12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

2) I defend something I enjoy. My so called boderline fanatic defense of it isn't nearly as intense as yours of TW2. Pot, meet kettle.

That so? I am not the one taking the time to argue with everyone who says DA2 is **** on these same forums.

3) Where did I do that? I love discussing stuff with you but this constant witch hunting re: Bioware is not a discussion. You've written them off anyway. So, why waste time on them?

Because I would honestly want ME3 to not end up like a pile of ****, because I would like Morrigan to not be destroyed as a character.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I think Persephone is a breath of fresh air. I do like some DAO characters still, and I'm glad that not all discussions have turned into some kind of hate pit.

[tklivory]

Hanz54321 wrote...

So it seems an apple's n oranges comparison.

Oh sure - there's fan fiction and Gaider's long discussions where he expounds on his ideas, changing them as he changes. But they don't count. What is in the actual game counts. It's really not a lot of time when compared to the decades that comic book characters have to develop.

^^This.

It seems a bit unfair to compare a video game character as presented with any other type of character (movie, comic book, etc) because a video game character (at least, the ones we talk about) can do something that those characters can't: have different paths.

Video game characters are written for a completely different purpose than a comic book/movie/etc character.  Whereas comic books, movies, and books set out to expand and show a character, video game characters are given (by good writers, anyway) a good back story, good dialogue, but then are set loose into a world where most of the writing may never be seen, and the back story never even touched upon.

To whit: in Dragon Age alone, you may never even get to interact/see Zevran, Leliana, Sten, or Dog (or only see 1-2 lines with them) unless you happen to go to the right place, and even then you have to do the right thing.  A lot of people were surprised you could recruit Wynne because they just thought she was an NPC you had to kill to get into the tower.  The only ones forced on you are Alistair and Morrigan (and possibly Oghren).  Loghain is *still* called the 'Secret Companion' on the Dragon Age wiki.

Also, even though the characters are written statically just as movie/comic book/book characters are, they are encountered and interacted with *dynamically*, which is completely different from any other medium.  Whether or not you like Alistair seems (for most people) to be determined entirely by whether you talked to him more than twice, and either decided to keep trying or whether you wrote him off as a whiny complainer.  Wynne can be either a kindly grandmother or a lecturing old biddy.  Morrigan can be either a disdainful sarcastic bundle of negativity, or a sultry yet practical goddess of the divine.

It's why I love video games like this so da** much.  It ain't perfect, but it's got hooks!

Anyway...

The strength of writing in a video game doesn't necessarily lie in the dialogue or the overall sweep of the story, but in how it works into making the player experience work.  Judging by how many of us keep coming back and arguing about the motivations and decisions of why our PC did this, or what should our PC do in case of that, I think the writing team succeeded marvelously at its purpose for DA:O.  (can't speak for DA2 yet, haven't played it).

And, for (belated) OT: Loghain is a *perfect* example of what I was talking about: a character who can be either 2-dimensional mwahaha bad/evil character, or an evolving, changing companion with surprising depth.

Ummm... my 2 cents? 

**
edited for correction

Modifié par tklivory, 15 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
It has never occured to me to compare comic book characters to video game characters. I oft make comparisons to movie characters, but never comic books.

Costin specifically said cartoon show, in other words he was referring to the incarnation of Magneto in the 1990s show. There are too many incarnations of Magneto that it's almost meaningless to try and compare him to anything (even though there is a canonical universe).  But one could pertinently compare a specific incarnation with video game characters.

Now one might argue that since it's a show, Magneto had a lot more time to be developped, but since I watched the show recently I can say that he apppeared rarely (and stole the show when he did).

Magneto as he appeared in the 1990s show, is better than the vast majority of Bioware characters that I know of, imo. In that he is multi-dimensional without being a protagonist (barring maybe one episode). Heck, he doesn't even fit the protagonist / antagonist dichotomy well, in many ways similar to Xanatos in that regard.
And the mutant issue was developped far better than the mage issue.

[Xilizhra]

And the mutant issue was developped far better than the mage issue.

There's an advantage there in that they could just drop mutants into our world as opposed to having to build a new world from the ground up (though, unless mutants just started recently showing up chronologically in X-Men, I seriously doubt the world would look anything like ours).

[KnightofPhoenix]

They created a universe from the ground up. Inspired by ours (like DA is inspired by ours), but different.

Which doesn't really matter when it comes to the mage issue. Thedas was already established by DA:O, DA2 did not create a new world from the ground up.

[Xilizhra]

DA2 is the gap between some vastly more interesting ideas than what appeared in Origins, and a really crappy schedule. I maintain that it can produce a far better story than Origins, but it may require some fairly significant mental canon additions; Origins could be considered better if we stick exclusively to what's in the game itself (though I personally really hate being a voiceless Schrodinger's player character, and I think that's what's killing my ability to replay the damned thing at all).

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think the mage issue in Origins, though appeared for a very short period of time, was better than all of DA2 combined when it comes to the same issue. The blood mage female begging for her life was more interesting to me than all mages in DA2, again combined.

Origins' biggest failing in that regard is that Uldred was under-developed, despite having great potential (still better than Orsino for me). As a character, I respect him more than Anders for instance.

[Xilizhra]

Orsino stupidity aside, I think the biggest flaw with the DA2 mage presentation was being unable to see inside the Circle. Gleaning information from it is more difficult than it should have been, though I think the thought process was "we know how Circles work from Origins already, so Kirkwall will be like that except worse, and we'll look at more apostates." Except it wasn't handled with the most care possible. As for the rest, I'm just more inclined to mentally fill in gaps in the story than you are.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think I can pinpoint DA2's greatest flaw, because of how many there are. But yea,

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

2) I defend something I enjoy. My so called boderline fanatic defense of it isn't nearly as intense as yours of TW2. Pot, meet kettle.

That so? I am not the one taking the time to argue with everyone who says DA2 is **** on these same forums.
.

Exaggeration much? Since moving to Ireland, I've barely had time to play DAII, much less waste my time on that kind of nonsense. But go ahead, hyperbole seems to work on everthing around here.

Yeesh, if that is how you see me, truly, I must say that I am kinda saddened by that. I hoped you would understand the difference. And I think you do.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think I can pinpoint DA2's greatest flaw, because of how many there are. But yea,

DA2's greatest flaw, overall, is not enough time being allotted to make it. No flaws in it seem inherent, as such, just coming from a lack of polish. If the story had been revised some and enough time had been available to make new environments, it would have been great., leagues better than Origins in my opinion.
Not that I care that much about environments, but I know many here do, and it's a legitimate concern of quality, unlike opinion based stylistic things, none of which needed changing IMO.

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I think Persephone is a breath of fresh air. I do like some DAO characters still, and I'm glad that not all discussions have turned into some kind of hate pit.

Thanks. It's just that even when I come into a thread dedicated to my fave DAO character, all I see is DAII bashing. I avoid the ME3 forum, the DAII forum is a battlefield unless you despise the game and pretty much everything else doesn't really interest me here on the BSN. After moving to Ireland, I avoided the BSN anyway: using various dev accounts on Twitter to get all the news. I might return to doing that.

[tklivory]

Xilizhra wrote...
DA2's greatest flaw, overall, is not enough time being allotted to make it. No flaws in it seem inherent, as such, just coming from a lack of polish. If the story had been revised some and enough time had been available to make new environments, it would have been great., leagues better than Origins in my opinion.
Not that I care that much about environments, but I know many here do, and it's a legitimate concern of quality, unlike opinion based stylistic things, none of which needed changing IMO.

DISCLAIMER: I haven't played DA2 (yet).

Speaking as one who has only read the various love/hate stuff written about (here and elsewhere), I will say that my biggest fear of playing it is a comparison I found online that basically showed that DA:O had literally twice as much writing as DA2.  As someone who shall we say, adores the verbage of DA:O, this has made me reluctant to try the game.  (yes, yes, coward that I am)

Also, and I know a lot of people differ from me on this, I really don't like the whole dialogue wheel.  I want my character to say what I choose, not a paraphrase of what the wheel says.  I remember 3 distinct times in ME where i chose something on the dialogue wheel, and my character would say something that made me go, "Wait, what?  I didn't want to say that!"  Kinda took me out of the character, and thus the RP aspect, effectively (though I know many disagree with me on that).

Bear in mind: ME and DA:O were my first Bioware games, so... yeah.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
DA2's greatest flaw, overall, is not enough time being allotted to make it. No flaws in it seem inherent, as such, just coming from a lack of polish.

I disagree, I believe a lot of it is in the fundamental design.

But I won't get into that, I really stopped caring.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
DA2's greatest flaw, overall, is not enough time being allotted to make it. No flaws in it seem inherent, as such, just coming from a lack of polish.

I disagree, I believe a lot of it is in the fundamental design.

But I won't get into that, I really stopped caring.

Well, some of the polishing I'd do is fairly radical, like getting rid of the gigantic timeskips and adding some of your combat-free quest solution ideas.

[KnightofPhoenix]

And removing the idol, and removing the Qunari (or creating a better reason for them to be there and integrating them in the plot), and rewriting all companions except Varric and Aveline so I can give a damn, and adding paths so we can explore faction better...etc etc etc.

Yea, it would need a lot of "radical polishing" for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 octobre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Xilizhra]

I can't do anything about companions because, eh, they'll resonate with you or not. I connected way better to DA2's companions than DAO's (I'm even practically neutral about my DAO romance, something that's never happened with either ME or DA2). The idol is, I think, worthwhile assuming it only affects Bartrand, because I think it's an interesting plot point related to the primeval thaig, but it can end with Varric's Act 3 quest (though seeing the full effects of its power is... impressive).
We could eliminate the qunari, I suppose, but they add an interesting third side to the main conflict, and we get some more information on their society that was sort of easter egg-ish in DAO, as you had to bring Sten around everywhere and hope he said something in one-time opportunities at certain spots. But I wouldn't mind if it could be done well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

They weren't a third side to the conflict. It was a separate conflict totally unrelated because Bioware sucks at politics.

But anyways, this is a futile exercise and I don't care that much to think about it anymore (I had written a different story for DA2).

[Addai]

KoP asked about the DLC and I answered. I don't care about it, either. Persephone- just scroll past. That's what I do when the conversation turns to things I'm not interested in. You take this too personally and there's no reason to. You're never going to change people's minds about DA2, so just ignore it.

Origins remains a good game, though tarnished by association with what's come after. There's a certain investment cost in the franchise that keeps me coming back, but egad... Now I hear there's going to be a comic with Alistair and Isabela adventuring together in Antiva.    I suppose after that will be Loghain and Celene's Excellent Adventure.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 octobre 2011 - 09:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Now I hear there's going to be a comic with Alistair and Isabela adventuring together in Antiva. 

[tklivory]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Now I hear there's going to be a comic with Alistair and Isabela adventuring together in Antiva. 

Modifié par tklivory, 15 octobre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
Now I hear there's going to be a comic with Alistair and Isabela adventuring together in Antiva.    I suppose after that will be Loghain and Celene's Excellent Adventure.

Whhhaaaaaat?

Link? I mean....huh? I am seriously at a loss for words. Like....what?
...

...
I'm seriously trying to think of something to say. How does that make any sense at all? What about the Warden?  I can't wait for DA3 where Morrigan and Oghren start a family together while riding robotic Unicorns as they travel back in time to stop evil Dinosaur Orlesians from tainting Brazil's water supply with moldy cheese. Alistair and Isabela traveling together in Antiva makes about as much sense.

Guh...it can't be worse than the ME comics...can it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well you never know, maybe King Alistair has some business in Antiva that he wants to do with the utmost subtlety....so he decides to tag with the person who would make bears look subtle....in order to....secure Ferelden interests overseas by.....

Ok why wasn't it about Zevran and Izzy? Zevran has a reason to be there.