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[Persephone]

Chapter twenty-five of "The Edge Of The Grey Enigma" may be read here. http://www.fanfictio...t/s/6087280/25/ Warnings: Angst, violence of several kinds and...tragedy all around.

[Addai]

I'm not sure what's objectionable about Wrex's development in ME2.

I have a feeling that I wouldn't like the characters you guys admire, because I wouldn't find them relatable at all. I like that Bioware gives some human-ness to their characters.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm not sure what's objectionable about Wrex's development in ME2.

I have a feeling that I wouldn't like the characters you guys admire, because I wouldn't find them relatable at all. I like that Bioware gives some human-ness to their characters.

I have to say that while it's certainly welcome to encounter competence, ability and shrewdness in a game, story or whatever, those are not my deciding factors either. And I found the plot of DAO more than tolerable. Relatable, even. Moreso than both Witcher games. *Shrugs*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm not sure what's objectionable about Wrex's development in ME2.

I have a feeling that I wouldn't like the characters you guys admire, because I wouldn't find them relatable at all. I like that Bioware gives some human-ness to their characters.

Nothing is objectionable about his development, I implied that he became much more awesome in ME2 than in ME1, becaue he was no longer in Shepard's shadow. In fact, Wrex is one of the few things I love about ME2.

And I don't get how intelligence and competence are an inhuman thing, but different priorities and perspective I guess.
I don't see human-ness, I just see stupidity to uplift mediocre protagonists and to give the illusion of importance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 octobre 2011 - 12:28 .

[tklivory]

@KoP - By the companion curse, you mean Bioware's need to cozy up to the player's ego by making sure none of the companion's are more awesome than the PC? Ever? Cuz if that's what you're talking about, then, oh, yeah, that drives me crazy too. It's not exclusive to Bioware, mind, but I've noticed it the most in Bioware games.

Modifié par tklivory, 30 octobre 2011 - 02:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes. They don't have to be more awesome than the PC. Just pro-active, doing their own thing and being competent at it. Not just following the PC's shadow.

TW2 did an excellent job at it, in that Roche and Iorveth are awesome, while they are fighting next to Geralt who is also awesome. They are doing their own thing and are pretty good at it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In other news, after playing Arkham City and getting back in my periodic Batman fanboy mood, I watched Batman: Mask of the Phantasm yet again and I have to reiterate how awesome it is.

It captures the essence of Batman perfectly imo, and I love Andrea Beaumont. This movie puts all other Batman movies to shame (the only one close to it is Under the Red Hood). And it still manages to make me tear up...

[Bleachrude]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes. They don't have to be more awesome than the PC. Just pro-active, doing their own thing and being competent at it. Not just following the PC's shadow.

TW2 did an excellent job at it, in that Roche and Iorveth are awesome, while they are fighting next to Geralt who is also awesome. They are doing their own thing and are pretty good at it.

Actually that might be detriment to the characters in the eyes of fans weirdly enough...

One of the reasons why Jacob is not liked in ME2 fan threads is that he's too much like Shepherd in that his backstory is too similar to the protoganist  AND the fact that he pretty much is the only one in Me2 other than Mordin who has his head on straight...

Indeed, IIRC, there was many a complaint about how well he "handled" his loyalty mission and with many people pointing out that Shepherd really wasn't important to it...unlike say Miranda or Garrus' loyalty mission

[Costin_Razvan]

Knight you might wanna check this out: www.youtube.com/watch

I won't say what it is but it's sure to be interesting for you.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 octobre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Mike3207]

What was Loghain's goal at the Landsmeet-King, Regent, or make Anora Queen? He says after the fact that it was always in his mind to have Anora on the throne, but I have my doubts about that.

[Addai]

Bleachrude wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes. They don't have to be more awesome than the PC. Just pro-active, doing their own thing and being competent at it. Not just following the PC's shadow.

TW2 did an excellent job at it, in that Roche and Iorveth are awesome, while they are fighting next to Geralt who is also awesome. They are doing their own thing and are pretty good at it.

Actually that might be detriment to the characters in the eyes of fans weirdly enough...

One of the reasons why Jacob is not liked in ME2 fan threads is that he's too much like Shepherd in that his backstory is too similar to the protoganist  AND the fact that he pretty much is the only one in Me2 other than Mordin who has his head on straight...

Indeed, IIRC, there was many a complaint about how well he "handled" his loyalty mission and with many people pointing out that Shepherd really wasn't important to it...unlike say Miranda or Garrus' loyalty mission

Huh, never heard that.  I have other reasons for avoiding Jacob with a ten foot pole, mainly because Shepard turns into a creepy sexual harasser the minute she starts sniffing the gun oil in there.

I have no problem with competent, independent NPCs (Shale comes to mind- love Shale), though I also think it's fine to have NPCs who are more profoundly affected by an interaction with a PC.

[Addai]

Mike Smith wrote...

What was Loghain's goal at the Landsmeet-King, Regent, or make Anora Queen? He says after the fact that it was always in his mind to have Anora on the throne, but I have my doubts about that.

I don't, personally.  I think he wanted Anora on the throne and her throne secure.  He is too relieved post-LM to make me think he liked playing king.

[Costin_Razvan]

Finished Witcher 2 Addai or still playing it?

On the whole subject of competent companions...I agree with Knight to a certain point. I do not mind Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Ashley in ME1 and 2 ( those that remain on team ). Sten, Oghren in DA:O ( I would like to say someone else but really I am not impressed by anyone else save Loghain and he only plays a small part as a companion ), and Zaeed in ME2.

The rest? I wouldn't give a **** if they all died brutally before my eyes in the game. Well there are Awakening companions and I do like all of them. Though it should be said the main plot of Awakening was written by someone who left the company.

[Addai]

I got stuck in Flotsam and haven't had the stomach to go back to it. I've been re-playing Fallout New Vegas and of course Skyrim will hit soon. I imagine I'll finish it eventually.

[Bleachrude]

Addai67 wrote...

Huh, never heard that.  I have other reasons for avoiding Jacob with a ten foot pole, mainly because Shepard turns into a creepy sexual harasser the minute she starts sniffing the gun oil in there.

I have no problem with competent, independent NPCs (Shale comes to mind- love Shale), though I also think it's fine to have NPCs who are more profoundly affected by an interaction with a PC.

Well there's that too..seriously Addai is really underselling just how "in-heat" Fshep sounds when you just ask him the mandatory "what's up with you Jacob" pening conversation line...

Throw in that on anything on hardcore or higher, he's pretty much the most useless team member and yoo can see why Jacob gets little love...

One of thie things I do think DAII did right was that you did get a better sense that the other companions had lives outside of the Champion...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bleachrude wrote...
Actually that might be detriment to the characters in the eyes of fans weirdly enough...

One of the reasons why Jacob is not liked in ME2 fan threads is that he's too much like Shepherd in that his backstory is too similar to the protoganist  AND the fact that he pretty much is the only one in Me2 other than Mordin who has his head on straight...

Indeed, IIRC, there was many a complaint about how well he "handled" his loyalty mission and with many people pointing out that Shepherd really wasn't important to it...unlike say Miranda or Garrus' loyalty mission

The problem with Jacob being like Shepard is that both are very boring. And his loyalty mission was boring and inconsequential, I was not sure why I should give a damn. But ultimately, even Jacob is just a follower and nothing else. He doesn't do anything except at the very very beginning.

Mordin was really the only plot relevent companion, but even within the scope of the game, he was just a follower.

Addai67 wrote...
I have no
problem with competent, independent NPCs (Shale comes to mind- love
Shale), though I also think it's fine to have NPCs who are more
profoundly affected by an interaction with a PC.

Shale is neither independent (not the kind I am looking for anyways) nor competent. She still follows the Warden around and does what he.she wants, barring one occasion.  Ultimately, she doesn't do anything except follow.

The same cannot be said about Roche or Iorveth.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Addai]

So you take issue with the whole idea of having party followers? Well then. Since that's sort of Bioware's trademark...

[KnightofPhoenix]

I take issues with downplaying them to make mediocre protagonists look better. Indeed, we had Gaider himself say that their original version of Alistair was scrapped for this reason. Because he was apparently "too strong and independent" that it made the PC look bad.

Well I want independent and strong companions, who can also do their own thing without having to relying on the PC 24/7. I'd say Aveline fit the bill, but the game showed her as so incompetent and reliant on the killing machine Hawke that she doesn't count. Anders kind of was in Act 3, but that's about it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 octobre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Bleachrude]

Not sure you can compare a single player RPG with a party-based RPG.

I'm not sure it is possible to have the party companions be as "awesome/competent" yet be on call and follow the adventurer everywhere...

The best you could hope for might be say something like a combination of Kal'Reegar where he helps out in certain missions but is not available for other stuff AND have more split based party missions a la the suicide mission (but instead you actually control the other party) AND have "character fault/breakpoints a la Dragon age 1...

Then again, depending on the plot (say fate of the world versus fate of the city), it might not really make sense for companions to not be with you at all times...For example, would Loghain have been as interesting if you could recruit him from the start but doesn't have any breakpoints?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes, that's what I would prefer. That companions are temporary and would only follow you when it makes sense for them. So they wouldn't be on call all the time and they wouldn't follow everywhere. And they wouldn't join you in just any quest. They should refuse helping you out in things that do not interest them or that conflict with their views.

They can remain around doing their own thing, but I would not want them to follow the PC all the time, even if they live in the same city.

[Bleachrude]

I thought about that myself a while back as my "ultimate RPG" but the problem is that you would have to design the game such that you don't NEED any specific character...

Take DAII for example...If you didn't play mage Champion, the only Healer you got is Anders and on Nightmare, while it is possible to win without him, it makes it much easier with him though I find...

Personal example: In DA:O I can do the Deep Roads on Nightmare EASILY with Mage Warden, Wynne, Morrigan and Alistair.

But doing it with same level Oghren, Shale, Leliana and non-mage warden? An exercise in frustration (and I consider Shale, Oghren as "core" companions during the Deep Roads and Leliana is needed for traps)

[Addai]

It works for a military/ mercenary commander. I hope we go back to having a military role in the next one. It's the only way it really makes sense.

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's what I would prefer. That companions are temporary and would only follow you when it makes sense for them. So they wouldn't be on call all the time and they wouldn't follow everywhere. And they wouldn't join you in just any quest. They should refuse helping you out in things that do not interest them or that conflict with their views.

They can remain around doing their own thing, but I would not want them to follow the PC all the time, even if they live in the same city.

That may be logical, but I doubt would work for a party based RPG.  You'd get a lot of, "What do you mean I can't bring Morrigan/Alistair?" complaints.

I didn't play Mark of the Assassin, but the impression I got is that the Tallis temporary party member was too competant, the player was along for the ride and could not take a valuable scroll from Tallis becuause she wouldn't let him.

I know from my D&D days, one thing that just about every PC could agree was incredible frustrating is when the DMs NPCs outshone the potagonists.  I don't Bioware for erring on the side of caution here.

[Joy Divison]

Bleachrude wrote...

I thought about that myself a while back as my "ultimate RPG" but the problem is that you would have to design the game such that you don't NEED any specific character...

Take DAII for example...If you didn't play mage Champion, the only Healer you got is Anders and on Nightmare, while it is possible to win without him, it makes it much easier with him though I find...

Personal example: In DA:O I can do the Deep Roads on Nightmare EASILY with Mage Warden, Wynne, Morrigan and Alistair.

But doing it with same level Oghren, Shale, Leliana and non-mage warden? An exercise in frustration (and I consider Shale, Oghren as "core" companions during the Deep Roads and Leliana is needed for traps)

No mage for the Deep Roads?  Was there any elfroot left in Fererlden afterward?