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[billy the squid]

I've only recently started a new game of DAO, the last time I played it was way back last November. I still enjoy the game a lot, but since DA2 was such a letdown and I don't know if DA3 will actually deal with the events of DAO at all, it makes it very frustrating that there doesn't seem to be any continuation from DAO's political situation. I can only hope that DA3 doesn't retcon characters and decisions into oblivion, such as making Leliana being one's mistress, character decisions deaths etc.

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 octobre 2011 - 03:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Knight: Oh the epic debates we had on that...brings back good memories.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The good kind of debate, centered only around efficiency to reach a more or less common goal.

@ Bill
What I have seen of Bioware made me not expect anything decent when it comes to politics. Or broad philosophical questioning (like Deus Ex).
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 octobre 2011 - 04:15 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's what makes him naive and politically stupid.
He was betting that the banns that kill each other for trees are rational. He was betting on the bannorn, that bowed down to the Orlesian invaders without giving a fight, to unite to save a country they care nothing for. He was betting on the same bannorn that he knew made every single Landsmeet after independence a chaotic mess.

No one should bet on these idiots being rational and of being capable of understanding what is happening. They should have been manipulated and their leader killed and not just incapacitated.

That's the difference between Loghain and Bhelen. And why the latter is the great leader while the former is not. Bhelen understands his environment and surroundings and how they work.

You're being very extrapolative and hyperbolic here.  First of all, you make "fighting over trees" sound like nothing, when people even today kill each other over strips of land more barren than that.  Also I think it a bit exaggerated to say that the bannorn did not fight the Orlesians.  Someone did- there was a battle- whether the nobles then accommadated the occupiers or not is a matter of survival over nationalist idealism.  When the Romans occupied a territory, they gave certain people citizenship rights as a way to keep them loyal.  Same deal.  When we see Ferelden in TST, the ones who refused out of nationalist principle have already been strung up and replaced.  And yet those same banns, when they saw a chance to back a winner, did support Maric and Loghain- eventually.

If Loghain had followed the customs of the land, he might have won them over.  Instead he tried to steamroll and he got bitten in the ass for it.  The stupidity was not all on one side.

[Addai]

billy the squid wrote...

I've only recently started a new game of DAO, the last time I played it was way back last November. I still enjoy the game a lot, but since DA2 was such a letdown and I don't know if DA3 will actually deal with the events of DAO at all, it makes it very frustrating that there doesn't seem to be any continuation from DAO's political situation. I can only hope that DA3 doesn't retcon characters and decisions into oblivion, such as making Leliana being one's mistress, character decisions deaths etc.

I wish I could say I cared anymore.

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Bill
What I have seen of Bioware made me not expect anything decent when it comes to politics. Or broad philosophical questioning (like Deus Ex).
 

Yes, well have to see, I'm not expecting much either unless there is a drastic change. But, Tw2 message at the end of dark mode made me smile, expansions as in DLC or actual expansions I don't know, but its always nice to know TW2 has things planned for the future.

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:34 .

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

I've only recently started a new game of DAO, the last time I played it was way back last November. I still enjoy the game a lot, but since DA2 was such a letdown and I don't know if DA3 will actually deal with the events of DAO at all, it makes it very frustrating that there doesn't seem to be any continuation from DAO's political situation. I can only hope that DA3 doesn't retcon characters and decisions into oblivion, such as making Leliana being one's mistress, character decisions deaths etc.

I wish I could say I cared anymore.

I haven't touched DA2 since it first came out, I just don't care about it. And whilst DAO is still entertaining I only play it intermitently when I have little else to do, frankly I wouldn't hold my breath for DA3 fixing or dealing with such endings effectively. I remain largely disinterested in the Dragon Age IP's ability for future instalments, the same with Mass Effect, I might see what happens, but my feelings can generally be summed up as "meh" unless something catches my attention.

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 octobre 2011 - 06:30 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You're being very extrapolative and hyperbolic here. First of all, you make "fighting over trees" sound like nothing, when people even today kill each other over strips of land more barren than that.

And they are more intelligent because of the Bannorn due to what? Just because a ton of people commit suicide doesn't make it less idiotic for another person to do the same. Just because a lot of people steal doesn't make ok for anyone to steal. Just because a lot of people commit murders doesn't make it OK for someone else to murder.

I can go on about this, but you get my point.

Tell me exactly why you defend the Bannorn? Just because they stand against Loghain? Especially since you dislike politics and thus I guess politicians especially poor ones. Tell me how the **** does the Fereldan system WORK for the betterment of the country and it's people since you say you know politics.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote... First of all, you make "fighting over trees" sound like nothing, when people even today kill each other over strips of land more barren than that.

It is nothing when we are talking about some banns owning a few acres of land. When compared to national interests.

The fact that people do it, doesn't make it any less irrational. Furthermore, difference between the international arena that by definition is anarchic, and between a domestic setting where it's not supposed to be anarchic. The fact that Ferelden has inner strife of this magnitude and banality, points to a system bordering on anarchy, with little to no public enforcement. That is not a rational system and certainly not a system capable of defending and promoting its interests against other states, as we have seen (except you don't think 90 years of occupation are a sign of defeat).

Also I think it a bit exaggerated to say that the bannorn did not fight the Orlesians.  Someone did- there was a battle- whether the nobles then accommadated the occupiers or not is a matter of survival over nationalist idealism.  When the Romans occupied a territory, they gave certain people citizenship rights as a way to keep them loyal.  Same deal.  When we see Ferelden in TST, the ones who refused out of nationalist principle have already been strung up and replaced.  And yet those same banns, when they saw a chance to back a winner, did support Maric and Loghain- eventually.

After what? After Loghain murdered one for defecting. You forget that.
And especially after the Orlesians were playing dumb. That is the biggest reason why they failed. Were they not stupid. Were they led by Celene, then Maric and Loghain would have had no chance at all. Ferelden would have continued to be an imperial province and backwater.

Also, Ferelden banns are not given any rights, their landsmeet was banned and I very much doubt they would be represented in the Imperial court. It's far more likely that the Orlesians, initially, delt with banns individually and struck seperate deals and made sure they were not negotiating with a united bloc. The banns in their idiocy would be very easy targets for diplomatic isolation. 

That is what makes Ferelden and the system that you defend, weak.

If Loghain had followed the customs of the land, he might have won them over.  Instead he tried to steamroll and he got bitten in the ass for it.  The stupidity was not all on one side.

Of course, Loghain was stupid, for thinking that the banns were not stupid enough as to oppose him. So he overreacted when the reality did not meet the expectation (Henry Leland quote).

Yes, part of manipulating the bannorn is making it look like you are following the customs of the land, when in reality you are not. Loghain overlooked the critical importance of image. And as Augustus showed us, one could make an absolute ruler of an empire look like a republican humble figure who constantly rejects popular wishes to be appointed dictator for life. That's political manipulation that was required.

The irony is that on the one front where he should have gone all in, aka killing Eamon, he didn't. And because of that sense of honor or whatever it is that clouded his judgment, he was forced to kill many more people.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Cobwebmaster]

Addai67. Interesting concept about there being no Cousland's around as far as anybody knew, and even more so when you couple that comment with the fact that Howe did not commit any of his forces at Osatagar especially when his leige lord had already committed his by sending Fergus ahead. Howe in not supprting the King's command had already revealed his hand and was a traitor yet he still was allowed to take the Terynir AND another Arling? Loghain was backing himself into a corner all the time and showed little talent for either tactics political maturity or strategy. Are we expected to believe that Loghain would simply take Howe (a renowned snake and a liar) at his word following his undoubted claim that the Couslands were dead at his hand. What about all the Cousland Banns? No mention was made of them. As for whether I have played the human noble origin I have done so many times, and if memory serves it is Howe that refers to Bryce as "Old Friend" not the other way around though obviously as the teryn's appointed Arl he was in a trusted position.

Of course following David Gaider's work with great enthusiasm is something I have been doing for years since the excellent Baldur's Gate 1, 2, and Throne of Bhaal, but even writers will only refer back to what they have written, not what they have not. To be frank I am a little peeved that I wasn't allowed to romance a gorgeous elven hottie (heterosexual relationship) as David got fed up with writing romances for them (for which I can't really blame him) but D A is a whole different immersive ball game

I agree with billy the squid Alastair represented a figurehead for the traditional conservative viewpoint and the repression of any forward progress for Ferelden. The Cousland's were likely a better bet and Anora felt deep respect for the competence of The Grey Warden (assuming the human noble survived the battle with the Archdemon). She certainly has to stay in powerful position even if only as an intermediary. With the Wardens being potentially impotent (unless magic is involved?) a line of succession was doubtful but the strength and depth of the Cousland family would have provided some heirs. Being King Consort and running Amaranthine is a bit of a loss for the Cousland family, as it's Arling was part of their estates and satrapy originally , but at least there is some compensation. The big question is of course whether the Grey warden's neutrality would ever be compromised by the conflict of interest between maintaining their focus on the long term objective for the remaining 2 Archdemons and becoming part of the political process of Ferelden. Ferelden's political chaos based around their feudal system has already had one instance of Grey Warden's getting involved in politics and that didn't turn out very well. Assuming that you had the Soldier's Keep dlc I wonder why Amaranthine should ever be put on the table as a carrot for the Wardens. They certainly didn't need it and all the complications of managing an estate which was now tied directly into the Crown's estates. Besides geographically Amaranthine is too far north and east to be positioned strategically for quick troop deployment anywhere within Ferelden. It doesn't really guard anything apart from maybe an approach to the Waking Sea and I don't think that Darkspawn have learnt to swim yet! Somewhere a bit more central would seem more appropriate

Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 03 octobre 2011 - 01:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
It could've been that easy for Loghain. Just bump off Cailan and become consigliare to a more pliable king.

Interesting. That might have worked as well, though I still believe that Eamon, with his capacity to unite the bannorn, would remain a threat.

But I most certainly agree that Cailan should have been eliminated long before the battle. I would have felt safer personally if Eamon is eliminated as well.

Alistair deeply respects Eamon, and this is evident when he freaks out if you kill his wife or child. It's self-centered, as in he is afraid of what Eamon would think of him, but that also shows that he is very adamant about what Eamon thinks of him.  

[Addai]

Cobwebmaster wrote...

Addai67. Interesting concept about there being no Cousland's around as far as anybody knew, and even more so when you couple that comment with the fact that Howe did not commit any of his forces at Osatagar especially when his leige lord had already committed his by sending Fergus ahead. Howe in not supprting the King's command had already revealed his hand and was a traitor yet he still was allowed to take the Terynir AND another Arling? Loghain was backing himself into a corner all the time and showed little talent for either tactics political maturity or strategy. Are we expected to believe that Loghain would simply take Howe (a renowned snake and a liar) at his word following his undoubted claim that the Couslands were dead at his hand. What about all the Cousland Banns? No mention was made of them.

Well yes, what about them?  They apparently accepted Howe's leadership with little resistance, at least until the end of the game when we hear about a riot in Highever.  I don't think Loghain's acceptance of Howe was motivated by anything but pragmatism.  He had no reason to pick the losing dog in a Cousland-Howe fight when it's already dead.

Fergus had been out scouting before the battle, as far as we know the Highever forces at Ostagar were demolished, and if there's a Cousland Warden, that person is dead and/or outlawed as far as Loghain is concerned.  There's no advantage for him in supporting a losing cause like the Cousland family revenge.

As for whether I have played the human noble origin I have done so many times, and if memory serves it is Howe that refers to Bryce as "Old Friend" not the other way around though obviously as the teryn's appointed Arl he was in a trusted position.

Well obviously Howe wasn't actually his friend.  I mean that no one outside their inner circle could possibly have seen anything amiss between them, if Bryce himself didn't know.  And again, why should Loghain even care?  Once Fergus/ Elissa shows up with an army, that changes the game, but until then it's just brutal feudal politics as usual.

I agree with billy the squid Alastair represented a figurehead for the traditional conservative viewpoint and the repression of any forward progress for Ferelden.

It depends on what you consider progress.  He seems more in touch with the elves and common people than Anora.

The Cousland's were likely a better bet and Anora felt deep respect for the competence of The Grey Warden (assuming the human noble survived the battle with the Archdemon). She certainly has to stay in powerful position even if only as an intermediary. With the Wardens being potentially impotent (unless magic is involved?) a line of succession was doubtful but the strength and depth of the Cousland family would have provided some heirs.

Well first of all you're assuming the Warden is a Cousland male.  Secondly, I don't buy into the Warden-centered universe.  The Couslands certainly had clout in Fereldan politics, but a young, green member of the family who's been conscripted into a shady foreign order after the family was publicly discredited as Orlesian spies, and who has been run out of his teyrnir- some nobles like Alfstanna are going to stand up for his cause, but others aren't going to stick their necks out.  How you deal with Anora determines whether she considers the Warden a political plus or minus.  It's not a given.

Assuming that you had the Soldier's Keep dlc I wonder why Amaranthine should ever be put on the table as a carrot for the Wardens. They certainly didn't need it and all the complications of managing an estate which was now tied directly into the Crown's estates. Besides geographically Amaranthine is too far north and east to be positioned strategically for quick troop deployment anywhere within Ferelden. It doesn't really guard anything apart from maybe an approach to the Waking Sea and I don't think that Darkspawn have learnt to swim yet! Somewhere a bit more central would seem more appropriate

I certainly agree that giving Amaranthine to the Wardens is not a good move.  My Cousland character was not happy about it at all.  As for its strategic position, well it's not central but it does have a port and a strong keep.  Anyway, if you're Weisshaupt and someone is giving you such a prize, you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:46 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The fact that people do it, doesn't make it any less irrational. Furthermore, difference between the international arena that by definition is anarchic, and between a domestic setting where it's not supposed to be anarchic. The fact that Ferelden has inner strife of this magnitude and banality, points to a system bordering on anarchy, with little to no public enforcement. That is not a rational system and certainly not a system capable of defending and promoting its interests against other states, as we have seen (except you don't think 90 years of occupation are a sign of defeat).

Don't be ridiculous.  Of course it's a defeat.  I'm pointing out that you talk about "apple trees" as if it's a playground squabble over milk, when territory rights is what most wars have ever been fought about.  Of course no one cares about other people's disputes, if it's not their problem.

After what? After Loghain murdered one for defecting. You forget that.

And they also murdered Ceorlic and Co. in the Chantry.  No, I haven't forgotten.

That is what makes Ferelden and the system that you defend, weak.

I'm willing to talk about its weaknesses if you're willing to talk about its strengths- which you never do.  Certainly an authoritarian government has advantages.  It's also highly dependent on one or two individuals, succession and the like.  See, War of the Roses.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:42 .

[Bleachrude]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A major reason why I do not want Alistair on the throne, he is the least likely to change the status quo. He lacks vision, at least on a macro level.

Er, wouldn't this be Anora?

Anora, while opposed by the "monarchists" is never mentioned as being "visionary". She's itronically a traditionalist IMO since I never seen her presented as anything other than a good "administrator". Anora, has been insulated for her entire life and while Eamon certainly doesn't consider her a noble (wouldn't Celia have been one? - do we know anything about her other than her name) she certainly has been brought UP as a noble all her life. 

It's why I always thought Anora and Alistair together would be the best since Alistair does have vision and ironically, actual non-noble life experience...He's walked the alienages (-and actually gives the city elves a place on his council whereas Anora simply lifts some restrictions) , dealt with the hypocrisy of the Chantry (it's why I don't think it's weird that in DA2 you meet him confronting Meredith with regard to escaped mages), pretty much seen/waled the entirety of Ferelden as a "normal" guy dealing with all types of Fereldens and even non Fereldens like the Dalish and Dwarves whereas everything I've seen written for Anora indicates she has been brought up from since Cailan's birth on the idea that she would be queen.

Anora has the knowledge to best help him accomplish those goals but I really don't see Anora actually striving to change anything....indeed, why would Anora actually be willing to change things now when even before in the previous 5 years, we see no indication about Anora striving for change (and this is with Cailan who gave her free reign)

[Mike3207]

Bleachrude wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A major reason why I do not want Alistair on the throne, he is the least likely to change the status quo. He lacks vision, at least on a macro level.

Er, wouldn't this be Anora?

Anora, while opposed by the "monarchists" is never mentioned as being "visionary". She's itronically a traditionalist IMO since I never seen her presented as anything other than a good "administrator". Anora, has been insulated for her entire life and while Eamon certainly doesn't consider her a noble (wouldn't Celia have been one? - do we know anything about her other than her name) she certainly has been brought UP as a noble all her life. 

It's why I always thought Anora and Alistair together would be the best since Alistair does have vision and ironically, actual non-noble life experience...He's walked the alienages (-and actually gives the city elves a place on his council whereas Anora simply lifts some restrictions) , dealt with the hypocrisy of the Chantry (it's why I don't think it's weird that in DA2 you meet him confronting Meredith with regard to escaped mages), pretty much seen/waled the entirety of Ferelden as a "normal" guy dealing with all types of Fereldens and even non Fereldens like the Dalish and Dwarves whereas everything I've seen written for Anora indicates she has been brought up from since Cailan's birth on the idea that she would be queen.

Anora has the knowledge to best help him accomplish those goals but I really don't see Anora actually striving to change anything....indeed, why would Anora actually be willing to change things now when even before in the previous 5 years, we see no indication about Anora striving for change (and this is with Cailan who gave her free reign)

Not at all. If Anora had been for the status quo, she and Eamon would have been political allies instead of the rivals they obviously were. She makes an atempt to free the mages if a Mage Warden does the US, a very big change. It's why I believe the banns turn to Eamon in WH(although I haven't played it yet); they're looking for someone to stop the changes Anora and her potential husband are seeking to make.

[Bleachrude]

Again I disagree...

Alistair also tries to free the mages if a mage Warden does the US but even if the warden wasn't a mage we see in DAII that he was harboring mage refugees.

I don't see Anora doing this because quite frankly, she doesn't have the inner knowledge about templars/ the chantry and mages. Sure Loghain probably taught her "don't trust the chantry" but he most likely also taught her "don't trust the mages either - remember in the novels, I don't think we meet a non villainous mage UNTIL Fiona herself). The wrost that can be a said about the chantry was that they didn't oppose the occupaton whereas the mages we meet are pretty much Orlesian agitators/supporters. Contrast this with Alistair who ) knows that the chantry pretty much is lying and is twisting their templars and actually understands the pros and cons of the circle system

Keep in mind that I think people are automatically equating Anora as a non-traditionalist since she's opposed by Eamon, a monarchist, but that I think is a fallacy...people automatically assume she's a non-traditionalist but there's nothing indicating in-game of her actions before the epilogue that Anora was trying to rock the boat and the epilogue with non-traditional actions occur only if the warden was of that certain demographic.

To put it bluntly, I see both Eamon and Anora fitting under the same "tent/party" but Eamon simply in one of the various inner-cligues that make up the club (basically think venn diagram with Monarchist firmly inside the traditionalist camp) It's similar to how right now, both Gov Christie, Mitt Romney and Perry are considered too liberal by many elements of their own party (apologies to non American readers for the american examples) and dont' seem likely to win the Republican primaries... .

more importantly, why wouldn't Anora be a traditionalist? How much interaction did Anora have with non-nobles? Loghain raised her from birth with the "you will be queen" and I imagine this means "raised with the nobility"

The best ending is probably alsitair hardened with Loghain making the killing blow and dying since without Loghain, Alistair feels confident enough NOT to have Eamon as a chancellor and/or is persuaded by Anora (I think a lot of people forget that Eamon doesnt automatically become chancellor if Alistair is king - in most scenariios with alistair as king, yes, but not all ) I imagine that with Loghain alive, alistair feels he needs to have Eamon on his side as he assumes Loghain will automatically be supporting Anora....

As well, those arguing for a weakening of the bannorn system, you kind of making Eamon's arguments for him for Anora to step down/be put aside. With a strengthened monarchy, it becomes even more important than succession is clear and a marriage where the queen hasn't born a child for 5 years and is approaching her 30s is just looking for trouble...

Hell, I think even Loghain, if he was honest with himself, would agree that not having a heir is a bad thing..Addai67 has the right of it with the disadvantages of a more autocratic style government...

Modifié par Bleachrude, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:24 .

[Cobwebmaster]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...
[quote]
Well yes, what about them?  They apparently accepted Howe's leadership with little resistance, at least until the end of the game when we hear about a riot in Highever.  I don't think Loghain's acceptance of Howe was motivated by anything but pragmatism.  He had no reason to pick the losing dog in a Cousland-Howe fight when it's already dead.

Fergus had been out scouting before the battle, as far as we know the Highever forces at Ostagar were demolished, and if there's a Cousland Warden, that person is dead and/or outlawed as far as Loghain is concerned.  There's no advantage for him in supporting a losing cause like the Cousland family revenge.
[/quote]

I think it reasonable to assume that if Fergus was part of the attacking defensive force with Cailan and Duncan he as the heir apparent to one of only 2 terynirs would have featured in the cutscene- but no Cousland shileds were observed at all. Ergo he was not present, besides Cailan refers to this during his conversation with the PC and Duncan (human noble story). We might assume that he and all his banns (apart from Howe) would have travelled north to re take Highever- indeed with all the mercenaries that Howe was hiring it is possible that his own forces were severely stretched in trying to hang on to his new "acquisitions". Stating that the Banns (who I repeat would have all marched off with their leige lord's eldest son) accepted Howe's leadership passively is for me a massive leap of faith,. Personally playng a human noble I would have bunked off the Warden thing and found Fergus. It seems extraordinary that Alastair the dumb gray warden could find his half sister in the short time available to him and yet the younger son of one of the three most powerful nobles in the kingdom, makes no effort to find or get in  touch with his brother. On the other hand had I undertaken the joining and survived my tactics would have had to be developed around the likelihood that Ferelden would be destroyed by the blight following the Ostagar rout
[/quote]



[quote]seen anything amiss between them, if Bryce himself didn't know.  And again, why should Loghain even care?  Once Fergus/ Elissa shows up with an army, that changes the game, but until then it's just brutal feudal politics as usual.[/quote]
The unknown whereabouts and fate of Fergus and the HIghever forces is far too big a potential variable to success to be ignored. Anyone making decisions without that knowledge has to be something of a dumb ass and while Howe comes across as a greedy grasping slimeball, Loghain has that calculating and clever look about him - besides your average moron does not usually end up as being a teryn

[quote]
Well first of all you're assuming the Warden is a Cousland male.  Secondly, I don't buy into the Warden-centered universe.  The Couslands certainly had clout in Fereldan politics, but a young, green member of the family who's been conscripted into a shady foreign order after the family was publicly discredited as Orlesian spies, and who has been run out of his teyrnir- some nobles like Alfstanna are going to stand up for his cause, but others aren't going to stick their necks out.  How you deal with Anora determines whether she considers the Warden a political plus or minus.  It's not a given. [/quote]

The point regarding gender his well made, however family publicly discredited as Orlesian spies? An odd accusation from anyone especially Howe who's father was until the odds turned against him an Orlesian lickspittle himself. Looking at the Grey Wardens as a shady foreign order when it's recruits were all Ferelden's is a bit much even for Ferelden political imbeciles, but crude is maybe sometimes effective even though the accusation is so thin it is almost transparent and any Ferelden noble with an IQ above that of a quill would be able to see through that immediately. As for Bann Alfstanna she was one of Cousland's banns anyway. More interesting is maybe the Dragon's Peak and southern Banns and Arls Wulff and Bryland who were likely part of Mac Tir's entourage. Another nail in Loghain's competence as a commander that his own southern ferelden fiefdoms were the ones first hit by the Darkspawn while in the North Highever's terynir was virtually unscathed at that time. As regards Anora well a Male Cousland PC can woo her (mine has) so can a female cousland pay court to her as a political ally. Having gotten her testimony at the landsmeet it's pretty much open as to how she ends up, but logically and politically she needs to be supported if you want a united Ferelden. The way I see it the task can be done with or without  Alastair as King, but it is important to have Anora's competence featuring strongly. In terms of a Cousland male political opportunism to take the throne couldn't have been gift wrapped any better. Grey Wardens have a limited life span, but others are waiting in the wings


[/quote]

Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 03 octobre 2011 - 08:58 .

[Addai]

Cobwebmaster wrote...
I think it reasonable to assume that if Fergus was part of the attacking defensive force with Cailan and Duncan he as the heir apparent to one of only 2 terynirs would have featured in the cutscene- but no Cousland shileds were observed at all. Ergo he was not present, besides Cailan refers to this during his conversation with the PC and Duncan (human noble story). We might assume that he and all his banns (apart from Howe) would have travelled north to re take Highever-

Wait, what?  Fergus is in a shack in the Korcari Wilds during the entire Blight.  No one is marching on Highever.

I don't recall seeing any coats of arms in the Ostagar cutscene.

indeed with all the mercenaries that Howe was hiring it is possible that his own forces were severely stretched in trying to hang on to his new "acquisitions".

The only evidence of that is the riot in Highever that you hear about late in the game, when there are other riots in Ferelden too.

Stating that the Banns (who I repeat would have all marched off with their leige lord's eldest son) accepted Howe's leadership passively is for me a massive leap of faith,.

Just going by what you see in the game.  There's no sign of anyone even raising an eyebrow over the Couslands.  I'm sure they did, privately, but by then it was all fait accompli.

The point regarding gender his well made, however family publicly discredited as Orlesian spies?

I assume that was Howe's contention.  When you confront him, he talks about the family's trips to Orlais.  How else was he going to make his takeover stick?
 

An odd accusation from anyone especially Howe who's father was until the odds turned against him an Orlesian lickspittle himself.

Again, it was Rendon who turned the arling over to the rebels and saw his own father hung.  If that doesn't absolve him of collaboration, I don't know what does.

Looking at the Grey Wardens as a shady foreign order when it's recruits were all Ferelden's is a bit much even for Ferelden political imbeciles, but crude is maybe sometimes effective even though the accusation is so thin it is almost transparent and any Ferelden noble with an IQ above that of a quill would be able to see through that immediately.

Two centuries before, the Wardens were kicked out for trying to overturn Ferelden's crown.  Duncan is from Val Royeux, though he says he's from Highever- I assume that's a birthplace.  The Wardens' status is still very tenuous in Ferelden, as Duncan will tell you in several of the origins.  They relied on Maric's and then Cailan's patronage and didn't have many recruits.

As for Bann Alfstanna she was one of Cousland's banns anyway.

Not sure where you're getting that.  I don't see it in her codex entry, for instance.  If she owed fealty, she wouldn't have offered bowmen as if it was something she was volunteering.  In fact until you mention her brother, she's not very interested in you.  Hardly bending the knee.
 

More interesting is maybe the Dragon's Peak and southern Banns and Arls Wulff and Bryland who were likely part of Mac Tir's entourage. Another nail in Loghain's competence as a commander that his own southern ferelden fiefdoms were the ones first hit by the Darkspawn while in the North Highever's terynir was virtually unscathed at that time.

I think you have a more dynastic view of teyrns than is warranted.  When you ask Loghain about his teyrnir, the dialogue implies that it's tiny and mostly barren.  He had national influence because he was a royal advisor. 

The way I see it the task can be done with or without  Alastair as King, but it is important to have Anora's competence featuring strongly. In terms of a Cousland male political opportunism to take the throne couldn't have been gift wrapped any better. Grey Wardens have a limited life span, but others are waiting in the wings

Ferelden ends up pretty much the same no matter who you choose as ruler.  KoP will argue that Anora puts it on a different trajectory than Alistair, but that's speculation.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ferelden ends up pretty much the same no matter who you choose as ruler. KoP will argue that Anora puts it on a different trajectory than Alistair, but that's speculation.

I think what KoP is arguing is that Anora manages to make changes that can have a more lasting impact then what Alistair can: Education and economy ( through the University, trade and increased farming output ).

Civil Rights are all good and all but no matter what Alistair does elves will still be second class citizens and his actions might even lead to increased friction between the elves and the Dalish that settle at Ostagar.

Again, it was Rendon who turned the arling over to the rebels and saw his own father hung. If that doesn't absolve him of collaboration, I don't know what does.

A side note if I may. But what do you suppose happened to Rendon's cousins and aunt ( his uncle, who's name I forget, that fought and died for Maric did have heirs and close family who he sent away in the Free Marches )?

I personally imagine the Orlesians tracked them down and killed them then installed Rendon's uncle as a puppet Arl. I also would speculate that it might have been then Couslands who attacked the arling to take Harper's Ford as as show of their declaration of support for Maric and to take the land as their own ofc.

I also speculate that it might have been the Couslands who murdered Rendon's cousins and aunt. I mean the Amaranthine is a vassal to Highever and I bet Meghren would have been quite furios at Cousland's failure to keep his arl in check.

[Bleachrude]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ferelden ends up pretty much the same no matter who you choose as ruler. KoP will argue that Anora puts it on a different trajectory than Alistair, but that's speculation.

I think what KoP is arguing is that Anora manages to make changes that can have a more lasting impact then what Alistair can: Education and economy ( through the University, trade and increased farming output ).

Civil Rights are all good and all but no matter what Alistair does elves will still be second class citizens and his actions might even lead to increased friction between the elves and the Dalish that settle at Ostagar.

There's only 1 scenario/slide where it is mentioned that there is "increased trade" is when Anora marries a Cousland....other than that. the slides only make mention of Anora being a skilled governnor...

Are you mixing up Celene and Anora because the entry on *Celene* talks about how Orlais is undergoing an rennassaince with a university and debates in Val Royeaux itself where Chantry doctrine is being challenged and makes the Chantry uncomfortable and Celene more interested in the economic well being of Orlais than its military might... 

As well, how is alistair's 1st steps to giving the elves and mages more rights/support NOT going to be long-lasting? I think you're really underestimating how much of a  society changer that would be...

EDIT : Why is it that Eamon is considered the biggest threat? Isn't it Teagan who first opposes Loghain and when the civil war is raging, isn't Eamon STILL unconscious? I mean, it is actually possible to do all the treaties BEFORE you actually do the Sacred Ashes questline...more often than not, doesn't Eamon abdicate his arling to Teagan yet the slides always indicate that the arling of Redcliffe becomes a "center" of power in Ferelden?

Really..shouldn't it be Teagan thatmost here should direct their ire towwards?

I still believe personally that Loghain himself would actually agree that Anora would need to step down if no heir was on the horizon...sure Eamon might be the most visible one but even the non-monarchists are probably getting antry with no heir as this means the bannorn needs to start looking around for another heir and all the trouble that entails...

Modifié par Bleachrude, 04 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...
Don't be ridiculous.  Of course it's a defeat.  I'm pointing out that you talk about "apple trees" as if it's a playground squabble over milk, when territory rights is what most wars have ever been fought about.  Of course no one cares about other people's disputes, if it's not their problem.[/quote]


Territory rights and a few trees to add to an overglorified farm are different matters.

[quote]
After what? After Loghain murdered one for defecting. You forget that. [/quote]And they also murdered Ceorlic and Co. in the Chantry.  No, I haven't forgotten.[/quote]


How is that respecting customs then? That's transgressing a thousand rules right there.

[quote]
[quote]That is what makes Ferelden and the system that you defend, weak. [/quote]I'm willing to talk about its weaknesses if you're willing to talk about its strengths- which you never do.  Certainly an authoritarian government has advantages.  It's also highly dependent on one or two individuals, succession and the like.  See, War of the Roses.[/quote]

Not talking about authoritarian regimes, but a centralized system.
I see some strengths, like the *concept* of checks and balances, no divine right absolutist monarchy, some flexibility. But the weaknesses far outweigh them.

@ Bleach.
As Costin said, it's the university and increased trade that I am talking about. And no, they show up irrespective of who the Warden is and if he married Anora or not. Anora's solo rule leads to the building of a unviersity, laws to encourage freeholders and increased trade.

That is infinitely more important to me and more visionary than the fate of elves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2011 - 12:19 .