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Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age


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#10926
Guest_greengoron89_*

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Why thank you - I am honored to join your ranks. I'll also take some of those cookies you promised, if you don't mind (as will Sten). :P

I'm currently doing a fifth and final run through DA:O. It will be my "canon" one, before moving on to DA2 (finally - I bought it a month ago and still haven't played it). I will spare Loghain this time, and have him slay the Archdemon - not because I want him dead, but because he deserves to have his honor restored in the eyes of the people (and because having him sent to Orlais seems really mean :blink:).

Not allowing Morrigan to give birth to the Antichrist is also a plus - no sensible Grey Warden would ever allow such a thing to take place, love or no.

Of course, if your conversation in previous pages in any indication, it seems DA2 sort of undoes Loghain's redemption by suggesting he's "as reviled as he was revered" - most disappointing, that is. Stuff like that makes me apprehensive about playing DA2 at all, especially considering all of the other not-so-nice things I've heard about the game.

Here's to DA2 not disappointing me as much as I fear.

Modifié par greengoron89, 24 août 2011 - 06:29 .


#10927
alschemid

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Monica21 wrote...
I'm actually, and oddly, quite sad about it, but they didn't put any thought into Meredith or Orsino so I don't know. I don't know why it's so hard to carry over the ambiguity or at least acknowledge it. Loghain was already written, already done. They didn't have to write new stuff, but they made him just as boring as their DA2 villians.


Thank you for posting the codex entries, although it makes me very sad too... if Bioware doesn't want to make interesting characters for their games any more why defile the one we have for a stupid item pack?  <_<

#10928
Darkrider296

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Persephone wrote...

I was about to start my reply with a warning like: Expect a lot of Loghain bashing....<br />
<br />
But that would be too late, I suppose.<br />
<br />
There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.<br />
<br />
I myself prefer the anti-hero interpretation. I take no delight in butchering him in front of his daughter (Some do, it sickens me), I do not think that his hatred of Orlais is unwarranted or overly paranoid, after "The Calling", I also understand his contempt for the Wardens. Do I condone everything he did? No. Do I think his desire to sacrifice his life AND soul to destroy the AD were motivated by wanting to be a hero? No. He only has contempt for hero worship, he'll tell you that more than once. Of course him begging you to allow him to "do one last thing right" can only be a last grab at glory, right? Hello, have you met Loghain? Glory, tales, heroism...he despises all that short lived nonsense.<br />
<br />
Playing RTO with him was as engaging as it was illuminating. Nobody shuts Wynne up like him, hah!<br />
<br />
Anyway, back to the original poster: Yes, I agree. He has more depth than all the other DAO and DAA characters combined. Flaws and all. <br />
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As for those he "calls enemies": He has every right after what happened during the occupation.


Well to bad if I sicken you, I think Loghain is a bastard who deserves to die no matter what. In reality a man like that would have to be executed or put in prison for life. No other option is rational. He may have been a hero at one point but people sometimes change not for the better. He damn well knew what he was doing at Ostagar and he allied himself with some one as sickening as Arl Howe, you know murder of the Couslands and their entire estate. Theres no way Loghain didn't know about. And lets not forgot about all of the Elves he sold into slavery some of which were childern. Bastard thinks he knows whats best yeah right. Plus Anora is a cold calculating ****, look at how she jumps up so fast to be Queen even with her father's fresh blood on her Plus lets not forget how she sold u out when u were trying to save her. Better option is a hardened Alistair. He's a tough but fair ruler. 
So yeah I like butchering Loghain in front of Anora :devil:

#10929
Darkrider296

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forgot to say that after about on 5th line

#10930
Zjarcal

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phaonica wrote...

The only cameo of Alistair's. that i actually liked and felt displayed his character the best was his Warden cameo.

I had forgotten about his Warden cameo, but I agree with you that this cameo seemed to show Alistair at his best. His silly side was there, but he seemed to take his responsibilities more seriously and respectfully. Also, I thought the romance acknowledgements were better, too.


Yeah, his waden cameo is awesome. Hell, it actually made me feel happy to see him again, which considering my feelings on Alistair, is no small feat.

I didn't dislike his drunk cameo (I actually liked it) since I never expected that cameo to be anything more than some sort of comic relief. Still, I can see why others would think the cameo ends up being pointless and a missed opportunity of sorts.

#10931
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Darkrider296 wrote...
Well to bad if I sicken you, I think Loghain is a bastard who deserves to die no matter what. In reality a man like that would have to be executed or put in prison for life. No other option is rational. He may have been a hero at one point but people sometimes change not for the better. He damn well knew what he was doing at Ostagar and he allied himself with some one as sickening as Arl Howe, you know murder of the Couslands and their entire estate. Theres no way Loghain didn't know about. And lets not forgot about all of the Elves he sold into slavery some of which were childern. Bastard thinks he knows whats best yeah right. Plus Anora is a cold calculating ****, look at how she jumps up so fast to be Queen even with her father's fresh blood on her Plus lets not forget how she sold u out when u were trying to save her. Better option is a hardened Alistair. He's a tough but fair ruler. 
So yeah I like butchering Loghain in front of Anora :devil:


Loghain let his paranoia about Orlais get the better of him - that is what drove him to do what he did. Nothing he did was out of sheer malevolence - he felt everything he did was for the greater good, whether he was actually right to do it or not. Howe, on the other hand, was just an evil man who slaughtered and tortured his way to the top - possibly having more power and influence than Loghain himself does at one point.

What Loghain was right to do was pull out of Ostagar. There was no way that battle could've been won - the darkspawn were too many. Even if they had won the battle on that night, the next would have just brought an even larger horde than before - and the king's forces would've still been overwhelmed by numbers alone. Loghain's withdrawal from Ostagar saved more lives than it ultimately cost.

I'm curious as to who you put on the throne in Orzammar - would you deny that Bhelen is the better king? His methods were no less devious that anything Loghain ended up doing, and they both think they're doing what's best for their people. The only difference is that Bhelen is ultimately right to do what he does, whereas Loghain isn't.

Would you also deny that Anora is the better ruler of Ferelden? She governed the country for several years while Cailan gallivanted about - and conspired to leave Anora for the Empress of an enemy nation. Alistair might be a fine man, but he is no king - not at first, at least. He certainly wouldn't do as well as he does without people like Eamon and the Warden around to give him a nudge in the right direction.

Say what you will, but Loghain is no fiend. He is a good man who let his grief and paranoia drive him to do the wrong things. After sparing several murderers and crowning a dwarven tyrant, I think Loghain deserves a chance to redeem himself - and he always does.

Modifié par greengoron89, 24 août 2011 - 07:53 .


#10932
KnightofPhoenix

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Zjarcal wrote...
I didn't dislike his drunk cameo (I actually liked it) since I never expected that cameo to be anything more than some sort of comic relief. Still, I can see why others would think the cameo ends up being pointless and a missed opportunity of sorts.


It was pretty *Xanatos voice* informative.

Made me glad that I had him executed, not that I regretted it in the slightest.

#10933
phaonica

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Zjarcal wrote...

I didn't dislike his drunk cameo (I actually liked it) since I never expected that cameo to be anything more than some sort of comic relief. Still, I can see why others would think the cameo ends up being pointless and a missed opportunity of sorts.


I think what I was really wanting was to be proud of him, and since I couldn't I was disappointed. I know these cameos were probably meant to be brief and fun, but to me yeah, they seemed like caricatures and a missed opportunity.

#10934
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
I didn't dislike his drunk cameo (I actually liked it) since I never expected that cameo to be anything more than some sort of comic relief. Still, I can see why others would think the cameo ends up being pointless and a missed opportunity of sorts.


It was pretty *Xanatos voice* informative.

Made me glad that I had him executed, not that I regretted it in the slightest.



Believe me, I am glad you had him executed rather than exiled, and he is probably very glad you had him executed, after what they did to his face in DA2.....:?

#10935
KnightofPhoenix

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phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I didn't dislike his drunk cameo (I actually liked it) since I never expected that cameo to be anything more than some sort of comic relief. Still, I can see why others would think the cameo ends up being pointless and a missed opportunity of sorts.


I think what I was really wanting was to be proud of him, and since I couldn't I was disappointed. I know these cameos were probably meant to be brief and fun, but to me yeah, they seemed like caricatures and a missed opportunity.


Honestly, barring his hideous looks, I was proud of Zevran. He's taking on the Antivan crows single handedly like the mastermind he is.

#10936
DragonRacer13

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Re: Tripoli map... that reminds me of the time a local news station screwed up a university during a football report. They showed the location of Auburn University as being in Georgia. Well, there IS an Auburn, Georgia... but Auburn University is in Alabama. Entirely different state. Posted Image had a lot of fun teasing the team's fans about that, but still inexcusable considering how seriously people take their college football down here in the South. BUT... that was a local news station. This is frickin' CNN. Sad.

Re: Loghain's armor DLC. Sigh. Just sigh. What's bothersome to me is that they ignore what fate he received in your playthrough. If Loghain is spared, he either ends up in Orlais with the Grey Wardens or dies a hero killing the Archdemon. He always wore the Armor of River Dane so when, exactly, are these looting jackals supposedly getting their hands on it? If he's a Warden, I'm sure he's wearing it down to the Deep Roads on his Calling. If he died slaying the Archdemon, would Anora not have buried him in it with full honors? Hell, even executing him at the Landsmeet... what, did they just toss his body out back and let scavengers strip him?

Also, welcome, greengoron! Posted Image

#10937
KnightofPhoenix

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To be fair, I think the armor is the one he wore prior and during the battle of the River Dane. Not the River Dane armor.

#10938
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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I haven't even looked at any of the pictures of the item pack Loghain armor models. I'm still tripping out on the mage staff......

#10939
KnightofPhoenix

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The armor doesn't look that bad. The rogue one looks kind of good.

#10940
Monica21

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The armor doesn't look that bad. The rogue one looks kind of good.

Yeah, I actually really do like the look of it. It's wintery and stuff. Not sure about the peach accents, but, eh.

#10941
Mike3207

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So how old would Loghain be at the end of DA2 if he's still alive?

#10942
Costin_Razvan

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60

#10943
phaonica

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Yeah, I'm thinking 60ish, too.

#10944
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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He's roughly about 50 when origins starts, so yeah, if he's still alive at the end of DA2 (which is unlikely, both due to origins epilogues, as well as the developers seeming trend to relegate him to backhistory).

Which, for a 50 year who has lived as hard a life as he has, he looks damned good, compared to Eamon, who's younger, yet looks like he could be Loggy's grand dad.

#10945
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

He's roughly about 50 when origins starts, so yeah, if he's still alive at the end of DA2 (which is unlikely, both due to origins epilogues, as well as the developers seeming trend to relegate him to backhistory).

Which, for a 50 year who has lived as hard a life as he has, he looks damned good, compared to Eamon, who's younger, yet looks like he could be Loggy's grand dad.


Wow, Eamon is younger than Loghain? That's crazy! :blink:

Perhaps Isolde's accent is to blame - years and years of having to hear her talk every single day would probably turn me old and grey, as well. I might have even sprouted a few grey hairs myself just from running through DA:O's campaign a few times.

Modifié par greengoron89, 25 août 2011 - 08:51 .


#10946
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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greengoron89 wrote...


Wow, Eamon is younger than Loghain? That's crazy! :blink:

Perhaps Isolde's accent is to blame - years and years of having to hear her talk every single day would probably turn me old and grey, as well. I might have even sprouted a few grey hairs myself just from running through DA:O's campaign a few times.



YYep, lol, Eamon is supposed to be only about 45 (maybe younger, if you go by The Stolen Throne, where Eamon is mentioned as being a little kid when Loghain is about 18 or so and fighting in the rebellion).

Yeah, Isolde would make any man old and grey before his time. :pinched:

#10947
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Wow, that's pretty sad.

But wait - how old is Isolde, then? Someone in the game mentioned that Eamon had married a woman "much younger than him."

#10948
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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greengoron89 wrote...

Wow, that's pretty sad.

But wait - how old is Isolde, then? Someone in the game mentioned that Eamon had married a woman "much younger than him."



It's never stated specifically, but yeah, she's supposed to be alot younger that Eamon. There's some possible timeline conflict, but I'd guess her age as probably about late 20's/early 30's.

#10949
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It's never stated specifically, but yeah, she's supposed to be alot younger that Eamon. There's some possible timeline conflict, but I'd guess her age as probably about late 20's/early 30's.


I thought (or hoped) she was a little older than that - I guessed around mid-30s. She had been with Eamon since before Alistair was sent to the Chantry, at least. Alistair is probably in his mid-20s, and he was supposedly sent off when he was still a child.

So Isolde must have been in her 20s when she got together with Eamon - or so I would hope, because the alternative is considerably more creepy... :unsure:

#10950
KnightofPhoenix

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A common theory for Eamon's looks is his poisoning. It may have left a physical impact and he never got time to shave his beard.

The easy answer is that Bioware thought you need an old mentor like figure. One I enjoyed backstabbing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2011 - 09:40 .