12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
So in summary, they revere a lunatic? Well, they wouldn't be the first, lol.

In essence, yea. It's not really clear if Al-Hakim approved of the sect (which started during his life). But it seems he allowed it to exist.

Compare that to Abu Ja'afar al-Mansur the Abbasid Caliph, who executed a sect that venerated him as God.

What I found particularly creepy is how they mysterious only seemed to show up on my doorstep after a night of epic sinning. The type of sinfest that was so much fun, you had trouble remembering it the next morning. And I swear, without fail, they alwaus showed up, knocking on my door. Even some of my friends were creeped out by it, as was my mom, who suggested maybe God was sending them to punish and annoy me, along with the epic hangovers I was often sporting, for having too much fun, lol. But it was weird.

Lol yea that's creepy. Maybe they have spies for that. Of they stalk people and show up when they sin

If you ever go to Spain, I really suggest you visit the Cathedral of Cordoba. When the Catholics took over and conquored Cordoba, they didn't destroy the mosque, but added on and converted it into a Church. They continued to add on or change, and what you have today is a building that is half Medieval Islamic art and architecture, and half Christian of mutiple epochs and artistic ages. The mix and combo is interesting, to say the least, especially because its one of the few places in the world where both systems and styles exist side by side in the same building.

Of course, how can I not visit the monument that Abd Al-Rahman al-Dakhil built.
Yea I've seen picture and it looks beautiful.

[Mike3207]

I'm not sure the Loghain DLC items can be considered canon, especially since you won't have the codex entries unless you purchase them. Still, I don't like the direction Bioware is going.

[Xilizhra]

Well, Loghain is widely considered a traitor unless he kills the Archdemon, and that's only one ending out of six, so it's not that surprising to me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mike Smith wrote...

I'm not sure the Loghain DLC items can be considered canon, especially since you won't have the codex entries unless you purchase them. Still, I don't like the direction Bioware is going.

I am ignoring it personally.

And you and me both. I mean they create this gift of a character that almost single handedly made Origins less painfully cliche, whose ambiguity sparked dozens of debates that lasted for dozens if not hundreds of pages. And now Bioware spits on all of that with an idiotic weapons pack and decide that too much ambiguity is too intelligent and complicated, so let's make the majority who execute him feel good about themselves. Afterall, who needs Loghain, when the same people can write Meredith, right.

Seriously Bioware, you are getting stupid.
Keep Loghain ambiguous. Don't make him a hero, don't make him a villain.
Better yet, don't give that pathetic waste of space Hawke a piece of armor from the Hero of the River Dane.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, Loghain is widely considered a traitor unless he kills the Archdemon, and that's only one ending out of six, so it's not that surprising to me.

He's not. According to Bodahn, who I trust more than an unknown codex and Varric put together, most people are glad he did not die.

Only a few idiots in the Bannorn didn't get over it.

[Xilizhra]

Loghain isn't in the game. He's not a villain or hero, it's just some people are more likely to see him as the former.

In any case, Hawke, regardless of what you think about her inactivity, didn't do her utmost to drive her own country headfirst into the ground while darkspawn massed outside the gates.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
In any case, Hawke, regardless of what you think about her inactivity, didn't do her utmost to drive her own country headfirst into the ground while darkspawn massed outside the gates.

Yes, that's certainly what Loghain did.

Brilliant, the DLC is effective at wiping out all the debates we had about him, with one liners I see.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 août 2011 - 06:29 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
In any case, Hawke, regardless of what you think about her inactivity, didn't do her utmost to drive her own country headfirst into the ground while darkspawn massed outside the gates.

Yes, that's certainly what Loghain did.

Brilliant, the DLC is effective at wiping out all the debates we had about him, with one liners.

I didn't say he did it on purpose. I don't blame him for the retreat at Ostagar. But as skilled and loyal a general as he was, he was a pathetic joke of a politician (which most generals seem to be; commanding subordinates and dealing with those with their own large power bases seem to be sets of skills that don't easily share the same mind) and badly needed dealing with. He was objectively bad for Ferelden during the Blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes, he was not a good politician (and even then, he'd beat Hawke at it). It's debatable whether he was entirely bad for Ferelden. Him saving the army at Ostagar and maintaining it is a large reason as why we were victorious at the end, imo. And as for the Civil war, he does not take the sole blame, the bannorn is even more idiotic, because at least he has an army, they have nothing.

The only thing that he was objectively bad about was his policy with regards to wardens, and that's due to complete ignorance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but he acted like an Orlesian. He should have known, as Teagan said, that the Bannorn wouldn't bow to him simply because he demanded it. They were extremely stubborn, which Loghain had to have known, and he apparently didn't know how to deal with that.

[Monica21]

 I'm in some kind of weird facepalm/headdesk agony right now. Seriously. Agony.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but he acted like an Orlesian. He should have known, as Teagan said, that the Bannorn wouldn't bow to him simply because he demanded it. They were extremely stubborn, which Loghain had to have known, and he apparently didn't know how to deal with that.

Have you read anything in this thread, or are you barging in here, 433 pages in, with an opinion that's been refuted over and over and over again?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but he acted like an Orlesian. He should have known, as Teagan said, that the Bannorn wouldn't bow to him simply because he demanded it. They were extremely stubborn, which Loghain had to have known, and he apparently didn't know how to deal with that.

Yes he should have known that these idiots needed to be manipulated and treated like the children they are, and Eamon assassinated, which for some reason he didn't do. I have always said he made a mistake.

I also contend that the civil war was going to happen anyhow. A lot of factors caused it and what Loghain did was but a spark. I do not think Loghain could have avoided civil war, just alleviate it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


And people wonder why I hate Gaider...huh.

I wouldn't go as far as to say hate, but alot of his past and recent posts, comments, and writing direction have irritated me. And stuff like this is an example why. Even more irritating due to the fact his comments in the old threads clarifying certain things, as well as giving us insight into possible motives Loghain might have, were a big part of people looking at Loghain differently, and debating the nature, reasons, and conseuqnces of his actions. So he knew there was alot of differing interpretations on the issue.

What would have been better is for mentions or codexes regarding Loghain should be subject to how one chose to deal with him in Origins. After all, if he was recruited and sacrificed himself on the AD, even the "history written by the victor" theory isn't as strong, because Loghain's sacrifice could not go unoticed or diminished, and the tone of writings on him should accordingly be adjusted. The monument errected in his honor is mentioned as being frequently visited and honored by many Fereldens. the same goes for if the DR was done and he lives.

Automatically labeling Loghain as a betrayer in historical codexes only makes sense if he was officially executed in disgrace at the landsmeet.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

 I'm in some kind of weird facepalm/headdesk agony right now. Seriously. Agony.

I am just this <_< right now.
Next thing you know, we will have a Meredified Illusive Man. Or worse Orsinofied.

Whatever. Now I know not to expect quality characters from them that much anymore.

[Xilizhra]

Hm, fair enough.

No, I wouldn't say he was a traitor per se. The way the Ostagar battle went down... it could have been won, maybe, but probably not at the point where Loghain retreated. Maybe it was the attack on the Tower of Ishal that ruined it.

[Costin_Razvan]

More reasons for me to never continue my fiction, sigh.

P.S. Knight watched my tribute video?

[RagingCyclone]

Monica21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but he acted like an Orlesian. He should have known, as Teagan said, that the Bannorn wouldn't bow to him simply because he demanded it. They were extremely stubborn, which Loghain had to have known, and he apparently didn't know how to deal with that.

Have you read anything in this thread, or are you barging in here, 433 pages in, with an opinion that's been refuted over and over and over again?

This! Plus read the Stolen Throne...gives a lot of good insight to Loghain's character and why he thinks and does what he did. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
No, I wouldn't say he was a traitor per se. The way the Ostagar battle went down... it could have been won, maybe, but probably not at the point where Loghain retreated. Maybe it was the attack on the Tower of Ishal that ruined it.

My opinion on Ostagar.


@ Costin
Yea sorry, I forgot to comment on it due to the facepalming I've been doing because of the item pack.

It was good, though the ending seems abrupt. Still, Radovid's quote in many ways sumarizes the political plot of the game.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, right, I do remember the Ostagar graphic.

Just to reassure you, I do canonically spare Loghain (and keep him alive afterwards, as I do the DR), and I'm more or less on his side politically. I just think that his technique as a politician was poor.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes he should have known that these idiots needed to be manipulated and treated like the children they are, and Eamon assassinated, which for some reason he didn't do. I have always said he made a mistake.

I also contend that the civil war was going to happen anyhow. A lot of factors caused it and what Loghain did was but a spark. I do not think Loghain could have avoided civil war, just alleviate it.

I agree. Loghain's failure/mistakes were in that he was not ready nor prepared to do what needed to be done, in regards to gaining a grip on the Bannorn. Eamon should have been dead, no incapacitated, as should Teagan. He should have also identified and taken care of those most potentially troublesome nobles, who he would have already known just by the fact he probably had to deal with them alot even during Maric's reign. using any means effective or necessary, including blackmail, assassination, ect.

But even he aknowledges his is a bad politician. He mistakenly believed he was the one who could get a handle on the situation, but I think he allowed alot of sentiment, especially in regards to how he handled Anora, get in his way.

But none of these things make him a traitor, nor do they gurantee he will widely be remembered as such, because there were different routes for one to take in Origins that should reasonably change historical perceptions and accounts, which is generally what codexes are supposed to be about.

[phaonica]

@Codex entries

WTF, Bioware, what happened to shades of gray?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But none of these things make him a traitor, nor do they gurantee he will widely be remembered as such, because there were different routes for one to take in Origins that should reasonably change historical perceptions and accounts, which is generally what codexes are supposed to be about.

Illusion of choice.
And agreed that Loghain allowed his sentiments to get in the way. Many accuse him of having a plan prior to Ostagar, and I criticize him for not having a broader and more extensive plan before the battle (including assassinations, bribery, and agents to sow animosity between specific banns).

You know what would be the killing blow right now?
An idiotic codex like this one on Bhelen. Or worse, one that makes Harrowmont turn out to not be an epic failure.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

@Codex entries

WTF, Bioware, what happened to shades of gray?

Shades of insanity not good enough for you?

[Xilizhra]

You know what would be the killing blow right now?
An idiotic codex like this one on Bhelen. Or worse, one that makes Harrowmont turn out to not be an epic failure.

Out of curiosity, did you complain about Last of His Line before?
Also, how would Harrowmont be made to be better, and why is that worse?