12857 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Aww, Loggy needs a hug!

[phaonica]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

@Zjarcal: what a terribly cold picture. . .from the expression on his face to the extreme nakedness (not even a body hair to cover him), to the sheets that look like they're made of ice to the empty waste on the other side of the bed. . .

I know, right? It's a *great* pic, but the very vulernability she's expressing in the piece makes it hard for me to look at. It's http://maeveschild.deviantart.com/ 's piece, btw. She's incredible.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 septembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[Zjarcal]

Thanks for crediting the author phaonica. I didn't know from who it was, just found it while browsing.

EDIT: The piece is called "Vulnerability". I think she got it perfect.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 septembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[testing123]

*Phew*  I demand everyone agree with me purely for all the work I've put in on this post!  This is probably my last, I have rained on your parade long enough.

phaonica wrote...
Which is exactly like what Cailan wanted to do. I would like to think that Maric would have had less capacity to be manipulated than Cailan would, but I really don't know that he would have, especially without Loghain around.

I'm not sure what you are arguing but I imagine I don't like it.  I'll just leave you with my own personal thoughts on Cailan's motivations.  Cailan is king.  If he wants to wait for Orlais it's going to happen whether Loghain wants it or not.  So I reject the notion that he wanted to wait for Orlais, I think he would have welcomed the help but it was not his primary goal.  I would argue that he manipulates Loghain and his 'Orlesian paranoia' in order to position himself as a hero.  You have to remember that he is Maric's son.  He lives in the shadow of a man who was larger than life.  Fighting side by side with the heroic Grey Wardens, ending a Blight before it has truly begun would cement him as a legend worthy of his father.  Loghain considers this pursuit idle fancy and when he abandons him, Cailan is forced to face a harsh reality.  He is not immune to death and creating 'heroic scenarios' in a selfish pursuit of glory is dangerous.  

I don't see how they're so different. Morrigan has walls that include a feeling that loving someone could be a danger to her sense of self preservation. Futhermore, it can and is still argued that she does *not* learn that loving someone is worth the risk, because despite everything, she still leaves. Potentially, Loghain has walls that include a feeling that loving someone could be a danger to his sense of duty to Ferelden. To break through Loghain's walls, you might have to prove to him, not that an individual life could or should be more important, but in fact that it doesn't have to be. And as for "why build an attachment," again, despite her best efforts, Morrigan gets attached when someone starts getting through her walls. It's not something she does on purpose, and it might not be something that Loghain exactly does on purpose either.

Somebody really wants a Loghain romance. =P  You make a persuasive argument.  I suppose it might not be jarringly out of character for Loghain to have a romance.  Who am I to deny you something that would increase your enjoyment of the game?

I would offer one final counterpoint to clarify my position.  When Morrigan realizes she 'loves' you, she's recognizing that she values something as much if not more than herself.  Considering she's lived her entire life isolating herself in 'self-interested survival mode', I imagine that is rather terrifying.  

She leaves no matter what.  It could be to protect you.  Or herself.  Or both.  Or neither.  I don't know.  The point is, she finds something she values more than her original 'survival paradigm.'  Even if it is only for a moment.  

With Loghain, I don't see how his character could ever allow himself to value anything more than his perceived duty.  You would always be second place or he would just completely shut down emotionally and break it off.  I suppose you could treat it much the same way as Morrigan if you see both as a 'doomed romance.'  (Which I do.)  Or you two can live happily ever after as his 'silver medal.'  The real sticking point for me is the idea that he would ever allow himself to truly love on a level that would jeopardize his duty.  As you said, you can't really control your emotions so eventually he would be forced to break it off, right?  

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, I did not. I differentiate between an in-game perspective and an out-game one. Here, I am talking from an out-game perspective, not what my character thought (he executed Alistair for different reasons). 

When you say "the safe choice is to kill him" from an in-game logic, then yea sure you can believe that. But if you are saying it from an out-game perspective, then you do not have evidence for this.

I think the major impass here is that you are talking from an in-game perspective, while I am talking from an out-game one.
In-game, my character spared Loghain for a list of reasons, pone of which is leniency. Alistair's percieved desertion in progress is another matter entirely, but I won't get into that. 

Yes, that is the major impasse.  I apologize if I've been unclear, I've typed a lot.  At some point, I decided it would be fun to lay out Loghain's reasons for executing himself.  I find it amusing.  It may have seemed like I was speaking in absolute terms, it often does when someone argues that a death is necessary for the greater good.  Just so it is perfectly clear, I am arguing a point of view.  Loghain's point of view.  I suppose you could disagree with my characterization of him, but I feel it is sound.  The question of whether or not he deserves justice, or how much, is another point entirely.

Monica21 wrote...
You interpreted my statement about sparing Loghain to be the equivalent of punishing him, and I explained why being a Grey Warden is punishment. Of course there are two sides of it, but the fact is that Loghain is being punished. He no longer commands men, he is stripped of his titles, and worse, he no longer serves Ferelden. That is arguably the worst punishment of all.

Yes, and then I explained why it isn't a punishment.  You've acknowledged those points are valid.  

Oh no!  The poor man no longer serves Ferelden!  Perish the thought!  The man who committed treason and regicide, led his countrymen into civil war, and sold his people into slavery can't serve his precious Ferelden any more?  Heaven forbid!  That technically isn't even true anyway.  Making him a Grey Warden preserves his overall goal.  He's still serving as protector of Ferelden when he's trying to quash a Blight in their lands.  He's already an old man, any artificial shortening the Joining would have on his life could hardly be considered of consequence.  Considering he has always been a big picture guy, I imagine he thinks being spared is a hell of a deal. 

Loghain has lived his entire life pursuing any means necessary to justify the ends of a stable and protected Ferelden.  Then, when those ends blow up in his face, you rush to defend him.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't say that he was justified in killing those people because it served the greater good and then when he kills those people and it turns out to not serve the greater good he is absolved due to his intentions.  That doesn't make any sense. 

That's your interpretation of justice. You view the man over the course of one year and determine only his death will absolve him. I view the man over the course of his life and determine that he's absolved the moment he submits.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Or what gave you the idea that I'm only judging him based on a year.  Or why that even matters.  I acknowledged his hero status.  His philosophy doesn't change over the course of his life.  His methods are dangerous, those consequences only materialized in the game and not before. 

My argument is that my sense of justice isn't the same as yours. And phaonica is entirely correct that cowing to Alistair in the Landsmeet makes you look far weaker than allowing Loghain to live. What in-game evidence are you using to support a conclusion of how the Landsmeet perceives you? There's nothing to support your theory or mine. They submit to whatever you decide and whoever you put on the throne. There is no agreement with Alistair with regard to Loghain's death, and no agreement with Riordan regarding keeping him alive. It's all supposition anyway, so it hardly matters.

I don't think we have a different sense of justice.  You seem to believe in the same concept that I do.  What you are arguing is that making him a Grey Warden is 'enough punishment.'  A notion I find ridiculous.  I said in the very post you quoted that justice is a completely separate issue to how the Landsmeet perceives you.  You keep bringing it up when it is completely irrelevant.  I provided the argument of weakness to demonstrate how Loghain's own logic would condemn him, which seems to expose a rather large flaw in his methods considering you continually debate the point.

In conclusion, we established that for you to spare Loghain you have to believe one of two things.  His value supersedes your sense of justice.  Or, becoming a Grey Warden is enough of a punishment for the severity of his crimes.  I feel I successfully negated the punishments you presented for making him a Grey Warden and additionally provided benefits bestowed for his enlistment.  Ultimately, his most immediate goal remains the same, protecting Ferelden.  He is in no way inhibited from what he feels is his duty when you conscript him.  If your reason for sparing him is justice, then you must feel his crimes were negligible.    

phaonica wrote...
Then you and I have a fundamental difference in what we see as what is just and moral. To me, the action itself is not as important to me as the why. To me, actions alone don't call for justice, intentions also matter. If that baby was proven to be carrying black plague or something, then while the action of killing it might be awful, it might change how I perceive the murderer. edit: ugh, that's probably a horrible example, but rather than deleting it, i'll just say that while an action can seem terrible at first, sometimes there is another side to the story, and to me that does matter.

  

No, you made a perfectly valid point and I was probably unnecessarily harsh.  I hope you  didn't get caught up in my 'I don't care' comments, it was exaggeration to prove a point.  My argument was that intentions don't outweigh their consequences.  One final note, I never said anything about morality.  Justice and morality are two different things.

Trying to prove intentions in regards to doling out justice is inherently flawed.  How do you know when you have seen all sides of a story?  I'll use our 'dead baby scenario' ™ as an example.  Man kills baby.  What a dick.  But wait!  The baby had the plague!  He's a saint, he's saved all our lives!  But wait!  The man has killed babies before.  Oh God!  He's a serial baby murderer!  And so on and so forth...  

To try and steer this more back to the point, intentions are excuses.  Sometimes excuses are valid, but we can't know the options someone had available to them when they made a decision.  Was everything Loghain did necessary to preserve Ferelden?  He chose as he thought was best, as we all do.  That doesn't make us any less responsible for the outcome.  

Modifié par jvee, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .

[CalJones]

1. I agree with your analysis of Cailan. That's pretty much how I see him - a young man desperate to emerge from his father's shadow and looking for a scenario which allows him to do just that. Unfortunately for him, Ostagar is not the walk in the park he imagines it will be and the wardens are not invincible either. Too bad for him.
2. Phaonica is working on a Loghain expansion which will include a romance, so yes, she's got a vested interest in that. And to a lot of women, the notion of finding out what's under the armour (physical and metaphorical) is an intriguing one.
3. Early 50s is not that old, and don't argue that it is or I'll have to come and kick your arse. Grrr. (I say that because I'm only about 10 years younger than Loghain is supposed to be. I can still bench press my bodyweight and I ran 10 miles this morning. Stuff aches a bit more than it once did and injuries take longer to heal but fitness levels are really no different than when I was in my 20s.
True enough, he's older than ideal for a warrior but he can still jump 10 feet in the air to stab an ogre in the face. (His knees might crack when he lands, though...)  Middle aged man, yes. Old, no.
(Or just feel free to ignore my middle age rage).
Given that he is a lord and is likely quite wealthy (or was, at least) he could live another 20-30 years, during much of which he'd still be able to plan war strategies even after he could no longer do the jumping on ogres thing. Once he takes in the taint, however, he might get another 10 years at best. Quite possibly less. So yes, it is a death sentence.

Still, I think we're in agreement in so far as I don't think it's too bad a deal for him, all things considered. He's at a point where he can die at the Landsmeet in disgrace and his reputation as the Hero of River Dane would be forever tainted. Giving him the chance to be a warden isn't a reward, exactly, but it is a chance to put things right and to redeem himself. The shortened lifespan and loss of his teyrnir are a moot point in most of my games since I usually let him slay the archdemon.
Some players don't like the idea of allowing him that redemption, but given what he has sacrificed in the past, I think it's the most fitting end for him. I'm pretty big on redemption anyway - Sten and Zevran are always recruited and I'm annoyed Jowan's recruitment was cut from the game. I usually aim to redeem characters in other games as well. I guess I'm big on second chances.

[Sarah1281]

A Loghain romance sounds interesting but I'd have to wait a few years until it felt less creepy (and by that time I should actually have a computer that DA works on ). I always get surprised when finding out peoples' ages online as it's usually a lot older than I'd imagined. One of thses days I will stop just assuming everyone's around my age...probably...

[testing123]

CalJones wrote...

1. I agree with your analysis of Cailan. That's pretty much how I see him - a young man desperate to emerge from his father's shadow and looking for a scenario which allows him to do just that. Unfortunately for him, Ostagar is not the walk in the park he imagines it will be and the wardens are not invincible either. Too bad for him.
2. Phaonica is working on a Loghain expansion which will include a romance, so yes, she's got a vested interest in that. And to a lot of women, the notion of finding out what's under the armour (physical and metaphorical) is an intriguing one.
3. Early 50s is not that old, and don't argue that it is or I'll have to come and kick your arse. Grrr. (I say that because I'm only about 10 years younger than Loghain is supposed to be. I can still bench press my bodyweight and I ran 10 miles this morning. Stuff aches a bit more than it once did and injuries take longer to heal but fitness levels are really no different than when I was in my 20s.
True enough, he's older than ideal for a warrior but he can still jump 10 feet in the air to stab an ogre in the face. (His knees might crack when he lands, though...)  Middle aged man, yes. Old, no.
(Or just feel free to ignore my middle age rage).
Given that he is a lord and is likely quite wealthy (or was, at least) he could live another 20-30 years, during much of which he'd still be able to plan war strategies even after he could no longer do the jumping on ogres thing. Once he takes in the taint, however, he might get another 10 years at best. Quite possibly less. So yes, it is a death sentence.

Still, I think we're in agreement in so far as I don't think it's too bad a deal for him, all things considered. He's at a point where he can die at the Landsmeet in disgrace and his reputation as the Hero of River Dane would be forever tainted. Giving him the chance to be a warden isn't a reward, exactly, but it is a chance to put things right and to redeem himself. The shortened lifespan and loss of his teyrnir are a moot point in most of my games since I usually let him slay the archdemon.
Some players don't like the idea of allowing him that redemption, but given what he has sacrificed in the past, I think it's the most fitting end for him. I'm pretty big on redemption anyway - Sten and Zevran are always recruited and I'm annoyed Jowan's recruitment was cut from the game. I usually aim to redeem characters in other games as well. I guess I'm big on second chances.

I think I agree with everything you said.  In regards to Loghain's age, really all I mean is I'm unsure how the Joining would realistically shorten his life.  Alistair tells me I've got twenty or thirty years tops.  If Loghain already only has that much time left anyway, does that mean the Joining cuts that in half again, or what?  I'm not sure how it shortens his life, but then I haven't really looked into it.  It only matters in regards to viewing the Joining as punishment anyway.

Giving a man who has sacrificed so much of his life... his humanity, in his attempts to preserve the country he loves, the opportunity for redemption could be seen as a noble goal.  The point I've been trying to make is that I can't really see that as justice.  That doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason, but it does mean that justice isn't as important to you as his value as a human being.  (Innate value or otherwise.)

There!  I've ended on a positive note.  As you were, ladies and gentlemen.  

[Morwen Eledhwen]

With Loghain, I don't see how his character could ever allow himself to
value anything more than his perceived duty.  You would always be second
place or he would just completely shut down emotionally and break it
off.  I suppose you could treat it much the same way as Morrigan if you
see both as a 'doomed romance.'  (Which I do.)  Or you two can live
happily ever after as his 'silver medal.'  The real sticking point for
me is the idea that he would ever allow himself to truly love on a level
that would jeopardize his duty.  As you said, you can't really control
your emotions so eventually he would be forced to break it off, right? 

Well, I think it is possible, if Loghain met someone of similar ideas and principles. He must feel pretty lonely (or he would feel pretty lonely if he allowed himself that luxury), so if he met someone who seemed to not only "get" him but matched him, respect could lead to a partnership could lead to romance under the right circumstances. And here also lies at least one answer to the mystery of why in the hell some women are intrigued by the idea of a Loghain romance. A large segment of us want to be the only one who really "gets" the odd, quirky, distant, cold, or downright unlikeable character (see Dr. House, Christian Slater's character in Heathers, various incarnations of Dracula, Mr. Rochester from Jane Eyre, etc.). I can't explain it --though I am guilty, myself-- and it does seem to be a primarily female trait. But there you go. I think BioWare lost out on an opportunity to appeal to this group by not allowing a possible, though of course difficult to achieve, Loghain romance (or even a romance with Sten, who sort of falls into the same category although it is pretty easy to get him to a high Friendly/Platonic approval).

Sarah1281 wrote...

A Loghain romance sounds interesting but I'd have to wait a few years until it felt less creepy (and by that time I should actually have a computer that DA works on ). I always get surprised when finding out peoples' ages online as it's usually a lot older than I'd imagined. One of thses days I will stop just assuming everyone's around my age...probably...

I was very creeped out when Loghain said my CE Warden was "pretty", although having just come from my CE origin story it's pretty understandable. She was definitely thinking "Oh great, out of the frying pan and into the fire --only this fire is way hotter than the pan was. I'm in a strange camp full of armed men, have no confirmed allies except Duncan and one of the first things out of the General's mouth is a comment on how pretty I am. How high is my Stealth skill rating again, and should I shove a Small Claw Trap in my knickers?"

I think my Mage is going to like him, though. I intend to recruit him into the Grey Wardens with my Mage and I have a feeling we'll get along pretty well, unless he plans on holding a grudge or has something against Mages (please don't spoil it for me, though). But the way I intend to build her character I think they will be pretty well matched in temperament and ideals. If I weren't playing on the PS3 I'd probably consider getting that romance mod.

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

Somebody really wants a Loghain romance. =P  You make a persuasive argument.  I suppose it might not be jarringly out of character for Loghain to have a romance.  Who am I to deny you something that would increase your enjoyment of the game?

I appreciate that. That's a very kind sentiment. Thank you.

I would offer one final counterpoint to clarify my position.  When Morrigan realizes she 'loves' you, she's recognizing that she values something as much if not more than herself.  Considering she's lived her entire life isolating herself in 'self-interested survival mode', I imagine that is rather terrifying.  She leaves no matter what.  It could be to protect you.  Or herself.  Or both.  Or neither.  I don't know.  The point is, she finds something she values more than her original 'survival paradigm.'  Even if it is only for a moment.  

With Loghain, I don't see how his character could ever allow himself to value anything more than his perceived duty.  You would always be second place or he would just completely shut down emotionally and break it off.  I suppose you could treat it much the same way as Morrigan if you see both as a 'doomed romance.'  (Which I do.)  Or you two can live happily ever after as his 'silver medal.'  

I think I agree with what you're saying here. One might say that in the Morrigan romance, Morrigan learns to value someone else over her survival paradigm. A Loghain romance might not necessarily work that way, because in it, (potentially) Loghain would not learn to love someone over his duty paradigm.  In a Loghain romance, you might be 'second place', as you said, to his duty.

And before I continue, those out there interested in a Loghain romance might want to put in their two cents here, or PM me about it because I'm making this mod for you, too. The 'second place' scenario in the Alistair romance certainly doesn't seem to be a popular one (the mistress option).  

The real sticking point for me is the idea that he would ever allow himself to truly love on a level that would jeopardize his duty.  As you said, you can't really control your emotions so eventually he would be forced to break it off, right?  

Perhaps. Given the choice and control over how far a relationship goes, he might indeed want to break it off. I guess it would be up to the two involved to decide if they were strong enough, or if it was worth the risk, or if second place was good enough, or whatever. 

You can't have it both ways.  You can't say that he was justified in killing those people because it served the greater good and then when he kills those people and it turns out to not serve the greater good he is absolved due to his intentions.  That doesn't make any sense. 

Speaking from the perspective of my character at the Landsmeet when making the choice whether to execute him or not, his intentions tell me more about his character than his actions do. I do believe that good intentions are not enough to justify some deeds. I also believe that some intentions *are* good enough to justify a seemingly bad deed. I felt that I didn't have enough information to judge his actions to be execution-worthy. And so, it could certainly be argued that I spared Loghain based on my judgment of his character, rather than my judgment of his actions.   

Trying to prove intentions in regards to doling out justice is inherently flawed.  How do you know when you have seen all sides of a story?  I'll use our 'dead baby scenario' ™ as an example.  Man kills baby.  What a dick.  But wait!  The baby had the plague!  He's a saint, he's saved all our lives!  But wait!  The man has killed babies before.  Oh God!  He's a serial baby murderer!  And so on and so forth...  

What you're saying about knowing the whole story is certainly true, and as a person, that's an attribute of my personality that I struggle with  I generally have an arguably bad(?) habit that I do not like to make a judgment of a person or their actions when I feel that I don't have enough information to make that judgment. As a result, however, I very rarely take a strong stance or have a strong opinion about anything because I often assume that I probably don't know enough of the story, and because you can never know all of the story.

So, in the case of Loghain, I felt like I didn't have enough of the story to execute him. I never saw it as absolving him of his actions, I was not ready to judge his actions, I was not even being asked to judge his actions (by anyone except Alistair). I was charged with removing him as Regent, which I did. Execution was not necessary, and I didn't choose it.

[phaonica]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I was very creeped out when Loghain said my CE Warden was "pretty", although having just come from my CE origin story it's pretty understandable. She was definitely thinking "Oh great, out of the frying pan and into the fire --only this fire is way hotter than the pan was. I'm in a strange camp full of armed men, have no confirmed allies except Duncan and one of the first things out of the General's mouth is a comment on how pretty I am. How high is my Stealth skill rating again, and should I shove a Small Claw Trap in my knickers?"

Oh my, I can definitely see how that would be really creepy for a fem!CE.
The first time I talked to Loghain at the Ostagar camp, I was really surprised, not only that a man of his esteem and importance and whatever would even speak to me, but that he was ... nice ... and not in a way that came off as flattery, like when talking to Cailan. He was the *general* and he didn't even reprimand me for interrupting him from whatever he was doing that was doubtlessly gravely serious business, given the upcoming battle. I actually felt bad for interrupting him...

[Morwen Eledhwen]

He was awesome to my DC Warden and she even squeed on him a little. That made her all the more shocked and upset when he abandoned the field and she definitely held a grudge. He was respectful to my Mage and not upset about being interrupted but not particularly warm --spent most of the time taking verbal hacks at Cailan. I watched my friend play as a male Mage and Loghain was not nice to him at all. Though I think my friend's dialogue options may have had something to do with that.

[Monica21]

jvee wrote...
Yes, and then I explained why it isn't a punishment.  You've acknowledged those points are valid.  

Oh no!  The poor man no longer serves Ferelden!  Perish the thought!  The man who committed treason and regicide, led his countrymen into civil war, and sold his people into slavery can't serve his precious Ferelden any more?  Heaven forbid!  That technically isn't even true anyway.  Making him a Grey Warden preserves his overall goal.  He's still serving as protector of Ferelden when he's trying to quash a Blight in their lands.  He's already an old man, any artificial shortening the Joining would have on his life could hardly be considered of consequence.  Considering he has always been a big picture guy, I imagine he thinks being spared is a hell of a deal. 

Loghain has lived his entire life pursuing any means necessary to justify the ends of a stable and protected Ferelden.  Then, when those ends blow up in his face, you rush to defend him.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't say that he was justified in killing those people because it served the greater good and then when he kills those people and it turns out to not serve the greater good he is absolved due to his intentions.  That doesn't make any sense.

I've argued that you have a valid RP reason for killing him, and that's all. It's a choice, just like killing Connor or Isolde or getting the mages.

No, he doesn't serve Ferelden. I don't know if that point is worth arguing because I think you don't understand what it would mean to a man like him. And for the record, I disagree that he committed treason and regicide, but we had that discussion earlier in this thread. He's also hardly old. Early 50s probably, so his artificial shortening would be a reality quite soon. Maybe he'll get five years, but certainly not more than 10 before his Calling.

Actually, I think Loghain pursued any means necessary to justify preserving the potential collapse of Ferelden and letting his short-sighted king hand the country back to Orlais. Chevaliers were massing on the border and his king was ready to let them march in, but refused to call on his uncle's own troops. That is significant to me, and rather foolish of Cailan. In the Landsmeet Loghain says that you can't expect the Orlesian troops to just go back home, and he's correct. Ferelden, even without the civil war, would have been decimated by the Blight and would be easy pickings. I will hold that Loghain keeping Chevaliers out of Ferelden kept them from being re-occupied. So yes, I think it did serve the greater good.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Or what gave you the idea that I'm only judging him based on a year.  Or why that even matters.  I acknowledged his hero status.  His philosophy doesn't change over the course of his life.  His methods are dangerous, those consequences only materialized in the game and not before.

His philosophy does change. It changed when he promised Maric that no man would be more important than Ferelden, and he continues his philosophy.

You are judging him over the course of a year, because you're the one who brings up charges of treason and regicide. Unless you think he should have been beheaded before Ostagar. Whatever he did he did for Ferelden. You determine that everything he's done in the course of that year can only be paid for by having his head on the floor of the Landsmeet. I say that you can only understand his motivations by looking at the course of his life, and I determine that making him a Warden is suitable punishment. We agree that he committed crimes, but we disagree on how he should pay for those crimes.

I don't think we have a different sense of justice.  You seem to believe in the same concept that I do.  What you are arguing is that making him a Grey Warden is 'enough punishment.'  A notion I find ridiculous.  I said in the very post you quoted that justice is a completely separate issue to how the Landsmeet perceives you.  You keep bringing it up when it is completely irrelevant.  I provided the argument of weakness to demonstrate how Loghain's own logic would condemn him, which seems to expose a rather large flaw in his methods considering you continually debate the point.

We disagree on the amount of punishment, which is fine. I never said you couldn't have reasons for your conclusion, just that I have reasons for sparing him. I agree that the perception of the Landsmeet is irrelevant, but you're the one who initially brought it to support your argument.

In conclusion, we established that for you to spare Loghain you have to believe one of two things.  His value supersedes your sense of justice.  Or, becoming a Grey Warden is enough of a punishment for the severity of his crimes.  I feel I successfully negated the punishments you presented for making him a Grey Warden and additionally provided benefits bestowed for his enlistment.  Ultimately, his most immediate goal remains the same, protecting Ferelden.  He is in no way inhibited from what he feels is his duty when you conscript him.  If your reason for sparing him is justice, then you must feel his crimes were negligible.

You have argued that his value supersedes a sense of justice, not me. Again, we're disagreeing on whether the punishment fit  the crime. Keeping a man alive doesn't make the crime negligible, it only means that it isn't worth death.

[Monica21]

I haven't listened to it, but I stole this from the Alistair Gush thread:

tuppence95 wrote...

And yes, Cailan was planning on divorcing Anora for the Empress of Orlais, and Loghain discovered it.  "But of course that's not why he did what he did, Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is."

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

Interesting.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[Sarah1281]

So over in the Alistair thread, someone said that in DG's podcast he confirmed that Cailan WAS going to dump Anora for Celene. While keeping in mind I haven't actually heard the podcast, if this is true...Damn, Loghain's actions are now at least ten times more justifiable than I thought they were! The hell, Cailan? And here I thought Loghain was being overly paranoid when he took one look at Celene's letter and correctly figured out what had happened!



*contemplates leaving Cailan for the wolves next playthrough*

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So over in the Alistair thread, someone said that in DG's podcast he confirmed that Cailan WAS going to dump Anora for Celene. While keeping in mind I haven't actually heard the podcast, if this is true...Damn, Loghain's actions are now at least ten times more justifiable than I thought they were! The hell, Cailan? And here I thought Loghain was being overly paranoid when he took one look at Celene's letter and correctly figured out what had happened!

*contemplates leaving Cailan for the wolves next playthrough*

Same here. I have a hard time believing Loghain's approval drops, but maybe it will because it is Maric's son.

[Giggles_Manically]

Hah, looks like Calian really is an Grade A idiot.

When KoP gets back I can imagine that the worlds loudest : TOLD YA SO! will ring out.



Also I plan to spare Loghain with my current city elf. Total Light Side/Dark Side moment for him.

Listen to reason or Slay the man you despise.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So over in the Alistair thread, someone said that in DG's podcast he confirmed that Cailan WAS going to dump Anora for Celene. While keeping in mind I haven't actually heard the podcast, if this is true...Damn, Loghain's actions are now at least ten times more justifiable than I thought they were! The hell, Cailan? And here I thought Loghain was being overly paranoid when he took one look at Celene's letter and correctly figured out what had happened!

*contemplates leaving Cailan for the wolves next playthrough*

Same here. I have a hard time believing Loghain's approval drops, but maybe it will because it is Maric's son.

Actually, Loghain WANTS you to do this. He doesn't think such a fool deserves a pyre but the darkspawn don't deserve a trophy either. If that's true, I have officially lost all respect for Cailan. And I did not have much to begin with. I can't believe Loghain was actually right about that!

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

I haven't listened to it, but I stole this from the Alistair Gush thread:

tuppence95 wrote...

And yes, Cailan was planning on divorcing Anora for the Empress of Orlais, and Loghain discovered it.  "But of course that's not why he did what he did, Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is."

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

Interesting.

Holy @#$@3, really? *goes off to listen*

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So over in the Alistair thread, someone said that in DG's podcast he confirmed that Cailan WAS going to dump Anora for Celene. While keeping in mind I haven't actually heard the podcast, if this is true...Damn, Loghain's actions are now at least ten times more justifiable than I thought they were! The hell, Cailan? And here I thought Loghain was being overly paranoid when he took one look at Celene's letter and correctly figured out what had happened!

*contemplates leaving Cailan for the wolves next playthrough*

Same here. I have a hard time believing Loghain's approval drops, but maybe it will because it is Maric's son.

Actually, Loghain WANTS you to do this. He doesn't think such a fool deserves a pyre but the darkspawn don't deserve a trophy either. If that's true, I have officially lost all respect for Cailan. And I did not have much to begin with. I can't believe Loghain was actually right about that!

I can't believe Cailan could be that idiotic. I'm actually kind of stunned by this. I'd always thought the letters were there to make us question it, but official confirmation is a definite double facepalm moment. Now I'm questioning how much Eamon's influence had to do with it, and I didn't like him to begin with.

edit: Not only is Loghain the deepest character in DA, he's clearly also the smartest.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 01:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TOOOLDD YAAA SOOO!!!!!! lol

[phaonica]

Yeah, when Loghain was talking about throwing Cailan's body to the wolves, I wanted the dialog option "Don't be an @ass..."



On the topic of Cailan and Celene, though, I'm wondering *when* "Loghain discovered it". My first reaction is that I actually liked Loghain a little better when I thought his decision at Ostagar wasn't influenced by this.

[phaonica]

Hehe, there's KoP with the expected gloating.

I was perfectly open to the idea that the letters might be pointing towards a potential marriage, but I was also okay with the thought that "we'll never know".

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TOOOLDD YAAA SOOO!!!!!! lol

So Knight tell us, how do you feel at this most austipacous of moments?
Knowing that you were right for months?

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, when Loghain was talking about throwing Cailan's body to the wolves, I wanted the dialog option "Don't be an @ass..."

On the topic of Cailan and Celene, though, I'm wondering *when* "Loghain discovered it". My first reaction is that I actually liked Loghain a little better when I thought his decision at Ostagar wasn't influenced by this.

Given how shocked he sounded upon seeing the letters, I doubt he knew before the return to Ostagar. On that note, I now want a 'Cailan deserved it/Loghain was right all along' banner...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TOOOLDD YAAA SOOO!!!!!! lol

So Knight tell us, how do you feel at this most austipacous of moments?
Knowing that you were right for months?

I already knew I was right. Now, the others will also know