has natural talent. Not only Loghain, but Avernus and Caladrius. Is there a character he voices that isn't awesome in some way?

I think the only reason Templeman didn't voice Bhelen is because he's probably a nice guy, and felt it wasn't right to have all the awesome in the game to himself. Let someone else voice another epic character.

[Zjarcal]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


You're telling me. That man has natural talent. Not only Loghain, but Avernus and Caladrius. Is there a character he voices that isn't awesome in some way?

Avernus isn't one of them though, he was voiced by Martin Jarvis.

However I had no idea Caladrius was voiced by Simon... damn, that man is talented!

EDIT: DAMN! Even the Ostagar tranquil is vocied by him?!?

Modifié par Zjarcal, 09 août 2011 - 01:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I didn't know about the ostagar tranquil.

Why do I get the feeling that given the chance, Simeon Templeman could probably voice 75% of the of the game, and no one would be any wiser.

[Costin_Razvan]

I did, lol. I remember in my first playthrough, my opinion was that Loghain was kinda like Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strange love. You know. The over paranoid general who sees reds under the bed, and commie Orlesian conspiracies to flurodate the water and crap. It was ever several different playthroughs that this opinion changed. I think he was a bit over paranoid, however, his paranoia was far from irrational and pointless, especially after RTO letter bombs and discovering just how clever and dangerous a woman celene is for ferelden. His problem was priorities. And biting off more than he could chew. Loghain was no idiot. He of all people knew exactly the what the Bannorn was like. I think he should have been alot more ruthless and directed in his preparations for plan B, which is what i call his retreat from ostagar. Still, even Loghain's mistakes were mostly due to overestimating the loyalty and intelligence of the Bannorn, or simply choosing poor allies. Loghain even at his most questionable isn't even in the category of epic stupid that DA2's various antagonists were.

Why do I get the feeling you don't think highly of the High Command of your Armed forces? Just saying.

Not that I could blame you mind you. Hell I'd probably think the same now that I look at what the Pentagon's been doing.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Why do I get the feeling you don't think highly of the High Command of your Armed forces? Just saying.

Not that I could blame you mind you. Hell I'd probably think the same now that I look at what the Pentagon's been doing.

Pretty much. But thats from my own personal experience. The Pentagon hasn't really done anything in the past 30 years to earn my faith in their competance, nr have they really changed their general battle plan or framework. It was a large part of why 9/11 succeeded on the scale it did.

Come to think of it, not really that different from the Chantry in alot of ways, lol. It's even loaded with religous zealots.

Hmmm...maybe DA2 was a parady of the current state of stupid in American affairs, lol.

[Monica21]

Zjarcal wrote...
However I had no idea Caladrius was voiced by Simon... damn, that man is talented!

EDIT: DAMN! Even the Ostagar tranquil is vocied by him?!?

That was something similar to my surprise in finding out that Steve Valentine voiced Cullen.

And this is just pathetic begging on my part, but I would love to see Loghain in DA3. And pleeeeease let him be an LI.  <3