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[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Addai: In my mind the loyalty of the "Gwaren men" and the Royal Army ( Maric's Shield, Cailan's honor guard ) that answered directly to the crown was absolute. And as KoP mentioned he was winning the civil war, hell he had even won it by the Landsmeet.

That is not the case.  He had had victories in the Bannorn, but by the end of the game the popular opinion was starting to turn against him.  In writing the middle portions, I followed the trajectory of the gossip.  Early on, people are enthused and cheering Loghain's victories.  Then you start to hear- "wow, this kind of sucks" and "is the queen really allowing this?"  Then the same gossips are saying "Loghain hung those hunters at Oswin like dogs" and whispering about overthrowing him.  This is in the game.  I extrapolated from it for dramatic effect, but I didn't make it up.

Yes in game he losses, because from a plot point the Warden cannot lose. The "Hero must win" bs.

That is not the story I wanted to tell.  As I see the story, Loghain actually loses, and not just because of plot constraint.  His failings catch up with him, in particular his blindness, political ineptness, and his overprotectiveness of Anora (and in this story, of his wife and son).  To me that is a more interesting story than "the great man triumphs over all." 

[Costin_Razvan]

That is not the case. He had had victories in the Bannorn, but by the end of the game the popular opinion was starting to turn against him. In writing the middle portions, I followed the trajectory of the gossip. Early on, people are enthused and cheering Loghain's victories. Then you start to hear- "wow, this kind of sucks" and "is the queen really allowing this?" Then the same gossips are saying "Loghain hung those hunters at Oswin like dogs" and whispering about overthrowing him. This is in the game. I extrapolated from it for dramatic effect, but I didn't make it up.

Because the gossips in a tavern possibly paid for by the nobles Loghain is fighting do represent the opinion of the the army? Cauthrien stands aside, but only BARELY and only IF you do not fight her at the estate.

And winning a war has nothing to with popular opinion, not saying a lot of peasants wouldn't start disliking him. I was talking on a strategic level, Loghain beats the living **** out of the Bannorn from the gossips.

That is not the story I wanted to tell. As I see the story, Loghain actually loses, and not just because of plot constraint. His failings catch up with him, in particular his blindness, political ineptness, and his overprotectiveness of Anora (and in this story, of his wife and son). To me that is a more interesting story than "the great man triumphs over all."

And you exaggerated on many fronts did you not?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Indeed. Though I would not expect an outrage for his death, compared to that of Loghain. No one knew him, all nolbes that we hear are skeptical with regards to him...etc.
I would have exected Eamon and Teagan to do something yes (though I believe Eamon is reasonable enough to keep it for later). But I do not believe his execution would cause as much an outrage, at least amongst the troops, than Loghain's.

Oh, amongst the troops? No, I would not expect them to really care, Alistair was an unknown. But amongst some of the nobility? Yes, I would expect some sort of outrage, especially amongst Eamons allies and supporters, and those who still hold the near mystical reverence for the Therin bloodline. Since you killed off the last of Calenhad's line, i would have expected some of the nobles to be pretty outraged.

But mostly, it was the complete lack of reaction from your companions to exiling or executing Alistair that made me go WTF. He wasn't an unknown to them, and they all had certainly formed their own opinions and relationships with him. That none of them would have anything to say is unbelievable. especially Morrigan, leliana, and Wynne.

[Addai]

[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...
Because the gossips in a tavern possibly paid for by the nobles Loghain is fighting do represent the opinion of the the army? Cauthrien stands aside, but only BARELY and only IF you do not fight her at the estate.

And winning a war has nothing to with popular opinion, not saying a lot of peasants wouldn't start disliking him. I was talking on a strategic level, Loghain beats the living **** out of the Bannorn from the gossips.[/quote]
These are the gossips from Orzammar.

He did win victories in the Bannorn- as he also did in my story- but he had not defeated all of them even by the Landsmeet.  Cauthrien is not in question.  She's the definition of a loyal cadre member.  We're talking about the rest of the nobility.  All of them are expressing doubts about Loghain by the end, except for that weasel Ceorlic.

Really Anora was just doing what Anora does- whatever she has to in order to see her throne secure.  We know from the game that she throws Loghain under the bus if she has any doubt on that point, though also tries to save his life.  That's exactly how I wrote it.


[quote][And you exaggerated on many fronts did you not?[/quote][/quote]I'm not going to discuss it any more.  If you don't like the story, that's your prerogative and I'm sorry to have disappointed you.  You can't win 'em all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Skadi
Yea I can see some idiots in Bannorn not liking it at all. but I think most nobles would not care and i do not think they are oblivious to Eamon's ambitions. They might be stupid, but they are not that stupid. .

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

He did win victories in the Bannorn- as he also did in my story- but he had not defeated all of them even by the Landsmeet.  Cauthrien is not in question.  She's the definition of a loyal cadre member.  We're talking about the rest of the nobility.  All of them are expressing doubts about Loghain by the end, except for that weasel Ceorlic.

He was going to beat them. The greatest obstacle he had to face was Redcliffe. And especially since like an idiot, he didn't kill Eamon, the only person who could have mobalized the bannorn with efficiency.

These same nobles express doubt when it comes to Eamon. They are more likely to side with Loghain.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I'm not going to discuss it any more. If you don't like the story, that's your prerogative and I'm sorry to have disappointed you. You can't win 'em all.

I fail to grasp where I said I disliked the story as a whole. I said I disliked how you handled the Landsmeet during it, and I do, but beyond that not really no.

As for the nobles...Knight beat me to a punch.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

He did win victories in the Bannorn- as he also did in my story- but he had not defeated all of them even by the Landsmeet.  Cauthrien is not in question.  She's the definition of a loyal cadre member.  We're talking about the rest of the nobility.  All of them are expressing doubts about Loghain by the end, except for that weasel Ceorlic.

He was going to beat them. The greatest obstacle he had to face was Redcliffe. And especially since like an idiot, he didn't kill Eamon, the only person who could have mobalized the bannorn with efficiency.

These same nobles express doubt when it comes to Eamon. They are more likely to side with Loghain.

We'll have to disagree on this.  They want to side with Anora, not Loghain.  The game story was designed for Loghain to lose.  You can't ever get an outcome where he is not distitled and punished- it's just a matter of how.  If there was an outcome where Loghain got to keep his title and went on as before, then I could agree with this view of things.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I'm not going to discuss it any more. If you don't like the story, that's your prerogative and I'm sorry to have disappointed you. You can't win 'em all.

I fail to grasp where I said I disliked the story as a whole. I said I disliked how you handled the Landsmeet during it, and I do, but beyond that not really no.

As for the nobles...Knight beat me to a punch.

Fair enough.    I'm flattered to provoke any discussion at all.

[Costin_Razvan]

The story was designed for the Warden to be the great big hero, larger then live, who stands against Loghain and wins despite all odds against him and the Blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
We'll have to disagree on this.  They want to side with Anora, not Loghain. 

And yet Anora could speak out against her father and still have the Landsmeet vote for Loghain.

It's exactly how Loghain says it. It's either him or the Warden that the men will follow. Anora and Alistair are cards on the table by that point, nothing more (the former being more important than the latter).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[phaonica]

With all this talk of Loghain being blind, politically inept, overprotective, an idiot, and a failure, I'm finding myself needing to be reminded why anyone likes him.

Modifié par phaonica, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wundoubtedlyrote...

With all this talk of Loghain being blind, politically inept, overprotective, an idiot, and a failure, I'm finding myself needed to be reminded why anyone likes him.

He is undoubtedly a political failure, though the blame lies not only on him. All nobles are stupid and the system itself is irrational. He did not have the political mind (nor ruthlessness) to change it, or alleviate its problems. Or even delay them.

Why do I like Loghain? Because of his love for Ferelden above everything including his own happiness, I find it something worthy of respect. Because he started as a nobody and almost single handedly turned the tide in the war of independence against Orlais. Because he was the first antagonist I thought was, everything considered, reasonable and rational and I could understand his views. Even sympathize.

He felt like a real person, an antognist worthy of respect and sympathy, that's why I love him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:32 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Because he reminds of many Romanian national heroes that I respect. Good people at heart who dearly loved their countries and the people inside them, great military minds but let down nobles and their political ineptitude ( what can I say they had principles as does Loghain, and that got in the way ) .

Vlad the Impaler, Michael the Brave, Stephan the Great, Carol I and minus the whole Holocaust thing ( which sigh will be the only thing people will remember after a while ), Ion Antonescu.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:41 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wundoubtedlyrote...

With all this talk of Loghain being blind, politically inept, overprotective, an idiot, and a failure, I'm finding myself needed to be reminded why anyone likes him.

He is undoubtedly a political failure, though the blame lies not only on him. All nobles are stupid and the system itself is irrational. He did not have the political mind (nor ruthlessness) to change it, or alleviate its problems. Or even delay them.

Why do I like Loghain? Because of his love for Ferelden above everything including his own happiness, I find it something worthy of respect. Because he started as a nobody and almost single handedly turned the tide in the war of independence against Orlais. Because he was the first antagonist I thought was, everything considered, reasonable and rational and I could understand his views. Even sympathize.

He felt like a real person, an antognist worthy of respect and sympathy, that's why I love him.

If he is reasonable and rational, though, how is it that he is also blind, inept, and an idiot?

Do you have a similar respect for what Anders was willing to sacrifice for his cause?

I mean, I can't argue that Loghain failed. I can't really argue why he failed because I myself don't know enough about military or political tactics. But to me, why he failed doesn't matter. If I were to attempt to pinpoint why I like Loghain so much, a lot of it has to do with his strength of resolve in the face of confrontation, sacrifice, and loss, for a cause that I perceive to be a selfless one. Perhaps that perception has severe flaws, but it's the perception that I find the most fun, even if it isn't the most true.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Because he's a sexy bastard who was made for my Love Dungeon.

On a more serious note, I'd go with what KoP said. It was his passion for his homeland, and everything that he lost and suffered to liberate it. But through it all, he still remained a complex human being, filled with passions that he honed with age. He was born a common peasant, yet in my eyes, he is clearly more superior to the nobility that were born into their positions, yet is incredibly down to earth.

Oh, and did I mention he looks great in handcuffs?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
If he is reasonable and rational, though, how is it that he is also blind, inept, and an idiot?

Being reasonable and rational and being intelligent are two different things.
And I say he is politically an idiot. But I do think he is intelligent as a whole.

Do you have a similar respect for what Anders was willing to sacrifice for his cause?

No, it's very different situations. I sympathize with Anders to an extent, but he was very different from Loghain.

 If I were to attempt to pinpoint why I like Loghain so much, a lot of it has to do with his strength of resolve in the face of confrontation, sacrifice, and loss, for a cause that I perceive to be a selfless one.

Same.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
We'll have to disagree on this.  They want to side with Anora, not Loghain. 

And yet Anora could speak out against her father and still have the Landsmeet vote for Loghain.

It's exactly how Loghain says it. It's either him or the Warden that the men will follow. Anora and Alistair are cards on the table by that point, nothing more (the former being more important than the latter).

Uh, wait.  I think we're confusing matters here.  The Landsmeet never votes for Loghain.  They vote for or against the Warden.  Either way, Loghain is disinherited and shunted aside.  Let's not forget that there were always elements in the nobility who mistrusted him and considered him up-jumped.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Uh, wait.  I think we're confusing matters here.  The Landsmeet never votes for Loghain.  They vote for or against the Warden.  Either way, Loghain is disinherited and shunted aside.  Let's not forget that there were always elements in the nobility who mistrusted him and considered him up-jumped.

"I stand by Loghain. Ferelden needs Loghain" Uh what? Of course they vote for Loghain. They vote for him by default, unless the Warden exposes what he did.
The inevitable outcome is irrelevent to what we are discussing.

Those elements of the nobility are a minority and were being crushed.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...
If he is reasonable and rational, though, how is it that he is also blind, inept, and an idiot?

He's not an idiot- did I say that??  However his strengths lie in tactics, not strategy (even though Gaider calls him a strategist, that term implies political finesse so I don't think it quite fits).

He is also not blind, except in key points which prove tragic and disastrous.  Not sure you could argue otherwise.  Gaider has said he fooled himself into thinking he had Howe under control, and he was willfully blind to the threat of the Blight in part out of mistrust of the Wardens, in part because of the witch's prophecy.

I'm not dissing him, I just think his weaknesses make him an even more interesting figure.  If he didn't have them, I doubt we'd still be talking about him.  All in all, he accomplishes a great deal in spite of his failings.  Like Cauthrien says, there wouldn't be a Ferelden without him, and I think that's true in a larger sense than just beating the Orlesians.  Anora's success rests partly on him, for one thing.

If I were to attempt to pinpoint why I like Loghain so much, a lot of it has to do with his strength of resolve in the face of confrontation, sacrifice, and loss, for a cause that I perceive to be a selfless one. Perhaps that perception has severe flaws, but it's the perception that I find the most fun, even if it isn't the most true.

I would say the same, though I think the thing that I find most attractive about him is his deep personal loyalty to those he loves.  I think I see him differently than a lot of people do, who focus on him as a nationalist and a man of duty.  He is that, but as I see it, his sense of duty and country were always personified, first in Maric and then in Anora (and in Ellie, in my story).  His blind spots were because of his love for these people, and the memory of being helpless to save his mother, which made him go into overdrive to save others.  Withdrawing from Ostagar was an impulse to save the country from the Orlesians, for example.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Uh, wait.  I think we're confusing matters here.  The Landsmeet never votes for Loghain.  They vote for or against the Warden.  Either way, Loghain is disinherited and shunted aside.  Let's not forget that there were always elements in the nobility who mistrusted him and considered him up-jumped.

"I stand by Loghain. Ferelden needs Loghain" Uh what? Of course they vote for Loghain. They vote for him by default, unless the Warden exposes what he did.
The inevitable outcome is irrelevent to what we are discussing.

Those elements of the nobility are a minority and were being crushed.

Ok, you're right about the vote.  However, if he had overwhelming support in the chamber, then the free-for-all would not end with him having to fight a duel.  The fact that he loses no matter what IS what we're discussing.  There's no "if he isn't exposed."  He always is.

You're talking about an AU that doesn't exist, not even in my AU.  lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Ok, you're right about the vote.  However, if he had overwhelming support in the chamber, then the free-for-all would not end with him having to fight a duel.  The fact that he loses no matter what IS what we're discussing.  There's no "if he isn't exposed."  He always is.

You're talking about an AU that doesn't exist, not even in my AU.  lol

Eamon and his allies have enough men to make it draw and force negotiations. That has little to do with the vote, he wins it by default which means that most nobles are with him by default, which is what I am discussing, not whether he loses or not (that's what you are discussing with Costin. Yes, we are two different people).

And no, he isn't always exposed. He is always beaten, either by exposing him or by pulling a coup d'etat.

I am not talking about any AU, I am talking about what's in the game. Aka, most nobles are with Loghain by default.
I use that as evidence, coupled with his military victories, that he was winning the civil war. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eamon and his allies have enough men to make it draw and force negotiations.

Right. So...  what are we arguing about?

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Do you have a similar respect for what Anders was willing to sacrifice for his cause?

No, it's very different situations. I sympathize with Anders to an extent, but he was very different from Loghain.

You don't seem interested in elaborating on that, so I won't ask.


As much as it has been said that countless people in both DAO and DA2 are useless and morons, I had started to wonder, if Loghain fit into that group, why he is likeable despite being so.

[Addai]

Loghain is the most interesting, well developed character in both games. There's nobody like him in DA2, unfortunately. Anders probably comes the closest, but was too extreme for my taste. Plus he always has the "Justice made me do it" angle, which makes it impossible to talk about his motives as a matter of human weakness. I think I would have liked the story much better had they left that alone, or made Justice a haunting spirit or something, rather than a co-pilot.