Ah, feh. That is Renaissance spin. The English knew nothing of Athens when they were evolving their charters. It came from their own traditions. Although I agree with you that modern democracy is not all that. I thought that should be obvious from my posts.Costin_Razvan wrote...
I think the perennial difference we keep coming around to is that I see feudalism as nascent democracy. The roots of European democracy are in the rights of land owners to check the king, and his limited right to call them to account.
The roots of European democracy lie in Athens, with the impact of Greek Culture upon the Romans and then the impact of Rome on the rest of the world. The impacts of Greece and Rome survives to this day.
I however fail to see why democracy is such an awesome system by itself. It's a system, it's not good or bad just because it exists. It has it's flaws and good points.
Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age
Débuté par
Irish Guerrilla
, août 15 2010 05:21
#11426
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 08:05
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
Retour en haut
#11427
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 08:36
Costin_Razvan
-
- Members
- 7 010 messages
Ah, feh. That is Renaissance spin.
Machiavelli says it all really.
The English knew nothing of Athens when they were evolving their charters.
The English didn't really create a fully democratic system until much much later after the Magna Carta was signed and let's face it the English Parliment was created due to a bunch of nobles very pissed at the crown.
Did it end up as being a good thing for England? Sure, after decades of civil wars and civil strife in country and centuries after it was created, so I'm not sure if it's the kind of system I would support in it's creation.
P.S. How far you in TW2?
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2011 - 08:43 .
#11428
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 09:18
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Addai67 wrote...
Where do you think trees grow? lol This is food we're talking about- and land. These are not small issues.
They are, when we are talking about overglorified land owners supposedely being part of the same kingdom.
If they really have to keep fighting each other for something as basic as food, well then I really don't need to explain myself here.
I think the perennial difference we keep coming around to is that I see feudalism as nascent democracy. The roots of European democracy are in the rights of land owners to check the king, and his limited right to call them to account.
That would not be completely accurate. France had as much if not more influence in defining European democracy than England, and French democracy only rose *after* Richelieu, Mazarin and Louis XIV all but destroyed the aristocracy as a *political* elite. That's what Alexis de Tocqueville argued. That the French revolution was a natural continuation of the absolutist monarchy, in that it centralized power more and removed an obsolete class.
I like the fact that the king is accountable to the people. The differencce is, you want them to be represented by nobles simply for having an army, while I would remove them as buffers completely and allow commoners to elect their own representatives, with no such titles as "nobles". I want a rise of the middle class that is politically active and doesn't need a buffer.
So ultimately I think I am being more democratic than you. Not that I particularly care about being so, I simply believe in empowering the middle class. You think that the banns are middle class land owners when they are not. They own a fort, an army and they represent the freeholders in exchange for protection. They are a buffer between landowners and the crown. An unnecessary buffer that have long outlived their usefulness.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:22 .
#11429
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 09:26
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Costin_Razvan wrote...
The English knew nothing of Athens when they were evolving their charters.
The English didn't really create a fully democratic system until much much later after the Magna Carta was signed and let's face it the English Parliment was created due to a bunch of nobles very pissed at the crown.
I'd say England started the road towards modern democracy in 1688, But that's the commoner middle class taking power and weakening the nobility.
I am starting to think that Addai believes that the banns are commoner middle class people, when they are not.
#11430
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 09:38
Cobwebmaster
-
- Members
- 301 messages
[quote]Addai67 wrote...
[quote]
indeed with all the mercenaries that Howe was hiring it is possible that his own forces were severely stretched in trying to hang on to his new "acquisitions". [/quote]The only evidence of that is the riot in Highever that you hear about late in the game, when there are other riots in Ferelden too.
[quote]An odd accusation from anyone especially Howe who's father was until the odds turned against him an Orlesian lickspittle himself. [/quote]Again, it was Rendon who turned the arling over to the rebels and saw his own father hung. If that doesn't absolve him of collaboration, I don't know what does.
What it does prove is that he cannot be trusted. Anyone who betrays his own kin for personal gain scores points over even a scorpion
[quote]Looking at the Grey Wardens as a shady foreign order when it's recruits were all Ferelden's is a bit much even for Ferelden political imbeciles, but crude is maybe sometimes effective even though the accusation is so thin it is almost transparent and any Ferelden noble with an IQ above that of a quill would be able to see through that immediately. [/quote]Two centuries before, the Wardens were kicked out for trying to overturn Ferelden's crown. Duncan is from Val Royeux, though he says he's from Highever- I assume that's a birthplace. The Wardens' status is still very tenuous in Ferelden, as Duncan will tell you in several of the origins. They relied on Maric's and then Cailan's patronage and didn't have many recruits.
[quote]
I've not disputed that. Commander Dryden was thrown into the wardens as she was seen as a contender to the throne by Arland. The alternative to that was execution. Dryden used her position as commander to support a rebellion. The wardens lax in enforcing their neutrality and focus deserved everything they got in my view, but the mistake was that it was Dryden that was the problem. The wardens were simply a vehicle for her to achieve her ends. The Ferelden kings had the right of it in those days the wardens WERE freeloaders and not doing their job properly. Duncan knew his fight was doomed to failure but he fought anyway why? because that's what Grey Warden's do - fight the darkspawn - either in the open or the Deep Roadsd -at least that's what I understand about this legend [/quote]
[quote]As for Bann Alfstanna she was one of Cousland's banns anyway.[/quote]Not sure where you're getting that. I don't see it in her codex entry, for instance. If she owed fealty, she wouldn't have offered bowmen as if it was something she was volunteering. In fact until you mention her brother, she's not very interested in you. Hardly bending the knee.
[quote]Try looking at Bann Ulfstanna's area of control - Waking Sea is in the North unless I am mistaken. Another thing that politics has taught me offer help to your leige lord (or his heirs) before he demands it. That way you advance in his standing and secure your own future[/quote]
I think you have a more dynastic view of teyrns than is warranted. When you ask Loghain about his teyrnir, the dialogue implies that it's tiny and mostly barren. He had national influence because he was a royal advisor.
The structure of Ferelden is not terribly complicated . With a large number of Terynirs disposed of there remain outside the isolated and curiously unpopulated royal family only two major noble houses. With the Cousland's out of the way the bannorns are all up for grabs. As far as I can make out most of them were either in Central Ferelden or in the North and under Cousland influence or at least passively friendly. A big move for Howe who obviously had eyes on the throne if one was to accept your reasoning. Either way Loghain's future was very bleak and his self confessed influence due to his rep and relationship to the throne is probably an honest one. Ferelden's basic problem was it's lack of a strong king. Alastair was not a good replacement but a sentimental one only. Loghain had no statesman like abilities and for all his so called standing was nothing more than a hard headed warrior and commoner who was promoted outside the military beyond his abilities. Nothing deep about the man he was simply a warrior and fighter who was trying to apply the brakes on a vehicle which was careering out of control having hit an oil slick. Loghain knew he did not have the background or skills to compete on equal terms with most of Ferelden's nobility and his move to regency in my view was an act of desperation as it suddenly dawned on him that his country was about to go up in flames. In his limited way and looking around him he (in the absence of the Cousland's) could see no alternative, but to do what he did. Howe with all his treachery might in that light seem a better bet for Ferelden than anybody else, assuming that any other noble estates survived his ambitions. Loghain gives testimony to his greatest fears and relief at the end of the duel following the landsmeet. All he was doing was trying to find a strong leader to untie and save his country. Self interest of the Banns Arls and Teryns prevented that from happening
In terms of your other arguments I do dispute them . I understand where you are coming from with regard to examining evidence available via the codex and script(s). However DAO is an RPG the beauty of that is that it allows each of us to put their particular interpretation on events and characters within the game. Cherry picking evidence to support particular arguments while ignoring other contributory factors is something which we all do. Writing is writing. Looking to writers for inspiration or answers is sometimes perhaps like asking a war memorial's mason why your uncle's name has not been included in the list of the fallen - he was either missed off from the list which the mason copied or he just simply got left out
[quote]
indeed with all the mercenaries that Howe was hiring it is possible that his own forces were severely stretched in trying to hang on to his new "acquisitions". [/quote]The only evidence of that is the riot in Highever that you hear about late in the game, when there are other riots in Ferelden too.
[quote]An odd accusation from anyone especially Howe who's father was until the odds turned against him an Orlesian lickspittle himself. [/quote]Again, it was Rendon who turned the arling over to the rebels and saw his own father hung. If that doesn't absolve him of collaboration, I don't know what does.
What it does prove is that he cannot be trusted. Anyone who betrays his own kin for personal gain scores points over even a scorpion
[quote]Looking at the Grey Wardens as a shady foreign order when it's recruits were all Ferelden's is a bit much even for Ferelden political imbeciles, but crude is maybe sometimes effective even though the accusation is so thin it is almost transparent and any Ferelden noble with an IQ above that of a quill would be able to see through that immediately. [/quote]Two centuries before, the Wardens were kicked out for trying to overturn Ferelden's crown. Duncan is from Val Royeux, though he says he's from Highever- I assume that's a birthplace. The Wardens' status is still very tenuous in Ferelden, as Duncan will tell you in several of the origins. They relied on Maric's and then Cailan's patronage and didn't have many recruits.
[quote]
I've not disputed that. Commander Dryden was thrown into the wardens as she was seen as a contender to the throne by Arland. The alternative to that was execution. Dryden used her position as commander to support a rebellion. The wardens lax in enforcing their neutrality and focus deserved everything they got in my view, but the mistake was that it was Dryden that was the problem. The wardens were simply a vehicle for her to achieve her ends. The Ferelden kings had the right of it in those days the wardens WERE freeloaders and not doing their job properly. Duncan knew his fight was doomed to failure but he fought anyway why? because that's what Grey Warden's do - fight the darkspawn - either in the open or the Deep Roadsd -at least that's what I understand about this legend [/quote]
[quote]As for Bann Alfstanna she was one of Cousland's banns anyway.[/quote]Not sure where you're getting that. I don't see it in her codex entry, for instance. If she owed fealty, she wouldn't have offered bowmen as if it was something she was volunteering. In fact until you mention her brother, she's not very interested in you. Hardly bending the knee.
[quote]Try looking at Bann Ulfstanna's area of control - Waking Sea is in the North unless I am mistaken. Another thing that politics has taught me offer help to your leige lord (or his heirs) before he demands it. That way you advance in his standing and secure your own future[/quote]
I think you have a more dynastic view of teyrns than is warranted. When you ask Loghain about his teyrnir, the dialogue implies that it's tiny and mostly barren. He had national influence because he was a royal advisor.
The structure of Ferelden is not terribly complicated . With a large number of Terynirs disposed of there remain outside the isolated and curiously unpopulated royal family only two major noble houses. With the Cousland's out of the way the bannorns are all up for grabs. As far as I can make out most of them were either in Central Ferelden or in the North and under Cousland influence or at least passively friendly. A big move for Howe who obviously had eyes on the throne if one was to accept your reasoning. Either way Loghain's future was very bleak and his self confessed influence due to his rep and relationship to the throne is probably an honest one. Ferelden's basic problem was it's lack of a strong king. Alastair was not a good replacement but a sentimental one only. Loghain had no statesman like abilities and for all his so called standing was nothing more than a hard headed warrior and commoner who was promoted outside the military beyond his abilities. Nothing deep about the man he was simply a warrior and fighter who was trying to apply the brakes on a vehicle which was careering out of control having hit an oil slick. Loghain knew he did not have the background or skills to compete on equal terms with most of Ferelden's nobility and his move to regency in my view was an act of desperation as it suddenly dawned on him that his country was about to go up in flames. In his limited way and looking around him he (in the absence of the Cousland's) could see no alternative, but to do what he did. Howe with all his treachery might in that light seem a better bet for Ferelden than anybody else, assuming that any other noble estates survived his ambitions. Loghain gives testimony to his greatest fears and relief at the end of the duel following the landsmeet. All he was doing was trying to find a strong leader to untie and save his country. Self interest of the Banns Arls and Teryns prevented that from happening
In terms of your other arguments I do dispute them . I understand where you are coming from with regard to examining evidence available via the codex and script(s). However DAO is an RPG the beauty of that is that it allows each of us to put their particular interpretation on events and characters within the game. Cherry picking evidence to support particular arguments while ignoring other contributory factors is something which we all do. Writing is writing. Looking to writers for inspiration or answers is sometimes perhaps like asking a war memorial's mason why your uncle's name has not been included in the list of the fallen - he was either missed off from the list which the mason copied or he just simply got left out
Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:51 .
#11431
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 02:36
Joy Divison
-
- Members
- 1 837 messages
I'm not sure we can use "democracy" and "England" in the same sentence until 1832's Reform Act at the earliest. And even then...
I would agree that the "roots" of democracy is based a combination of the feudal system's inherent check on King's power (itself a derivative of Roman culture) and the Intellectual movement of the Renaissance.
I would agree that the "roots" of democracy is based a combination of the feudal system's inherent check on King's power (itself a derivative of Roman culture) and the Intellectual movement of the Renaissance.
#11432
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 02:43
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
I disagree that the early English system of law had much to do with the Romans. They learned to codify from them, but the basics were in Germanic customary law. I do use "democracy" loosely. Honestly I think you can use the term loosely for any system that claims to have it.Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not sure we can use "democracy" and "England" in the same sentence until 1832's Reform Act at the earliest. And even then...
I would agree that the "roots" of democracy is based a combination of the feudal system's inherent check on King's power (itself a derivative of Roman culture) and the Intellectual movement of the Renaissance.
Fanfic note: I published the epilogue of The Arrangement this morning. Naturally I spotted some typos just now and the work nanny filter blocks ffnet so I can't fix them until later. *sigh* Anyway, I am thrilled to be done and thank all those who have followed/ given encouragement (or just not mocked, LOL). I can now read all those other delicious stories!! Yay! And free time again, just before Skyrim sucks it all away.
@Cobwebmaster: I think you're exaggerating the banns "being up for grabs" or for this sort of patronage system at all. Any sort of fealty above their own heads seems to be held very loosely. In the Denerim cutscenes and at the LM, the banns are speaking for themselves, not as vassals. I see Ferelden as being based on an Anglo-Saxon model. A man's home was his castle, even if it was a small one. Though in Witch Hunt there is a note that banns are looking to Redcliffe as a counterweight to Denerim. And of course you're free to mentally mold the story into your own AU version- I did the same, heh- but I'm just pointing out that you're being speculative.
Modifié par Addai67, 04 octobre 2011 - 02:52 .
#11433
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 04:47
Mike3207
-
- Members
- 1 741 messages
Costin_Razvan wrote...
Mike Smith wrote...
It's been mentioned several times there won't be a royal heir-where is this referenced? The only thing I see on the subject is that Gaider said it was impossible for 2 Wardens (without magical help) and there was a reduced chance with 1 Warden.
There was an interview where he said it at Gamescon.
That's really a disappointment, especially with the Warden being gone. I do hope it's something he might change hs mind on later. Otherwise, I won't have a lot of interest in the Dragon Age franchise going forward. Skyrim holds a lot of promise, and I imagine it will get most of my RPG time next year.
#11434
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 09:24
CalJones
-
- Members
- 3 205 messages
Thanks for the epilogue, Addai. A satisfying conclusion to your tale.
#11435
Posté 04 octobre 2011 - 09:36
Morwen Eledhwen
-
- Members
- 1 067 messages
Addai67 wrote...
Fanfic note: I published the epilogue of The Arrangement this morning. Naturally I spotted some typos just now and the work nanny filter blocks ffnet so I can't fix them until later. *sigh* Anyway, I am thrilled to be done and thank all those who have followed/ given encouragement (or just not mocked, LOL). I can now read all those other delicious stories!! Yay! And free time again, just before Skyrim sucks it all away.
Yay!
Congratulations! Man, I am so far behind on my ffic reading --yours and everyone else's. I think I have Chapter 35 of TA stuck in an open tab on my home computer in a "yeah, I'll totally read this when I have a minute" sort of way, and then all of a sudden my alert list blew up with Addai-explosion. *rubs hands together* I can't wait to read. I've read a lot of fanfic and a lot of Loghain stories, but very few of them have finished. Yours, I think, might be my first. I'm interested to see how it all shakes down.
#11436
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 12:01
phaonica
-
- Members
- 3 435 messages
Addai67 wrote...
Fanfic note: I published the epilogue of The Arrangement this morning. Naturally I spotted some typos just now and the work nanny filter blocks ffnet so I can't fix them until later. *sigh* Anyway, I am thrilled to be done and thank all those who have followed/ given encouragement (or just not mocked, LOL). I can now read all those other delicious stories!! Yay! And free time again, just before Skyrim sucks it all away.
Grats on finishing the story. I did like the way it ended. You did a very impressive job on the whole story, and it was a privilege to read it. <3 And now you are free! Enjoy!
#11437
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 04:22
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
Thanks phaonica, I'm glad the ending redeemed it a bit for you. 
#11438
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 11:08
Bleachrude
-
- Members
- 3 154 messages
[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...
She also was just a consort, not the ruler, that fit Cailan's role and as much a fool as Cailan was do you really expect me to believe Anora could as she wished with him on the throne? Really? [/quote]
(Sorry for replying so late..real life waits for no-one)Given the game explicitly mentions that she DID do all the ruling, I'm not sure why my viewpoint is considered "wrong"
[quote] The only reason Eamon opposes Anora is because he has a VALID concern about the succession (and as so-called fans of political science/history - this should be a freaking HUGE concern - pretty much EVERY war in the era that Ferelden mimics can be traced to answering "the succession" question. [/quote]
[quote]You honestly buy his bull****? Eamon wants to have as much power closer to the crown as possible, this can be done with Alistair on throne but not Anora[/quote].
But then why in RtO would he beg/plead for Cailan to wait for his forces...if Eamon is only interested in power, why give it up and let Alistair become a ward of the chantry...Think about it, if Cailan falls off his horse and dies being able to present Alistair to court would make more sense since if he did become a templar, his vow would've prevented him from being a noble a la Alfstana's brother .
I know this may sound "naive" but i don't think Eamon is actually that interested in power per se...otherwise he would never marry isolde and thus get ostracized from court...
Eamon from the end of the occupation to his marriage to Isolde was Ferelden's most eligible bachelor and the potential political contacts/support a marriage could've brought to any noble woman should've meant that Eamon was fighting them off with a stick...Yet he married an Orlesian? For a guy "interested" in power, that's such an obviously bad move....
[quote]Eamon was also the one to suggest to Cailan to renounce Anora and I very much doubt he was for the marriage[/quote].
I don't think Eamon actually cared because at that time, both rowena and Maric were alive and in fact, like he mentions in his letter, politically and socially, joining the Theirins with the Mac Tirs was a no-brainer. He's a Guerrin and guerrins are steadfast supporters of the Theirin line...think about it from his perspective and what his family sacrificed to put a Theirin back on the throne JUST to see the line end after one generation? To Eamon, I can easily see this being seen as a slap in the fact of what his father and sister did....
I wager to Eamon It's not just the succession issue but the idea that Calenhad line dies out just because? Hell, even if Maric was alive I think Eamon would be needling Cailan and maric to put Anora aside...
[quote]As for succession, it IS a valid concern, but since the heir still needs to be elected by the Landsmeet and since Alistair is a Grey Warden how does placing him on the throne guarantee an heir?![/quote]
Eamon et al don't know about the fact that grey wardens have a sterility issue and like all people of that era, the fact that there was no heir was attributed (rightly or wrongly) to the woman Frankly, they ARE gambling that the problem with the Anora/Cailan marriage was that Anora was barren and NOT that Cailan was sterile..
[quote]Besides which Anora can nominate someone who is not of her blood to take the throne. If she pulled enough political strings, and for Christ's sake she has a large number of supporters already, then her appointed successor has a stronger chance of taking the throne then the one Alistair would theoretically have, since Alistair is politically inept.[/quote]
Which she lost thanks to her father. Loghain did her a disservice by simply "swooping" in and taking command....I always personally believed that if Anora had been the one to take charge and actually do the talking, the Landsmeet would've gone along...
BTW, what makes Alistair politically inept? He's never dealt with politics but again, if the Templars of Dragon Age ARE based on the knight templars of our world, Alistair's education should be AT LEAST as good/broad as any noble IMO.
The knight templars were not stupid IRL and were regularly schooled inboth economics, politics etc.
[quote]With regard to the nobility, actually Alistair pretty much can ignore the nobility ironically IMO. He has the broad support of the commoners and depending on your choices frankly should have stronger contacts among the chantry (a.k.a "Hey I helped find the sacred ashes of Andraste), dwarves and elves. [/quote][quote]And Anora, the COMMONER ( yes commoner, since BOTH her parents where born as such, check the wiki for her mother ) wouldn't have broad popular support from the commoners?! SERIOUSLY?[/quote]
A commoner who lived all her life since Rowena's death in the palace...Sure, she's not Habren but how much interaction do you think she's had with the common populace.
[/quote]
She also was just a consort, not the ruler, that fit Cailan's role and as much a fool as Cailan was do you really expect me to believe Anora could as she wished with him on the throne? Really? [/quote]
(Sorry for replying so late..real life waits for no-one)Given the game explicitly mentions that she DID do all the ruling, I'm not sure why my viewpoint is considered "wrong"
[quote] The only reason Eamon opposes Anora is because he has a VALID concern about the succession (and as so-called fans of political science/history - this should be a freaking HUGE concern - pretty much EVERY war in the era that Ferelden mimics can be traced to answering "the succession" question. [/quote]
[quote]You honestly buy his bull****? Eamon wants to have as much power closer to the crown as possible, this can be done with Alistair on throne but not Anora[/quote].
But then why in RtO would he beg/plead for Cailan to wait for his forces...if Eamon is only interested in power, why give it up and let Alistair become a ward of the chantry...Think about it, if Cailan falls off his horse and dies being able to present Alistair to court would make more sense since if he did become a templar, his vow would've prevented him from being a noble a la Alfstana's brother .
I know this may sound "naive" but i don't think Eamon is actually that interested in power per se...otherwise he would never marry isolde and thus get ostracized from court...
Eamon from the end of the occupation to his marriage to Isolde was Ferelden's most eligible bachelor and the potential political contacts/support a marriage could've brought to any noble woman should've meant that Eamon was fighting them off with a stick...Yet he married an Orlesian? For a guy "interested" in power, that's such an obviously bad move....
[quote]Eamon was also the one to suggest to Cailan to renounce Anora and I very much doubt he was for the marriage[/quote].
I don't think Eamon actually cared because at that time, both rowena and Maric were alive and in fact, like he mentions in his letter, politically and socially, joining the Theirins with the Mac Tirs was a no-brainer. He's a Guerrin and guerrins are steadfast supporters of the Theirin line...think about it from his perspective and what his family sacrificed to put a Theirin back on the throne JUST to see the line end after one generation? To Eamon, I can easily see this being seen as a slap in the fact of what his father and sister did....
I wager to Eamon It's not just the succession issue but the idea that Calenhad line dies out just because? Hell, even if Maric was alive I think Eamon would be needling Cailan and maric to put Anora aside...
[quote]As for succession, it IS a valid concern, but since the heir still needs to be elected by the Landsmeet and since Alistair is a Grey Warden how does placing him on the throne guarantee an heir?![/quote]
Eamon et al don't know about the fact that grey wardens have a sterility issue and like all people of that era, the fact that there was no heir was attributed (rightly or wrongly) to the woman Frankly, they ARE gambling that the problem with the Anora/Cailan marriage was that Anora was barren and NOT that Cailan was sterile..
[quote]Besides which Anora can nominate someone who is not of her blood to take the throne. If she pulled enough political strings, and for Christ's sake she has a large number of supporters already, then her appointed successor has a stronger chance of taking the throne then the one Alistair would theoretically have, since Alistair is politically inept.[/quote]
Which she lost thanks to her father. Loghain did her a disservice by simply "swooping" in and taking command....I always personally believed that if Anora had been the one to take charge and actually do the talking, the Landsmeet would've gone along...
BTW, what makes Alistair politically inept? He's never dealt with politics but again, if the Templars of Dragon Age ARE based on the knight templars of our world, Alistair's education should be AT LEAST as good/broad as any noble IMO.
The knight templars were not stupid IRL and were regularly schooled inboth economics, politics etc.
[quote]With regard to the nobility, actually Alistair pretty much can ignore the nobility ironically IMO. He has the broad support of the commoners and depending on your choices frankly should have stronger contacts among the chantry (a.k.a "Hey I helped find the sacred ashes of Andraste), dwarves and elves. [/quote][quote]And Anora, the COMMONER ( yes commoner, since BOTH her parents where born as such, check the wiki for her mother ) wouldn't have broad popular support from the commoners?! SERIOUSLY?[/quote]
A commoner who lived all her life since Rowena's death in the palace...Sure, she's not Habren but how much interaction do you think she's had with the common populace.
[/quote]
Modifié par Bleachrude, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .
#11439
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 02:38
Zaxarus
-
- Members
- 182 messages
@Addai
With Loghain not very much to my liking (he only survived in one of my 6-7 runs until now), i only today detected your "Arrangement" story. I've to admit it's very good written so far (i read the first 11 chapters today, i think that to express something about my fun following the story). It is very interesting to see the events from his point of view and the problems (age difference and the whole not so easy character of Loghain) are astonishing well described and believable.
I wish you luck and many good ideas with your next writing project. And me fun with the remaining 25 chapters.
Zaxarus
@All
A little question. I searched in the wiki timeline but had no luck. How old are Loghain and Anora in 9:30?
With Loghain not very much to my liking (he only survived in one of my 6-7 runs until now), i only today detected your "Arrangement" story. I've to admit it's very good written so far (i read the first 11 chapters today, i think that to express something about my fun following the story). It is very interesting to see the events from his point of view and the problems (age difference and the whole not so easy character of Loghain) are astonishing well described and believable.
I wish you luck and many good ideas with your next writing project. And me fun with the remaining 25 chapters.
Zaxarus
@All
A little question. I searched in the wiki timeline but had no luck. How old are Loghain and Anora in 9:30?
Modifié par Zaxarus, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:39 .
#11440
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 03:08
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
Zaxarus, thank you very much, I'm flattered. I seem to recall that Anora is around 27 in the game, Cailan a little younger than her. Loghain would have been around 18 or 19 at the start of TST I think, which would make him early 50s at game time. I'm not sure if he has an age in the toolset or not.
#11441
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:38
Costin_Razvan
-
- Members
- 7 010 messages
Sorry for replying so late..real life waits for no-one)Given the game explicitly mentions that she DID do all the ruling, I'm not sure why my viewpoint is considered "wrong"
Ofc she did all the ruling, as in handling all the tasks Cailan handles, but do you really think she could have achieved something like building a University with Cailan in charge?
Cailan was the king, and he very much assumed he was the head of state, I do not believe he allowed Anora do to everything she wished.
But then why in RtO would he beg/plead for Cailan to wait for his forces...if Eamon is only interested in power, why give it up and let Alistair become a ward of the chantry...Think about it, if Cailan falls off his horse and dies being able to present Alistair to court would make more sense since if he did become a templar, his vow would've prevented him from being a noble a la Alfstana's brother .
I know this may sound "naive" but i don't think Eamon is actually that interested in power per se...otherwise he would never marry isolde and thus get ostracized from court...
Eamon from the end of the occupation to his marriage to Isolde was Ferelden's most eligible bachelor and the potential political contacts/support a marriage could've brought to any noble woman should've meant that Eamon was fighting them off with a stick...Yet he married an Orlesian? For a guy "interested" in power, that's such an obviously bad move....
Because Cailan surviving and marrying to Celene would be in his best interest. Cailan would go live in Orlais and Eamon could take over ruling Fereldan.
As for his marriage to Isolde, maybe build contacts in Orlais? I believe Eamon was the one who arranged for the Celene/Cailan marriage, something he might not have had done had he not married Isolde, just because Isolde is not a Fereldan noble doesn't mean there aren't political gains made by marrying her.
Eamon et al don't know about the fact that grey wardens have a sterility issue and like all people of that era, the fact that there was no heir was attributed (rightly or wrongly) to the woman Frankly, they ARE gambling that the problem with the Anora/Cailan marriage was that Anora was barren and NOT that Cailan was sterile..
Cailan the ****monger who didn't have any bastard children and you tell me Eamon would believe Anora is barren and Cailan not sterile? Seriously?
Which she lost thanks to her father. Loghain did her a disservice by simply "swooping" in and taking command....I always personally believed that if Anora had been the one to take charge and actually do the talking, the Landsmeet would've gone along...
Ofc, that was Loghain's mistake, that he tried placing himself as the Regeant until a Landsmeet could be called to place Anora on the throne. Loghain didn't want to get the country involved in a civil dispute over the crown until the Blight was over, problem is he just expected to be able to ignore the Bannorn, that's his stupidity.
BTW, what makes Alistair politically inept? He's never dealt with politics but again, if the Templars of Dragon Age ARE based on the knight templars of our world, Alistair's education should be AT LEAST as good/broad as any noble IMO.
The knight templars were not stupid IRL and were regularly schooled inboth economics, politics etc.
So you are trying to use the example of the real Knight's Templar to suggest somehow Alistair was trained to deal with political and econimical situations?
There's a few problems with your logic there:
1) The templars are controlled by the Chantry, they are a military arm and nothing more, they don't make political or economical decisions on their own. Even Meredith answered to the Grand Cleric in Kirkwall and the Viscount in that city being a puppet was something done by the Divine.
2) There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING to suggest in game that Alistair knows anything about politics, that is a fact.
A commoner who lived all her life since Rowena's death in the palace...Sure, she's not Habren but how much interaction do you think she's had with the common populace.
That doesn't matter at all. The fact Anora is simply BORN out of two commoners would be enough to win over the populace. This isn't the modern world where leaders give speeches on TV and you read about them in newspapers. This is the medieval age in a large country where it can take weeks to get a message across from one to the other.
#11442
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:39
Mike3207
-
- Members
- 1 741 messages
Grey Wardens are not sterile-they simply have a reduced chance of fertility. Gaider makes it clear Grey Wardens can have children-just not with other Grey Wardens(without using magic).
#11443
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:45
Zjarcal
-
- Members
- 10 841 messages
Costin_Razvan wrote...
CD Projekt wasn't ****ing around when they said most of their developers are hardcore. SEVEN Gargoyles and 3 GOLEMS at the same ****ing time? ( the pic above with 3 Golems was that fight after I head deals with the Gargoyles ) Or a Draug and 4 Draugir, that's freaking madness.
Quick question, what fights are those (as in the fight number)? I was playing Arena mode last night, only got till fight 9 with that Bruxa and those wraiths. Fun as hell but I'm clearly still not prepared to last long in that thing (playing on Hard).
Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .
#11444
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:07
Costin_Razvan
-
- Members
- 7 010 messages
Golems are fight 29, Draug is 30.
How far you in the game anyway?
How far you in the game anyway?
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:27 .
#11445
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 08:53
Zjarcal
-
- Members
- 10 841 messages
Still in act 1 since I restarted the whole thing once 2.0 was out (I was just trying to get the hang of things before that). Have finished almost all the side-quests and killed the Kayran last night. Loving it so far, great, great game.
Funny thing, I first started playing on easy given how so many people talked about this game being horrendously difficult even on easy... only to find myself cutting through enemies as if they were made out of butter. I really can't imagine how anyone would find easy to be difficult. Once I restarted with 2.0, I moved on to normal and eventually just pushed it to hard. It's challenging but fun nonetheless. I'll be sure to try Dark difficulty for my second playthrough.
In the meantime, back to the Arena!
Funny thing, I first started playing on easy given how so many people talked about this game being horrendously difficult even on easy... only to find myself cutting through enemies as if they were made out of butter. I really can't imagine how anyone would find easy to be difficult. Once I restarted with 2.0, I moved on to normal and eventually just pushed it to hard. It's challenging but fun nonetheless. I'll be sure to try Dark difficulty for my second playthrough.
In the meantime, back to the Arena!
#11446
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 09:19
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
Did you play it when it first came out, Zjarcal? I think the first patch rebalanced easy mode. I died a lot when I first played the game. Not so much now, though I still find the constant clickity clickity tedious, which was the real problem for me before- when combat already is annoying, to be dying a lot makes it unbearably so. Now with patches and a couple mods it's a breeze, I don't have to bother with traps or potions really and rarely have to make Geralt roll around like an idiot, which is how I wanted it.
Still find all the menus messy and would like some more quest markers. Also they need to make things like jumping up and down platforms run more smoothly. Waiting for Geralt to do what you tell him to do is annoying. But the story is all good. I also don't know why people dis Geralt's voice acting. Triss' makes me cringe sometimes, but I like Geralt's snide little remarks.
Still find all the menus messy and would like some more quest markers. Also they need to make things like jumping up and down platforms run more smoothly. Waiting for Geralt to do what you tell him to do is annoying. But the story is all good. I also don't know why people dis Geralt's voice acting. Triss' makes me cringe sometimes, but I like Geralt's snide little remarks.
#11447
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 10:06
Costin_Razvan
-
- Members
- 7 010 messages
Heh. Geralt telling Loredo. "I'm not human." and then Loredo going on his epic rant is a great moment in the game.
I despise Loredo, yet I admire the quality of his dialogue.
Not all combat needs to follow the same tactical companion party turn-based system that Bioware favors, just saying. You may dislike it as a system, as do others, however many other people love it.
As for quest markers..."Shrug" I loved getting lost in the forest personally, heh. Though I thought they fixed the whole jumping on platforms thing with 2.0? I dunno I just saw Geralt doing it faster.
The problem with TW2 is that it has software mouse and keyboard. The problem with that is if your PC is not powerful then you will have lag on your commands, and yes it is very noticeable.
I despise Loredo, yet I admire the quality of his dialogue.
Not all combat needs to follow the same tactical companion party turn-based system that Bioware favors, just saying. You may dislike it as a system, as do others, however many other people love it.
As for quest markers..."Shrug" I loved getting lost in the forest personally, heh. Though I thought they fixed the whole jumping on platforms thing with 2.0? I dunno I just saw Geralt doing it faster.
The problem with TW2 is that it has software mouse and keyboard. The problem with that is if your PC is not powerful then you will have lag on your commands, and yes it is very noticeable.
#11448
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 10:20
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
The dialogue is all top notch.
I like exploring for its own sake, but running in circles trying to find an objective is maddening to me.
I do realize others like the combat. For me it took a step down, because even though I didn't necessarily like the timed sequences in TW1, it seemed more realistic and dramatic with his special moves. But you can see they put a lot of effort in giving variety. I was impressed at the note that rain intensifies lightning spells, for instance.
Oh and I haven't dl'ed patch 2 yet- it didn't seem to offer anything I needed so I put it off to see if others had problems with it and to give mod creators time to adapt. We'll see if the jumping is smoother, that would be nice.
I like exploring for its own sake, but running in circles trying to find an objective is maddening to me.
I do realize others like the combat. For me it took a step down, because even though I didn't necessarily like the timed sequences in TW1, it seemed more realistic and dramatic with his special moves. But you can see they put a lot of effort in giving variety. I was impressed at the note that rain intensifies lightning spells, for instance.
Oh and I haven't dl'ed patch 2 yet- it didn't seem to offer anything I needed so I put it off to see if others had problems with it and to give mod creators time to adapt. We'll see if the jumping is smoother, that would be nice.
Modifié par Addai67, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:22 .
#11449
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 11:02
Zjarcal
-
- Members
- 10 841 messages
Addai67 wrote...
Did you play it when it first came out, Zjarcal? I think the first patch rebalanced easy mode. I died a lot when I first played the game. Not so much now, though I still find the constant clickity clickity tedious, which was the real problem for me before- when combat already is annoying, to be dying a lot makes it unbearably so. Now with patches and a couple mods it's a breeze, I don't have to bother with traps or potions really and rarely have to make Geralt roll around like an idiot, which is how I wanted it.
Still find all the menus messy and would like some more quest markers. Also they need to make things like jumping up and down platforms run more smoothly. Waiting for Geralt to do what you tell him to do is annoying. But the story is all good. I also don't know why people dis Geralt's voice acting. Triss' makes me cringe sometimes, but I like Geralt's snide little remarks.
Hmm, that's true, the patches may have tweaked things quite a bit. And no, I didn't play it when it came out, only bought it two weeks ago so it's true that I didn't get to experience what others did. Would've been interesting to see how things were handled before the patches. As it is know though, I think they have the difficulty settings just right, with easy being basically "story mode" and the harder settings being the true challenge. Though I'll never tackle Insane... because I am sure that losing my saves WOULD make me go insane.
What I do think the game was in dire need of was a tutorial of sorts, which thankfully 2.0 introduced. While I didn't need to be told how to open the inventory, I actually didn't even know a quick menu could be brought up by pressing ctrl (addmittedly I never read the pdf manuals). So the tutorial certainly was a great addition.
And yeah, the menus are quite messy, not exactly my favorite thing about the game. Also, while it's great to be able to meditate anywhere, I wish the animation wasn't so long. About quest markers, the game does have them in the map and an arrow that points you, though granted it doesn't work on a few quests. Of course it's mostly in the forest where it doesn't work... so yeah, running in circles will happen a lot. Took me FOREVER to find the second set of endrega coccoons, even if they were located in a place that I swore I had ran through dozens of times. Still, that forest is so damn beautiful that being lost in it really isn't that bad.
One last thing, about 2.0, which version do you have, the Steam version? The update has broken the steam overlay, so if you like using steam to take screenshots or use the in game browser, best to stick with the game as it is (since you say you're not interested in the other features like Arena mode). Otherwise I see no reason not to install it.
@Costin:
That was a great rant by Loredo indeed. I'm very pleased at the voice acting overall, it's much better than TW1. Except Triss... <_<
About the controls, I have noticed some lag indeed, though my PC barely meets the minimum requirements, so there's that to take into account. Still, it's perfectly playable nonetheless and I'm still loving the combat despite that issue.
#11450
Posté 06 octobre 2011 - 02:09
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Costin_Razvan wrote...
I despise Loredo, yet I admire the quality of his dialogue.
Much better than Howe imo. The only thing that made him decent was Tim Curry.
Loredo on the otherhand, is creepily believable and the dialogue contributed a lot to that.
