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[KnightofPhoenix]

Why would I?
He can be made better in many ways, which would all be retcons. Why is that bad? Because not only would it be a retcon, but it would be an obvious attempt to make the people who pick Harrowmont feel better about themselves, and would remove the entire point and essence of this choice in the first place.

It was Orzammar that made me believe like an idiot, that Bioware was headed towards a low fantasy with more indepth and realistic political plots.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think DA was ever low fantasy; there was too much and too powerful magic in the world for that.

As for why you'd complain about it, I thought it'd be something about how Hawke would be destabilizing Orzammar or something by allowing Renvil Harrowmont to flee. I'm curious as to what your Hawke did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Killed him. The only useful thing Hawke did.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You know what would be the killing blow right now?
An idiotic codex like this one on Bhelen. Or worse, one that makes Harrowmont turn out to not be an epic failure.

I think that's one of several possible things I'd consider a killing blow as well. And it would be because the ambiguity and shades of grey I liked would be gone, and become more "streamlined". It's stuff like this, as well as numerous other things being "streamlined" that make me skeptical of future releases truly evolving into better, more profound productions.

Origins was by no means perfect, but as a starting point and intro for a completely new franchise, it was incredible. I saw several areas that needed improvement, and alot of other people thought so to. But it had many strengths that were good starting points to improve and develop the franchise, and it's strengths should have been expanded upon and developed further. Yet this was not the direction I felt DA2 took. or at least, the developers had a very different opinion and idea of what was good and what needed change.

As I've said before, DA2 wasn't a complete fail, and there were various improvements over the original. But in general, the direction DA2 went in is simply not one that would interest me if this is to be the future trend. And Loghain's singular treatment, regardless of how you dealt with him in Origins, is but one example of many.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

@Codex entries

WTF, Bioware, what happened to shades of gray?

Shades of insanity not good enough for you?

I thought DA2 had done mostly okay with Loghain, between mostly keeping the betrayer pov to characters where it was most appropriate, yet mentioning that troubles between Orlais and Ferelden are not a complete fabrication. And considering that I thought that most of the Origins cameos were... bad. imo. I was rather happy for them to leave Loghain out of DA2. ...

To be completely fair, though, if a codex came out that declared that Loghain was right about something, would that remove a shade of gray, or reinforce it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
To be completely fair, though, if a codex came out that declared that Loghain was right about something, would that remove a shade of gray, or reinforce it?

Reinforce it, since most by default would not agree.

But I am not asking for that. Just keep all moralizing nonsense out of it and keep him ambiguous. Heck, if they had said that some see him as a traitor, while others see him as a hero, I would have been satisfied. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Killed him. The only useful thing Hawke did.

Mine too. Though there was no RP reason to, other than mo' money, since Hawke would know nothing about Orzammar politics.

This is one of those cases I made a choice because I was certain it could affect future imports. And because i want Bhelen to hang around and make Orzammar awesome, i decided to eliminate the risk for future games where harrowmont's few survives go and start rebellion or cause other problems.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Killed him. The only useful thing Hawke did.

Mine too. Though there was no RP reason to, other than mo' money, since Hawke would know nothing about Orzammar politics.

This is one of those cases I made a choice because I was certain it could affect future imports. And because i want Bhelen to hang around and make Orzammar awesome, i decided to eliminate the risk for future games where harrowmont's few survives go and start rebellion or cause other problems.

The reason I came up with was this:

- First, there is a Carta presence in the city. The last thing I need is for them to view me as an enemy. Of course the game doesn't give a damn and forces us to kill waves of them anyways, but eh.

- I used to think by that point that Hawke was not so ignorant, so he probably had an idea what Orzammar was. He figured getting on its kings good side is probably a good idea. 

[Xilizhra]

I saved him, because I can't imagine why my Hawke would betray him.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No, I wouldn't say he was a traitor per se. The way the Ostagar battle went down... it could have been won, maybe, but probably not at the point where Loghain retreated. Maybe it was the attack on the Tower of Ishal that ruined it.

My opinion on Ostagar.


@ Costin
Yea sorry, I forgot to comment on it due to the facepalming I've been doing because of the item pack.

It was good, though the ending seems abrupt. Still, Radovid's quote in many ways sumarizes the political plot of the game.

Hmm I see then I guess I will extend it by 40 or so seconds of pure action ( which was the original plan ).

As for Harrowmont...well suffice to say the Carta gave me a better offer and Hawke needed money, so that's an RP reason.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 août 2011 - 07:27 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


The reason I came up with was this:

- First, there is a Carta presence in the city. The last thing I need is for them to view me as an enemy. Of course the game doesn't give a damn and forces us to kill waves of them anyways, but eh.

- I used to think by that point that Hawke was not so ignorant, so he probably had an idea what Orzammar was. He figured getting on its kings good side is probably a good idea. 

Those are actually reasonable enough motives, I suppose. But when I played, the only thing I could come up with was mo' money, lol. At that point, because I still hadn't come up with a reason why Hawke would be in Kirkwall, I found a number of descisions were easily rationalized by a flip of a coin, or leaving it up to one of my companions to deal with.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
To be completely fair, though, if a codex came out that declared that Loghain was right about something, would that remove a shade of gray, or reinforce it?

Reinforce it, since most by default would not agree.

Ok, just checking. Because it seemed like to say that one was right and one was wrong was almost by definition turning something black and white. And that works both ways. The whole picture can still be black and white. I feel that this shift has become disappointingly unbalanced.

But I am not asking for that. Just keep all moralizing nonsense out of it and keep him ambiguous. Heck, if they had said that some see him as a traitor, while others see him as a hero, I would have been satisfied. 

They could have almost just replaced the word 'betrayal' with something more ambiguous and that would have been fine. Hell, just put the word 'retreat' there and it's practically fixed, imo.

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


The reason I came up with was this:

- First, there is a Carta presence in the city. The last thing I need is for them to view me as an enemy. Of course the game doesn't give a damn and forces us to kill waves of them anyways, but eh.

- I used to think by that point that Hawke was not so ignorant, so he probably had an idea what Orzammar was. He figured getting on its kings good side is probably a good idea. 

Those are actually reasonable enough motives, I suppose. But when I played, the only thing I could come up with was mo' money, lol. At that point, because I still hadn't come up with a reason why Hawke would be in Kirkwall, I found a number of descisions were easily rationalized by a flip of a coin, or leaving it up to one of my companions to deal with.

I don't think my Hawke even though it through this much. I was pretty much thinking, it's not "good" to give someone your word then back out of it for more money, and chances are it doesn't matter either way. So I just did the "good" thing and didn't really think about it again.

Now, if the Carta thug had told me it'd get rid of the Carta waves, I might have actually given it a second thought.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think DA was ever low fantasy; there was too much and too powerful magic in the world for that.

.

Not at all. In fact, the amount of magic DA has in the setting, with the amiount of limits and consequences, is very low on magic. Compared to a normal or high fantasy setting, DA's magic is very low, because its very limited in scope. Not only that, but it also lacks the uber powerful gods and entities who control everything with supernatural means, and basic human aspects are minimized in importance.

You also have a far fewer number of exotic monsterd and creatures in DA than you do in high fantasy settings. Plus, a much more limited about of sentient races. There really isn't that much powerful magic in DA, at least not in origins.

[Xilizhra]

What about the magic that teleported the magisters to the Black City and ultimately led to the darkspawn? There was plenty of extremely powerful magic in the setting, we just didn't see a whole lot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Back then, we did not even know that happened, it was kept ambiguous and a myth.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Back then, we did not even know that happened, it was kept ambiguous and a myth.

Which in my personal opinion is what made it better.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

What about the magic that teleported the magisters to the Black City and ultimately led to the darkspawn? There was plenty of extremely powerful magic in the setting, we just didn't see a whole lot.

Because, in context of the setting, it was a one time thing, extremely rare, and involved major cataclysmic changes to the setting. The existance of a major supernatural event or cataclysm, or the rare but major act of some incredibly powerful magic does not nullify or effect it's status as low fantasy. Quite the opposite. It even emphasises this, due to the nature and consequences of such acts being incredibly rare.

However, you do not have active, powerful dieties who are constantly controling or influencing the majority of the setting through supernatural means. The number of magic users in the setting is much lower, and their capabilities are much more limited than magic in other settings. The societies and cultures of Thedas are more based on mundane, realworld principles than they are magic ones (The state of magic in Thedas is a socio/religous/political issue, but it's not like societies are run by powerful magical utopia like in other settings). And magic itself is an unusual thing, and very specific in limits and mechanics.

If you want an example of a high fantasy setting, Forgotten realms is your answer. it's often over the top, if that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Back then, we did not even know that happened, it was kept ambiguous and a myth.

Hell, it's even more than that. How about, the Mgisters did in fact enter the Golden City, but not because "We wantz da powah! Mwahahahahahaha!". But more like, as it's been suggested, the City wasn't even golden. Or, even a city. Or maybe the city had been golden, but had turned black, and the Magisters did such an extreme act because they were incredibly concerned, and this was the only way they found to investigate. Or.....pick your scenario. other than "We iz uber eeeebil greedy wizahdz who wants da POWAH!!!"

Or, like tons and tons of things in DA, leave it an issue of a collage of truths, half truths, myths, and mysteries. But the whole "evil sorcerers who are cruel and evil because they like power and that's what power is about" is a very old, tired, and unimaginitive trope too common in many fantasy genres.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd had it to the top of my nose with Bioware, seriously. Sigh.

You'll never see CDPR villainizing Letho later on....I hope.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I haven't gotten that far yet, but then again, I've never been a lover, hater, or supporter of any particular company, I go whereever there's a game being made that i want to play.

Though I've lost interest in ME franchise, that is a completely different development team, and DA3 has maybe just gone into development. Who knows what will happen. Though the general direction is not one to my liking, things can change. Especially if lowered sales and sub par reception are signifgant enough to notice, as they will at least be following the bottom line.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd had it to the top of my nose with Bioware, seriously. Sigh.

You'll never see CDPR villainizing Letho later on....I hope.

Letho flat out admits he is a murderer and a kingslayer, yet he has no problem with that and neither does Geralt save for one comment when he says: "They were murderers Letho, just like you, don't change the subject."

Personally I have no problem with that since unlike Loghain Letho IS what the game tells you he is, but let's you decide whether you can understand and agree with him or not. Same for the Grandmaster ( though in his case it's more about understanding him then agreeing ).

[KnightofPhoenix]

I've never been a supporter of any company either, but it's rare for one company to keep pissing me off like that. Maybe because I still believe there is some hope and I want to be optimistic, and yet they slap me with something idiotic like this or the Legacy codex every now and then.

I am this close to just forgetting about DA as a franchise, and just look at it as independent games, which I would never buy at launch.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Letho flat out admits he is a murderer and a kingslayer, yet he has no problem with that and neither does Geralt save for one comment when he says: "They were murderers Letho, just like you, don't change the subject."

Personally I have no problem with that since unlike Loghain Letho IS what the game tells you he is, but let's you decide whether you can understand and agree with him or not. Same for the Grandmaster ( though in his case it's more about understanding him then agreeing ).

Of course Letho is a murderer, that's a fact, he knows it. Murder is not as heavy loaded and subjective a term as "treason."

But say if CDPR asserts that Letho betrayed the Witchers, then I would not like such a terminology. He certainly broke Witcher codes, if there are any (so did Geralt). That does not mean he betrayed his Witcher school.

[Costin_Razvan]

There are no Witcher codes, only personal codes each Witcher creates for himself.