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[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: In the situation your Warden taking over the state, yes, but that's not the case in Addai's fiction.

Yea, when I am going to read it, it won't be for the politics, doing so would likely cause a headache or something
Especially when it's inspired by Stolen Throne, which I found intolerable were it not for Loghain, who made it barely tolerable.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Landsmeet itself is not a bad system, though it could use refinement. My biggest problem with it is that it is peopled by idiots mostly. If you got rid of the morons, it would probably function alot better. The idocy, in my opinion, is due to the general inherited nature of the positions, instead of choosing the best and brightest minds.

As far as the Stolen Throne, it lacked in politics because it wasn't really about politics. It was about the real man, Maric, who was not quite what his popular legend percieved him to be. It was more a story of how legend often veers away from reality. And Loghain was the man behind the Maric who made him the legendary king.

It wasn't a great book, true, but the concept was interesting enough. Never read song of ice and fire, might get around to it someday.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's not rapprochement, that's Anora/Loghain accepting all the demands of the Landsmeet...well almost all of them except not his death, and the Stolen Throne is pathetic in terms of politics, or are you going to tell me Gaider knows how to write politics. Laughable.

I'm talking about Loghain's character.  Whether you like TST or not, it's part of Loghain's character that he understands and is willing to make sacrifices for political purposes.

No need to insult Gaider again.  I'll try not to be insulted by proxy.

A song of Ice and Fire is good in terms of politics. There's real compromise, headstrong idiots ( Think of Stannis, Renly and Joeffrey ), backstabing, family betrayal, ransoming etc.

No one in Westeros is a good politician except Tyrion.  Long may he live.  I think I had plenty of backstabbing and betrayals in TA, but you're welcome to disagree.  It had to end sometime.  Or you were hoping for a bloodbath?

And by Germanic thing, you mean the Holy Roman Empire?

No, I'm referring to the ancient practice of the moot.  "Thing" is a Germanic word.  HRE and Bismarck is an entirely different game, and one I thought was more to your liking (conquest and empire).

Knight: In the situation your Warden taking over the state, yes, but that's not the case in Addai's fiction.

Anora is taking over the state.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:50 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I'm talking about Loghain's character. Whether you like TST or not, it's part of Loghain's character that he understands and is willing to make sacrifices for political purposes.

No need to insult Gaider again. I'll try not to be insulted by proxy.

That's not the point. In my mind it is bad politics for Loghain to just accept his condemnation as a criminal instead of striking a deal, yes a deal, that would see Loghain removed from the regency and kept as Teyrn. The fact is Loghain had half the nobility behind him, and the other half was Eamon's hand.

It is also bad politics for Anora to do this, yes she should try and get a peace but not at the cost of exiling her father and making him join the Wardens.

No one in Westeros is a good politician except Tyrion. Long may he live. I think I had plenty of backstabbing and betrayals in TA, but you're welcome to disagree. It had to end sometime. Or you were hoping for a bloodbath?

I talked about the events, not the characters. I think Stannis is a fool in many ways, but his actions make sense. That I do not agree with the fact that he is unwilling to give anything in negotiations in another matter.

No, I'm referring to the ancient practice of the moot. "Thing" is a Germanic word. HRE and Bismarck is an entirely different game, and one I thought was more to your liking (conquest and empire).

Bismarck I like, I also admire certain HRE Emperors, but the fact remains the system was deeply flawed there.

Anora is taking over the state.

Anora is getting involved in a political marriage with a boy who hates her, certainly expected but whatever.

Perhaps I expected more then for you to follow the game plot line.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Perhaps I expected more then for you to follow the game plot line.

That's a legitimate criticism, and some reviewers have said they expected the story to be more AU than it is.  I don't see the game story as badly flawed, however, so it was never my intention to flip it on its head completely.   Sorry if you're disappointed. On the other side, reviewers have said it has made them re-evaluate Loghain and see him as a human being and with complicated motives behind the familiar game decisions and events.  If I had diverted too much from the original, they might have found it a cop-out.  Whatever- I value the honest criticism, but the story is what it is.  It's my story and this is how I wanted to tell it. 

BTW I think Loghain did not have half the nobility.  By that time, he had lost most of the nobility and was losing credibility in the armies, too.  Anora was also in an extremely weak position.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:27 .

[Mike3207]

Was a Fergus-Anora marriage ever considered? It might have given Anora a stronger position at the Landsmeet.

[Costin_Razvan]

BTW I think Loghain did not have half the nobility. By that time, he had lost most of the nobility and was losing credibility in the armies, too. Anora was also in an extremely weak position.

Based on what exactly? If you don't persuade the nobles at the Landsmeet ( and in a few cases you must buy their loyalty ) then they back Loghain. He had allies, strong ones at that. That they pounced on him once he was weakened by the Warden is another matter.

As for the army. Really? Loghain personally trained and fought alongside most of the officers, the ones who the common solders follow orders to the letter. This is why I disliked that scene where you have some of the officers grumbling about abandoning Cailan at Ostagar, real officers DO NOT complain especially when they knew the desperation of the situation. Also all the soldiers that I spoke to at Ostagar that talked about the coming battle did not seem convinced it could be won.

Couple that with Loghain's hero status and I find it extremely hard to believe the regular army would abandon him. Of course there's all the troops from other nobles but still given all the bickering, backstabing and infighting among nobles they would sooner look up to someone of Loghain's legendary status.

When Caesar was summoned by the senate to be arrested he went to his troops, told them the situation and they all agreed to march on Rome without hesitation. Think of it, he was so well loved that his ENTIRE army was willing to commit a coup against the established governement..

There's also the case when some of his troops wanted to get their land during the civil war. Caesar had no land to give, but he went to them, lied that he was giving them the land and then discharging them. The end result? They BEGGED him to allow them to fight for him, for free even.

That is the power a general has over his army. In some ways Loghain is Caesar ( especially political stupidity ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:53 .

[Addai]

Mike Smith wrote...

Was a Fergus-Anora marriage ever considered? It might have given Anora a stronger position at the Landsmeet.

I did consider it.  However, I hadn't given Fergus quite the same god power as a Warden PC- on purpose.  I don't think that marriage would have held much weight.  Elissa was in a better position to swing the Landsmeet, but even her support was tenuous.  She would have been seen as a twice-over backstabber and she lost some ground with the banns by speaking out for Loghain.

@ Costin:  We're not talking about a modern army nor the Romans.  You should read more about Germanic warriors.  They did not hold their leaders as god-like, and they spoke their mind, considering themselves free men who followed someone because of his courage, not because they had to.  That is the model I use here.  Loghain's a leader to the armies because he fights with them, but no soldier likes to lose a battle, and by the end of it all, Loghain was losing a lot.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Modern army? Really? How about any standing army in history of man and not some tribal army, which I do not think can apply.

And yes Loghain had a standing army I think. I do not say he had control over all the Fereldan troops, but the best ones? Definitively.

[Addai]

Those "tribal armies" were pretty effective in conquering territory, including Rome- a couple of times over.

No doubt the difference is that I actually admire the banns for standing up to Loghain. They underestimated the threat of the Blight, but so did he.

[Costin_Razvan]

You mean they were effective in conquering a weak state that had no leadership by that time and was constantly plagued in civil strife? Take those tribes against Augustus's Empire and see how well they fare, and just because one idiot lost three Legions doesn't mean Rome was in direct danger itself, in fact the next Roman expedition to go into Germany trashed them hard.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You mean they were effective in conquering a weak state that had no leadership by that time and was constantly plagued in civil strife? Take those tribes against Augustus's Empire and see how well they fare, and just because one idiot lost three Legions doesn't mean Rome was in direct danger itself, in fact the next Roman expedition to go into Germany trashed them hard.

Minimize it however you want.  The Romans were certainly shocked by their city being sacked by "barbarians."

Anyway, this is my interpretation of events.  My intent was to have a character driven story and explore the impact of an arranged marriage.  You can write up your Loghain as Caesar metaphor and have him strike the banns down by the power of the icy blue glare alone.  I'd probably love that story. 

[Costin_Razvan]

I am writing it.

I do not deny they managed to conquer Rome, but to me what they achieved is insignificant to what Rome achieved when it had a strong central government.

Perhaps I should talk of Ghenkis Khan and his own personal rule? Since military conquest is all that is important perhaps the guy who waged war on half the world would stand as the perfect example. Just so we are clear while I find him bloody impressive not the state that followed him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[Addai]

I certainly find Genghis Khan an interesting figure. I've got a book about him queued up on Nook, albeit more about the role of women in his khanate. Also I'm not sure what you're referring to by "military conquest is all that is important." Is that a dig at me? Because I said I've modeled Fereldans on Germanic ideals? That's the game story, as far as I can see. Ferelden is analogous to Anglo-Saxon England.

My, you're cranky today. Sorry I put you off that much. lol

Modifié par Addai67, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You said yourself the German tribes were impressive because they managed to beat Rome

I find Ghenghis Khan far more impressive.

[Addai]

You dismissed their model as irrelevant. We could talk about Rus or England, if you like. Or Constantinople, which would probably have fallen to the Turks sooner but for the Varangian Guard. Not that it really matters. You have your view on how Fereldans would act, I have mine. If you see them as Roman soldiers, with tight ranks and perfect discipline, you're free to take that interpretation. I don't really see it.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't see the entire Fereldan army as such, just Maric's shield and perhaps the other royal standing army.

I would use the Norman army of William the Conqueror as a basis of how the Fereldan army is structured.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for the army. Really? Loghain personally trained and fought alongside most of the officers, the ones who the common solders follow orders to the letter. This is why I disliked that scene where you have some of the officers grumbling about abandoning Cailan at Ostagar, real officers DO NOT complain especially when they knew the desperation of the situation. Also all the soldiers that I spoke to at Ostagar that talked about the coming battle did not seem convinced it could be won.

I'm not sure this is the case.  Firstly, especially in the fuedal era and in a decentralized state such as Feredan, I doubt most of the officers would be "real."  They'd be nobles with overlapping lords and loyalties, not a professional corps bound to a state.  Also, I don't think their army was professional.  They may have been lifelong soldiers and perhaps in pay, but Ostagar was a conglomorate of forces brought in from all over Fereldan each under the banner of some important noble.

I don't think a comparison with Rome is apt.  It was ostensibly a citzen and professional army in service to the Roman Senate.  It is true by the time of Gaius Marius, it was clear it was now loyal to commanders who could provide for them, but what was at Ostagar was not a fulltime professional army with a history of campaigning (and plundering) under Loghain.  

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't see the entire Fereldan army as such, just Maric's shield and perhaps the other royal standing army.

I would use the Norman army of William the Conqueror as a basis of how the Fereldan army is structured.

The Normans are also Germanic. 

I did make Ferelden's army out to be made up of a good number of professional soldiers.  In fact I specifically stated that they were that way solely because Loghain had made them that way.  But he would not have had the resources to keep a large standing army.  Rather I see it that he had his cadre, his "Gwaren men," as I referred to them, and he tried to professionalize the nobles' armies by supervision and training.  However his authority over those troops would have been honorary, especially after Maric's death when his political position was weakened, much moreso after the defeat at Ostagar and in the ensuing civil war.  All bets were really off, at that point.  Elissa's point in this chapter was that Loghain was trying to coast on past authority that no longer existed in reality.

Sorry, but I think you're operating on a bit of hero worship.  I've told you before that I thought you (and KoP, too, not to drag him into this- lol) had your own mental version of Loghain which was not the same Loghain in the story.  The very fact that you throw TST in the trash can is an indication you're not really talking about the game character, rather some guy you've built up in your head.  Well alright, we all have our mental image of him and much as I've tried to stick to the lore, I'm sure I do, too.  Other people have said I made him too squishy and romantic, or too this or that.  Whatever. In writing a story, you have to take an interpretive point of view, and can't be all things to all readers.  As long as you understand where I got my POV, you don't have to agree with it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

What is my mental version of Loghain exactly?

I do not believe Ferelden has an army even remotely comparable to Rome, primitive as they are (barring perhaps a small elite force). And I can see a number in the army raising an eyebrow at Loghain. Though judging from the nobles who are with him and the fact that he was winning the civil war, I'd say most supported him.

What I dislike is that killing Loghain is utterly inconsequential and that apparently no one gives a ****. But that's Bioware games for you. But I have no "hero worship" for him, I have stated many times that I thought he was politically incompetent and idiotic. If I have hero worship for anyone, it would be to those who are politically competent.

[Addai]

Well for one thing you discount his friendship to Maric- when that's a large part of his character.

There was never a large backing for killing Loghain, as I wrote the Landsmeet. If the Couslands had not supported him, it might have gone through, just because people were tired of fighting and "let's just kill him and be done with it" is the idiot's solution to a difficult problem. And, legally, he was on the hook for a lot of terrible things, so Teagan had the legal backing and probably the Chantry would have supported it too. But Teagan's heart wasn't really in it, Elissa wasn't about to let that happen, and Anora's compromise to make him a Grey Warden was a much better solution.

What Costin is not getting, I think, is that Loghain *lost*. Naturally I could have written it that he actually won, but that was not the plan. Even in the game, Loghain always loses, even if Anora doesn't turn on him. That's just the way the story is written.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai: In my mind the loyalty of the "Gwaren men" and the Royal Army ( Maric's Shield, Cailan's honor guard ) that answered directly to the crown was absolute. And as KoP mentioned he was winning the civil war, hell he had even won it by the Landsmeet.

I do not throw TST in the trash because of Loghain, in fact as others have said, it's the only good thing inside the entire book. Loghain is a guy who would do everything for Fereldan within his power, he is not someone who can act as moderator between the various nobles of Fereldan because he is a radical, but to say he was losing power when by the time of Landsmeet you have to actively work to weaken it is erroneous.

Yes in game he losses, because from a plot point the Warden cannot lose. The "Hero must win" bs.

P.S. Also I do NOT discount the fact that Maric was Loghain's friend. I dislike Maric true but I do believe Loghain genuinely liked him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



What I dislike is that killing Loghain is utterly inconsequential and that apparently no one gives a ****. But that's Bioware games for you. But I have no "hero worship" for him, I have stated many times that I thought he was politically incompetent and idiotic. If I have hero worship for anyone, it would be to those who are politically competent.

Like Bhelen?

Anyways, I agree, there really seemed to be a lack of consequences when there should have been, post Landsmeet, depending on how you chose. I can't see Loghain getting executed, and none of his supporters caring.

But the same thing happened with Alistair. If you send Alistair off to be executed, no one says a damned thing, like, it never happened. Even Eamon doesn't seem to care, and Eamon had been grooming Alistair as his ticket to the throne since the kid was born. Hell, you don't even get a fist bump from Morrigan. Wynne and leliana, who seemed to like Alistair alot, say nothing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Well for one thing you discount his friendship to Maric- when that's a large part of his character.

I don't. I say I do not see what Loghain sees in Maric, which is another character trait in him that makes me believe he does not have a clue what Ferelden needs.

There was never a large backing for killing Loghain, as I wrote the Landsmeet.

In the game, that is not the case, until the Warden reveals things they did not know or do them personal favors.

What Costin is not getting, I think, is that Loghain *lost*. Naturally I could have written it that he actually won, but that was not the plan. Even in the game, Loghain always loses, even if Anora doesn't turn on him. That's just the way the story is written.

Yes, either by vote or by a blunt coup d'etat, neither ultimately matter and the Landsmeet was shown to be a farce. 

What I think Costin heavily dislikes is us being forced to fight him and side with Eamon.
I do not mind that personally, other than the idiotic quest for the urn being poorly justified (the quest itself was fine).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Like Bhelen?

I'd more likely hero worship him, yes.
In fact, out of all DA characters, I'd say Bhelen is the most heroic.

But the same thing happened with Alistair. If you send Alistair off to be executed, no one says a damned thing, like, it never happened. Even Eamon doesn't seem to care, and Eamon had been grooming Alistair as his ticket to the throne since the kid was born. Hell, you don't even get a fist bump from Morrigan. Wynne and leliana, who seemed to like Alistair alot, say nothing.

Indeed. Though I would not expect an outrage for his death, compared to that of Loghain. No one knew him, all nolbes that we hear are skeptical with regards to him...etc.
I would have exected Eamon and Teagan to do something yes (though I believe Eamon is reasonable enough to keep it for later). But I do not believe his execution would cause as much an outrage, at least amongst the troops, than Loghain's.