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[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's really that line that made me jump to that conclusion. Because he obviously was not as reviled as he was revered during the civil war, most people were with him and he was winning.

He only becomes very reviled (as much as he was revered pretty much
means universally) if his "crimes" were exposed at the Landsmeet and he
is executed in disgrace.

Exactly, because if he *were* as reviled as he was revered, he probably wouldn't have had enough support for a civil war to occur. And also, since we were right there playing out the Blight and it wasn't mentioned, I jumped to the conclusion that this must have been an event that occured after the game was over.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If they had to mention him, they could at least put some thought into it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

The staff of Violation's Lore is definitely of interest, as it creates a very interesting picture and scenario of the early days of the Circle system.

Indeed... do you think Orsino's angry letter is accurate, or is he mistaken/lying?

.

No idea, and I can't really speculate, because so little information or context was given for me to speculate. Orsino was absent most of the game, then thrown at me from left field, then jumped back out in a blob monster costume. In origins, even playing a non-mage, I get more an idea and context of what sort of person Irving was from codexes, the brief chats, and info I picked up on the Circle than I did Orsino. And thus, I have no idea if he would be the sort to lie about it. Especially as the staff itself does not seem specifically tied to anything sinister that I can tell, though it looks that way.

Given the brief codex and it's vague, but darker implications, my guess is, is that the original owner had to use it alot on other mages, and probably had to kill alot of decent mages as sacrifices to keep the Circle from destruction by the templars, as sort of being harsher so maybe the templars might back off and the Circle might not get annulled. Though the part about her getting taken by a demon puzzles me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...

Exactly, because if he *were* as reviled as he was revered, he probably wouldn't have had enough support for a civil war to occur. And also, since we were right there playing out the Blight and it wasn't mentioned, I jumped to the conclusion that this must have been an event that occured after the game was over.

There's certainly indication in the epilogues that he is far from hated or reviled if he made the US himself, and Anora builds his statue overlooking the orlesian embassy, which gets visited frequently and honored. In another epilogue, if Loghain is executed at the landsmeet with Anora as sole queen, she still builds the statue, but this time, it is widely ignored and forgotten by everyone but her. Even in the DAO epilogues, they show two very different outcomes in popular perception and opinion based on what Loghain did. And, if he lives because the DR was done, it says he becomes a recruiter for the Grey Wardens in Ferelden and is highly successful due to his status as revered war hero (even if Awakening changes this by shipping him off to orlais, the concept is still there).

[KnightofPhoenix]

*facepalm*

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



*facepalm*

That's just.........embarassing. I mean, REALLY embrassing......

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maybe it was a Freudian slip (fixated with getting Nasrallah perhaps?).

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*facepalm*

That's just.........embarassing. I mean, REALLY embrassing......

Wow. Fail.

Modifié par phaonica, 24 août 2011 - 03:06 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

You know, I could look at a blank map with no boundaries or names marked on it, and still at leastbe able to point to the general area where Tripoli is. Hint: It's no where near Lebanon......

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...

No matter what BW thought, we all have our opinions. Maybe BW did just want a one dimensional character, and accidentally got more. Maybe they wanted the depth so many people see in Loghain. Either way, it's there.

Well I do hope they didn't make Loghain awesome by accident...

Still, I do agree with the sentiment.

phaonica wrote...

I just find it hard to fathom having a discussion/debate about conflicts or characters if nothing can be considered a fact.

Well I only meant codices and epilogue slides. What we see in the game is a different case, that can be considered as fact.

My complaint is that they throw the word 'betrayer' out there without any recognition of other potential points of view, without acknowledging the debate that surrounded the scope of his guilt. And again, to be fair, IMO, I thought that Alistair and Zevran got similar caricature treatments, which I was no more pleased with than this.

That is fair of course. And now I'm curious, what do you mean with Alistair and Zev?

That's true, and I think it's because Bhelen's betrayal, in your words is "not even debatable." If, however, a codex definitively refered to Bhelen's systematic execution of his opposition as "monstrous", I would probably have a problem with that, because that *is* debatable.

Also fair. Heh, I really don't even want to imagine the reaction to that...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I ninjaed you
I realized the possibility of it being during the civil war. They should have mentioned that.

But the "he is as reviled as he was revered" is just completely unnecessary and inaccurate.

Haha!

I do agree they should've made that clearer. If it was meant to be taken as a fact, the time of events is certainly important.

I suppose the line was meant to reinforce the whole polarizing aspect of his character, but you are right there, especially given the ambiguity in the entry.

Finally, I'm not getting that picture... someone please explain it to sill me. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 24 août 2011 - 03:17 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...


Finally, I'm not getting that picture... someone please explain it to sill my.

because the city of Tripoli is marked on that map about 1000 miles off from where it should be marked. In fact, it's correct location isn't even shown on that map.

[Zjarcal]

Oh, gotcha! Sorry, I know nothing about that area so I was in the dark.

And yeah, that's fail.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
I suppose the line was meant to reinforce the whole polarizing aspect of his character, but you are right there, especially given the ambiguity in the entry.

Finally, I'm not getting that picture... someone please explain it to sill me. 

" the general became as reviled as he had once been revered."
That's not really underlining his polarizing aspect to me.

And to be fair, there is a Tripoli in Lebanon but...yea it's an inexcusable fail.

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I just find it hard to fathom having a discussion/debate about conflicts or characters if nothing can be considered a fact.

Well I only meant codices and epilogue slides. What we see in the game is a different case, that can be considered as fact.

Unless it is retconned. Really, the devs can change any fact they want to, even if we see it in game. I liked being able to pull certain 'facts' from the codices, but not if they're going to editorialize.

And now I'm curious, what do you mean with Alistair and Zev?

Without going into great detail, I thought the cameos didn't add anything to their character. I felt that their surface characteristics were exaggerated and oversimplified. Particularly Alistair who is either a pity-party drunk or a king that sounds way too much like Cailan to make me comfortable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Or maybe we are just "butthurt" and like to complain for the sake of it, as a few who generally complain when others are as rude to them, would say.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wellcome to the Dark Side, greengoron. We have cookies aplenty for all admirers of Teyrn Awesome.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...
Without going into great detail, I thought the cameos didn't add anything to their character. I felt that their surface characteristics were exaggerated and oversimplified. Particularly Alistair who is either a pity-party drunk or a king that sounds way too much like Cailan to make me comfortable.

Which is why, sadly, I am thankful Alistair died gloriously in my canon import. After seeing the cameos on You Tube, I agree it added nothing to him, and even seemed to take no notice of his potential personality changes. hardened or not. I think, especially his King Cameo, should have reflected a difference in his overall personality at least.

The only cameo of Alistair's. that i actually liked and felt displayed his character the best was his Warden cameo. And I don't even want to go into Zevran's cameo, for aesthetic reasons alone. I'm still not down with the DA2 elf mutant look.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If they had to mention him, they could at least put some thought into it.

I'm actually, and oddly, quite sad about it, but they didn't put any thought into Meredith or Orsino so I don't know. I don't know why it's so hard to carry over the ambiguity or at least acknowledge it. Loghain was already written, already done. They didn't have to write new stuff, but they made him just as boring as their DA2 villians.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If they had to mention him, they could at least put some thought into it.

I'm actually, and oddly, quite sad about it, but they didn't put any thought into Meredith or Orsino so I don't know. I don't know why it's so hard to carry over the ambiguity or at least acknowledge it. Loghain was already written, already done. They didn't have to write new stuff, but they made him just as boring as their DA2 villians.

I know. Sigh, I hope Bioware realizes the error of its ways soon.

[Monica21]

 I imported a drunken Alistair save and I think that whoever is writing these entries just didn't paying attention or it's some new guy who played the game once. My codex entry for drunk Alistair says that he turned down the throne when he did not. He demanded it and then left when I wouldn't give it to him. I'd rather give the throne to Anora or Anora and Alistair, but I never let him rule alone. I'm not an Alistair fan, but I recognize that he's a good character and to have what happened in Ferelden written in such a shallow way is disheartening too.

[Maria13]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



*facepalm*

That's just.........embarassing. I mean, REALLY embrassing......

Oh, f**k! First you've got to find it on the map dunderheads... It's like that scene in "Life of Brian" where John Cleese is teaching Graham Chapman to write proper Latin for his 'Romans go home' graffiti...

Modifié par Maria13, 24 août 2011 - 05:45 .

[phaonica]

greengoron89 wrote...

Loghain is a deep and tragic character, indeed. I think I'm siding with the sympathizers, henceforth

Another convert! Yay! Welcome, greengoron. <3

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh I forgot to welcome greengoron. Welcome! Hopefully you can participate, we need new blood here.

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think, especially his King Cameo, should have reflected a difference in his overall personality at least.

Agreed. I had hoped that the cameos would have portrayed some growth/maturity in Alistair's character, whether it be really rising to the occasion and acting more like a king than a jester, or after having hit the bottle, picking himself up either by starting over or considering that he might have overreacted.

The only cameo of Alistair's. that i actually liked and felt displayed his character the best was his Warden cameo.

I had forgotten about his Warden cameo, but I agree with you that this cameo seemed to show Alistair at his best. His silly side was there, but he seemed to take his responsibilities more seriously and respectfully. Also, I thought the romance acknowledgements were better, too.