12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Mages are not a block group- treating them as such only agrees with the Chantry as to their status- and Anders damn well doesn't speak for my mages. He just made their lives a lot harder, and the same for every mage child who has to live with the consequences of people seeing mages as dangerous.

But this could end up a long rabbit trail. 

Modifié par Addai67, 09 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

All of that would have been justified in my eyes, if he had a vision, a large following and a long term plan (blowing up the chantry is not that bright). Without those 3 and without sanity, he is not qualified to make such a choice.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 août 2011 - 11:00 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

All of that would have been justified in my eyes, if he had a vision, a large following and a long term plan (blowing up the chantry is not that bright). Without those 3 and without sanity, he is not qualified to make such a choice.

I'd be more sympathetic to Anders' revolution if I had just come across more mages that agreed with his cause. I'm sure they existed, but I don't remember a single apostate that had any interest in fighting to change the system by refusing to become exactly what they were being accused of becoming.

Furthermore, I might have been more empathetic to the mage cause if Hawke himself had been personally affected by the almost invisible Templar oppression. That my Hawke was a mage was scarcly commented upon by anyone in Kirkwall (except my companions).  No one around me that I knew became Tranquil (Karl was turned Tranquil but I didn't really know him). That isn't to say that Hawke should only be interested in taking action if the conflict is affecting him/her personally, just that it was difficult to see that the conflict existed at all.

All in all, it made Anders seem like he had a personal problem with the Circle system, not a social one.

I think the mage/templar conflict had the potential to have a lot of depth, but that there was too much telling and not showing, and Hawke's participation in that conflict was superficial.

Arguably, Loghain "had no right" to make decisions for Ferelden, didnt' have the following to justify his authority, and ended up killing a lot of the very people he was trying to protect, and he was damned for it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
Arguably, Loghain "had no right" to make decisions for Ferelden, didnt' have the following to justify his authority, and ended up killing a lot of the very people he was trying to protect, and he was damned for it.

Loghain had most nobles and the army following him. And the most experience.

What he did not have was a good plan to deal with the idiotic bannorn, due to his lack of shrewdness. And the lack of ruthlessness when it was required (killing Eamon).

Those two are what damn him in my eyes. However, there was really no one else to save the country, barring the random Warden recruit that no one could have predicted.

Loghain had enough qualifications to make what he did justified in my eyes, (especially Ostagar) barring his two big mistakes later on.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain had most nobles and the army following him. And the most experience.

We are told that the mage underground exists too, and that Anders has their support.

What he did not have was a good plan to deal with the idiotic bannorn, due to his lack of shrewdness. And the lack of ruthlessness when it was required (killing Eamon).

Those two are what damn him in my eyes. However, there was really no one else to save the country, barring the random Warden recruit that no one could have predicted.

Loghain had enough qualifications to make what he did justified in my eyes, (especially Ostagar) barring his two big mistakes later on.

So you're saying that Loghain had the support, but not the faculties to succeed (a good plan, ruthlessness).
Anders potentially had the support (if you count the mage underground), but not the faculties ( a good plan ). With Justice's help, Anders even arguably has the ruthlessness.

It seems like you're saying that Loghain was qualified by default, and that's why his actions are justified.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, here. I think the main reason I didn't find Anders' actions to be justified was because the game failed to convince me that the complete abandonment of mage oversight was a good idea.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Mages are not a block group- treating them as such only agrees with the Chantry as to their status- and Anders damn well doesn't speak for my mages. He just made their lives a lot harder, and the same for every mage child who has to live with the consequences of people seeing mages as dangerous.

But this could end up a long rabbit trail. 

I never said Anders was going to bring positive changes, nor did he really consider the full consequences of his actions. Nor did I say he helped the cause of mages by blowing up the Chantry, though he sure out a smile on my face, because Elthina got toasted in the process.

To be honest, I actually dislike Elthina even more, because she sat on her ass picking her nose believing the Maker would do her job for her and sort everything out.

Anyway, my point was that Anders forced change, even if an initially negative one. And in this scenario we are talking about, being Kirkwall, even a negative, idiot change is refreshing compared to the drawn out fiasco those 7 years were.

[Joy Divison]

phaonica wrote...

It seems like you're saying that Loghain was qualified by default, and that's why his actions are justified.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, here. I think the main reason I didn't find Anders' actions to be justified was because the game failed to convince me that the complete abandonment of mage oversight was a good idea.

This wasn't going to happen.  I can't get a quote for you, but I recall reading dev posts which basically said they felt players would incline toward a pro-Mage stance and thus had stack the deck so to speak against the mages so players would side with the Templars against their predilections.

I also wouldn't categorize Anders as a revolutionary; or at least, the game doesn't lead me to believe he is just a man bent on avenging perceived wrongs.  Revolutionaires are thinkers, organizers, planners, and leaders.  He isn't exactly Thomas Jefferson, let alone Vladimir Lenin.  The game references Anders's manifesto which implies he may be a thinker, but as is much of my issue with DA2, there is a lot of telling rather than showing.

While I did empathize with his plight, I was put off with his arrogant and hypocritical attitude toward Merrill and his battle cries about messing with mages got *real* repetitive.  If Bethany was available as a companion for the entire game, I'm not sure Anders would have ever left his clinic in my playthroughs.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 10 août 2011 - 02:31 .

[Giggles_Manically]

That pissed me off.

Far to many times has a person stood up and said that they will bring about change BECAUSE ITS RIGHT.
Then all to often bring about horror and pain to so many others.

Did not help that Anders seems to think that all mages are perfect wonderful people like him.
Post All that Remains: "I cant believe ANY mage would ever do that!"
ITS ALL THE TEMPLARS FAULT NO MAGE WOULD TURN TO DEMONS!

He should have stayed in the sewers and kept to healing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
We are told that the mage underground exists too, and that Anders has their support.

That was before Act 3 and before they were destroyed. We have no indication that they support him in Act 3, if they even exist.

So you're saying that Loghain had the support, but not the faculties to succeed (a good plan, ruthlessness).
Anders potentially had the support (if you count the mage underground), but not the faculties ( a good plan ). With Justice's help, Anders even arguably has the ruthlessness.

Loghain had the military faculties. He did not have all faculties, but he had several at the very least, and the fact that there was no alternative and that Ferelden was under immediate threat (in other words, waiting was not an option). Furthermore, the lack of the faculties I posted did not really cause him to fail. He was defeating the bannorn and he was going to get the help of mages were it not for his bad luck and Wynne's idiocy. The major reason as to why he would have failed is something he could not have known.

Anders had no faculties. And Justice does not provide him with ruthlessness, but with lack of sanity. That not only makes him unqualified, but dangerous. And finally, because there was a clear alternative considering Meredith's incompetence.

EDIT: and more importantly. Loghain stood his course. He did not cowardly accept death after all the problems he caused, but he remained to face the consequences and do all in his power to protect what he loved (until there was someone better than him). Anders on the other hand did what he did, while lazily and corwardly expecting death, and expecting the mages that he forced into a corner to do all the hard work he did not expect himself to do (unless Hawke spared him and it remains to be seen what he will do). 

Loghain might have made a mistake, but he was brave enough to stay in his course till the end, and not throw the weight on others and expect them to do all the hard work he forced them to do, on their own.

That's one major difference between a leader and a terrorist.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 août 2011 - 03:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

This wasn't going to happen.  I can't get a quote for you, but I recall reading dev posts which basically said they felt players would incline toward a pro-Mage stance and thus had stack the deck so to speak against the mages so players would side with the Templars against their predilections.

I read that same quote, which was from a dev primarily explaining Orsino's actions at the end of Act III as an antagonist. Apparently, Orsino's nonsensical transformation at the conclusion of Act III and every mage antagonist acting like a complete idiot through all three Acts can be attributed to this mentality. The only thing that puzzles me is why this idiocy decided to infect others - Knight-Captain Cullen when Hawke warns him about Anders, or Hawke throughout the entire storyline.

Joy Divison wrote...

I also wouldn't categorize Anders as a revolutionary; or at least, the game doesn't lead me to believe he is just a man bent on avenging perceived wrongs.  Revolutionaires are thinkers, organizers, planners, and leaders.  He isn't exactly Thomas Jefferson, let alone Vladimir Lenin.  The game references Anders's manifesto which implies he may be a thinker, but as is much of my issue with DA2, there is a lot of telling rather than showing.

Maybe it has to do with the developers stacking the deck against the mages, which is why there seems to be no real effort involved in allowing Anders to present an alternative. A serious problem is that Anders actually says he thinks an apostate Hawke is the leader the mages have been waiting for, and wants him to lead the mages.

Joy Divison wrote...

While I did empathize with his plight, I was put off with his arrogant and hypocritical attitude toward Merrill and his battle cries about messing with mages got *real* repetitive.  If Bethany was available as a companion for the entire game, I'm not sure Anders would have ever left his clinic in my playthroughs.

I found it odd that he seemed to try to force his Andrastian beliefs on her when she kept stressing that she didn't see the world the same way because she was Dalish.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Anyway, my point was that Anders forced change, even if an initially negative one. And in this scenario we are talking about, being Kirkwall, even a negative, idiot change is refreshing compared to the drawn out fiasco those 7 years were.

He needed a much bigger bomb.

It's really the notion that he started a world war that I find... spurious.  We'll see how they develop it.

[phaonica]

Joy Divison wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It seems like you're saying that Loghain was qualified by default, and that's why his actions are justified.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, here. I think the main reason I didn't find Anders' actions to be justified was because the game failed to convince me that the complete abandonment of mage oversight was a good idea.

This wasn't going to happen.  I can't get a quote for you, but I recall reading dev posts which basically said they felt players would incline toward a pro-Mage stance and thus had stack the deck so to speak against the mages so players would side with the Templars against their predilections.

I can understand that. If the goal was to slide some support towards the pro-Circle view, they succeeded in that, I think. I guess as someone who was already mostly pro-Circle, if often seemed like overkill to me. For all that, though, I haven't had a character yet that I could roleplay a reason for siding with the Templars. If I could support the Templars against the *mage underground*, I could see myself siding with them more often.

[Monica21]

 Um, I wish I could add something more interesting to this, but as I haven't finished playing I'll just complain about the male LI's and be really really shallow.

Fenris - Drunken emo, so.... no.
Anders - Murdering nutcase and borderline terrorist. Possibly actual terrorist. I haven't gotten that far yet. I really wish this was a new character instead of trying to bring Anders over. I miss Awakening Anders. This Anders is just... ugh and I've convinced myself that Justice didn't make him crazy, losing Sir Pounce-A-Lot made him crazy.
Sebastian - The only sane male I can flirt with and he prays A LOT. Also, I'm not even sure I can romance him.

I'm seriously considering switching teams for Isabela.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I found all female LIs very unappealing. None of them are my type. In fact, both are opposite my type. And I thought both were shallow / not that interesting.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 août 2011 - 05:23 .

[Zjarcal]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thats why Anders is my favorite companion, because he (and Merril)...

Yay for some Merrill appreciation. 

Monica21 wrote...
I'm seriously considering switching teams for Isabela.

Do it.

I would chime in about how I don't think any of the LIs are shallow but.... meh.

[Monica21]

Zjarcal wrote...
Yay for some Merrill appreciation. 

Are there people who don't like her? I bring her everywhere. She's too quirky to leave behind. Not to mention I love her banter about Andraste. "It's a good story but I think it's got some holes."

I would chime in about how I don't think any of the LIs are shallow but.... meh.

Oh, you can chime in. I think I'm just so disappointed at what they did to Anders that nobody else comes close. I spent most of Awakening flirting with him whenever I got the chance and when I actually get the chance to romance him, he's a completely different person. I'm kind of wondering why my Warden hasn't tracked him down, because she's the type who would do that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

*raises hand* I am indifferent to her. Which may not be disliking, but a character making me indifferent is a worse crime for me.

I, in all seriousness, prefer Velanna as a character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That was before Act 3 and before they
were destroyed. We have no indication that they support him in Act 3,
if they even exist.

The whole mage underground was destroyed? How'd I miss that?

And finally, because there was a clear alternative considering Meredith's incompetence.

Considering how the Templars respond when you try to turn in Anders, how Elthina responds when you try to turn in Petrice, and Meredith's escalating madness, I'm not sure if any peaceful avenues of change were open to these mages. That's no fault of Anders', but seems to be a weakness of the plot that every single person with authority is completely incompetant and useless. 

Loghain might have made a mistake, but he was brave enough to stay in his course till the end, and not throw the weight on others and expect them to do all the hard work he forced them to do, on their own.

I do think it was of weaker character for Anders to prematurely resign himself to martyrdom. But if you choose not to execute him, he can be passionate about fighting the Templars and continuing what he started. He is willing to follow through, given the chance.

Modifié par phaonica, 10 août 2011 - 07:14 .

[Persephone]

Psssssssssssst..........lookie......

Chapter twenty of "The Edge Of The Grey Enigma" can be read here: www.fanfiction.net/s/6087280/20/

Don't click the link!! Horrible things happen to those that do. And I heard that those who review end up disappearing forever.....

[Morwen Eledhwen]

More Loghain art:



In case you're wondering (which you probably are), this is a "portrait" of sleepyowlet --perched, of course, on the shoulder of her beloved ex-Teyrn.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 10 août 2011 - 01:41 .

[Zjarcal]

Monica21 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Yay for some Merrill appreciation. 

Are there people who don't like her? I bring her everywhere. She's too quirky to leave behind. Not to mention I love her banter about Andraste. "It's a good story but I think it's got some holes."

Oh, plenty of them, a lot on this thread. That's true for all the companions, well maybe not so much for Varric (who ironically is one of my least fave companions, though I still like him).

If it wasn't clear by my siggie on the right, I love her. 

As for the shallow bit, well I think I misread your quote because you're mostly just complaining about the male LIs being unappealing, which is understandable (I was sleepy so after I read KoP's post I thought you both had said the LIs were shallow, something that I obviously disagree with).

Anyway, it's really just different strokes. Just like many found the LIs in Origins to be off putting, the DA2 ones can suffer from that too. It's hard to please everyone.

But I fully support any plans to ride Isabela's boat. 

I do understand what you said about the disappointment of finally getting the chance to romance Anders and for him to be so different. This is why you shouldn't be wishing for a Loghain romance in DA3... he'll be possessed by Wynne's old spirit (or Alistair if you executed him). 

@Morwen:

I love your drawing!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 10 août 2011 - 02:28 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

^ Thank you! As has been stated before (and I know it now more than ever), Loghain is at once fairly simple to draw in terms of including the distinctive features that everyone will recognize as his, and also rather tough to really come close to resembling him. That nose, for instance, went through several revisions. . .

[LobselVith8]

Zjarcal wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thats why Anders is my favorite companion, because he (and Merril)...

Yay for some Merrill appreciation.

I liked Merrill (in part because I'm a fan of Torchwood, which is where I knew Eve Myles' voice from, and I found it interesting since I remembered Claudia Black's voice from another science fiction show, Farscape).

Zjarcal wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
I'm seriously considering switching teams for Isabela.

Do it.

I would chime in about how I don't think any of the LIs are shallow but.... meh.

I didn't think the love interests were shallow, either. I liked the companions. I thought Merrill and Isabela were interesting characters.

@Morwen Eledhwen, nice artwork. Hmmm, I wonder what's going on with Warden Loghain in Orlais, how he's reacting to his post, what the other Grey Wardens think about him, and how many Orlesian nobles had heart attacks when they heard the Hero of River Dane was going to be living in their nation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
The whole mage underground was destroyed? How'd I miss that?

That's what Varric said, IIRC.
It was probably sent even more underground and I doubt they were of any assistance. And even if they were, I doubt they were a large following.

Considering how the Templars respond when you try to turn in Anders, how Elthina responds when you try to turn in Petrice, and Meredith's escalating madness, I'm not sure if any peaceful avenues of change were open to these mages. That's no fault of Anders', but seems to be a weakness of the plot that every single person with authority is completely incompetant and useless. 

Violence was most likely necessary, but there are different types of violence.

I do think it was of weaker character for Anders to prematurely resign himself to martyrdom. But if you choose not to execute him, he can be passionate about fighting the Templars and continuing what he started. He is willing to follow through, given the chance.

Only if you choose not to, and it's not like he would be of much help other than killing. In fact seeing how he thinks Hawke can be a leader (lol), I doubt his mental capacities would be enough to be of much help.

I sympathize with Anders, and do think the Chantry is better off removed from the mage question. But there is little similarity between him and Loghain.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
Yay for some Merrill appreciation. 

Are there people who don't like her?

*raises hand*  Her schtick got old fast, but I really started hating her after completing her personal quests.  Won't spoil for you.