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[Kryyptehk]

Monica21 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I'm hesistant to base my games on the original concept, given the fact that Alistair was originally a senior Warden and that is obviously not the case now. If they included a letter from Cailan or something that indicated he WAS going to marry the Empress, than maybe, but just be friendly with her doesn't really scream "infedility" to me. Especially since no one but Loghain brings it up.

I think there was a reason that they left that storyline out, and it is because it doesn't really make any sense. I don't really see a reason for Cailan to spit on his father's good name by marrying the Orlesian Empress unless that would mean he took over Orlais.

When RtO was first released there was quite a bit of speculation about what the letters meant. There was Eamon's plea for Cailan to put Anora aside (I swear I need a macro for typing that), Cailan's formal letter to the Empress, and then the notation about a very informal letter from the Empress mentioning a "permanent alliance." The conclusion by most was "well, that's odd but we can't know what it means." Gaider just confirmed that it did mean what we thought it meant.

And it doesn't make sense, but Cailan didn't do much of anything that made sense during the short time we knew him.

I don't really think Gaider confirmed it, from what I remember, he said that that was the original idea and that Loghain "found out" in the original idea. I think the letters were more of a homage to the original idea.

However! That's just how I interpretted his words and if he did actually say that that is what happened, then of course I concede. But it just doesn't make sense, not for a good king and especially not for a person who strove to be a good king.

[phaonica]

Kryyptehk wrote...

I don't really think Gaider confirmed it, from what I remember, he said that that was the original idea and that Loghain "found out" in the original idea. I think the letters were more of a homage to the original idea.

However! That's just how I interpretted his words and if he did actually say that that is what happened, then of course I concede. But it just doesn't make sense, not for a good king and especially not for a person who strove to be a good king.

I interpreted Gaider's words as meaning that Loghain was originally supposed to find out about the plan before Ostagar, instead he found out during RtO. Not that he only found out in the original idea, but that he still found out, just at a later time.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well I wish we had the option to burry him or burn him without making us look sad about him. Feeding him to wolves, while tempting, is a bit...I don't know. Pointless And I pity wolves. .

The wolves option is the one I chose on my current playthrough mostly because it felt like the best way to return to the body to nature. My PC, being Dalish, didn't care for nobility (much less an idiot like Cailan) but she didn't really view the wolves options as a humilliation. It was closer to an actual Dalish funeral than the pyre option. Besides, the pyre option forces you to acknowledge that he deserves such treatment simply for having royal blood.

Regardless, your PC will look sad both at the funeral and when you first meet Cailan's body. There's no way around it unfortunately.

[KnightofPhoenix]

When asked "Was Cailan going to divorce Anora for Celene", he said "yes" And then whent on to explain the original concept a and how RtO brought back the original concept of marriage but without Celene being in Denerim and Loghain foudng out before Ostagar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Regardless, your PC will look sad both at the funeral and when you first meet Cailan's body. There's no way around it unfortunately.

Feeding him to the wolves then.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except Gaider said that RtO was made based on that original concept, so it is canon.
Oh and welcome back Kryy

Based on, not a duplicate of. As I said, I'm hesitant to believe that, just because it makes no freaking sense. Cailan was all about glory and living up to his father, so why would he undo all his father's work by marrying Celene? Again, unless he was getting Orlais, then I see no good reason for him to marry Celene.

And thank you

Of course it makes no sense. Hence why people like me have been arguing that Cailan is an idiot.

But...but...I made you a banner,,,

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
But...but...I made you a banner,,,

...for me?
And here I thought you knew me too well

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

Besides, the pyre option forces you to acknowledge that he deserves such treatment simply for having royal blood.

Does it, really? As if people who don't have noble blood don't automatically deserve a pyre, but nobles do? Eh, whatever. Honestly, no matter what the dialog actually says, I'll choose what I have to to get the pyre.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
But...but...I made you a banner,,,

...for me?
And here I thought you knew me too well

'Twas only joking, it took me, like, five seconds to make....apparently my joke was too vague

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Besides, the pyre option forces you to acknowledge that he deserves such treatment simply for having royal blood.

Does it, really? As if people who don't have noble blood don't automatically deserve a pyre, but nobles do? Eh, whatever. Honestly, no matter what the dialog actually says, I'll choose what I have to to get the pyre.

Yeah, it says something like 'He was of royal blood, he deserves a pyre.'

[KnightofPhoenix]

I know Kryy. I know

And lol this was an exciting day for the thread wasn't it? lol

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I know Kryy. I know
And lol this was an exciting day for the day wasn't it? lol

Yeah! I'll have to actually listen to the rest of that interview later, hehe.

 

[Zjarcal]

phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Besides, the pyre option forces you to acknowledge that he deserves such treatment simply for having royal blood.

Does it, really? As if people who don't have noble blood don't automatically deserve a pyre, but nobles do? Eh, whatever. Honestly, no matter what the dialog actually says, I'll choose what I have to to get the pyre.

Yeah. Believe me, if that line wasn't there or if it was worded differently, I'd always choose the pyre option. Royal blood or not, a dead person at least deserves for the corpse to be treated with some respect. But that line is so snobby that it really bothers me.

Sure, you can imagine you're saying something else but I still wish it was worded differently.

[Kryyptehk]

Zjarcal wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Besides, the pyre option forces you to acknowledge that he deserves such treatment simply for having royal blood.

Does it, really? As if people who don't have noble blood don't automatically deserve a pyre, but nobles do? Eh, whatever. Honestly, no matter what the dialog actually says, I'll choose what I have to to get the pyre.

Yeah. Believe me, if that line wasn't there or if it was worded differently, I'd always choose the pyre option. Royal blood or not, a dead person at least deserves for the corpse to be treated with some respect. But that line is so snobby that it really bothers me.

Sure, you can imagine you're saying something else but I still wish it was worded differently.

I agree, though the people who did RtO did a poor job overall. That line doesn't really surprise me, especially after Alistair is all "My name is Alistair Theirin, you killed my brother, prepare to die" to the darkspawn. I would expect Alistair to act a little sad about the king dying, but he was rather over the top.

[EnchantedEyes1]

I guess this revelation doesn't come as a surprise to some, but I'm sure it's a helluva shock to most everyone else. I always thought it was kind of odd that Loghain would jump to such a conclusion given the lack of hard evidence that Cailan was going to dump Anora. I think this is what makes the game so intriguing and polarizing - people interpret the same things differently.

I also think this is why things were muddled in my head about Eamon urging Cailan to dump Anora, my mind just made the leap to Celene even though he didn't suggest it. It seems that was all Cailan's brilliance.

I also wondered why Cailan would have asked (his name escapes me at the moment) the member of his vanguard to give the key to Duncan or the Grey Wardens. Why get it to Anora? My mind now makes a leap to the GWs possibly knowing about the burgeoning relationship between Celene and Cailan... Would it benefit the GWs for this union to happen? Yes, I know - my mind is a runaway train.

I've once again realized that Loghain's so-called paranoia once again has a good foundation. His instincts are pretty damn good. I'm not saying he's perfect by any means but the man did not raise to his rank by luck.

Modifié par EnchantedEyes1, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I know Kryy. I know
And lol this was an exciting day for the day wasn't it? lol

Yeah! I'll have to actually listen to the rest of that interview later, hehe.

 

So far, I've gotten that we "it would be fun" to see what Maric's promises to Flemeth were, said in a tone that makes me think he hasn't even thought about it, and that a life-size replica of Hawke's sword would be $1,000, so none for sale.

edit: At the end he talks about player-decision making, and that's interesting. He mentions Harrowmont and how the player should be able to see how making Harrowmon king may not be the best for the dwarves. He also mentions how he hates the "gotcha" decisions, where the player has no idea why something happened based on a choice.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Besides, the pyre option forces you to acknowledge that he deserves such treatment simply for having royal blood.

Does it, really? As if people who don't have noble blood don't automatically deserve a pyre, but nobles do? Eh, whatever. Honestly, no matter what the dialog actually says, I'll choose what I have to to get the pyre.

Yeah. Believe me, if that line wasn't there or if it was worded differently, I'd always choose the pyre option. Royal blood or not, a dead person at least deserves for the corpse to be treated with some respect. But that line is so snobby that it really bothers me.

Sure, you can imagine you're saying something else but I still wish it was worded differently.

I wish it was worded differently, too, but it's just one of those things that the outcome is worth clicking a dialog line that you wouldn't normally... like hardening Alistair.

Kryyptehk wrote...
I agree, though the people who did RtO did a poor job overall. That line doesn't really surprise me, especially after Alistair is all "My name is Alistair Theirin, you killed my brother, prepare to die" to the darkspawn. I would expect Alistair to act a little sad about the king dying, but he was rather over the top.

Yeah, everyone was a little over the top in the area of dialog. Alistair acted like he and Cailan grew up together. And at least once I *really* wanted to tell Loghain to stop being an @ss. Wynne's dialog was TMI, but it actually didn't bother me that much. Maybe it's because I mostly ignore her, anyway.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...
I also wondered why Cailan would have asked (his name escapes me at the moment) the member of his vanguard to give the key to Duncan or the Grey Wardens. Why get it to Anora? My mind now makes a leap to the GWs possibly knowing about the burgeoning relationship between Celene and Cailan... Would it benefit the GWs for this union to happen? Yes, I know - my mind is a runaway train.

It wouldn't surprise me at all. Afterall, the Orlesian Commander is from the imperial court. Surely, there have been some rumours and talks here and there. And I assume that same Orlesian was the one leading the army to Ferelden.

[Kryyptehk]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

I guess this revelation doesn't come as a surprise to some, but I'm sure it's a helluva shock to most everyone else. I always thought it was kind of odd that Loghain would jump to such a conclusion given the lack of hard evidence that Cailan was going to dump Anora. I think this is what makes the game so intriguing and polarizing - people interpret the same things differently.

I also think this is why things were muddled in my head about Eamon urging Cailan to dump Anora, my mind just made the leap to Celene even though he didn't suggest it. It seems that was all Cailan's brilliance.

I also wondered why Cailan would have asked (his name escapes me at the moment) the member of his vanguard to give the key to Duncan or the Grey Wardens. Why not Anora? My mind now makes a leap to the GWs possibly knowing about the burgeoning relationship between Celene and Cailan... Would it benefit the GWs for this union to happen?

I've once again realized that Loghain's so-called paranoia once again has a good foundation. His instincts are pretty damn good. I'm not saying he's perfect by any means but the man did not raise to his rank by luck.

I agree about thinking Loghain was frankly crazy when I first played RtO. Hell, the reason that I was so resistent to the thought of Cailan actually planning to marry Celene (besides the idiocy of it) is because Wynne immediately says he is crazy. With the way he acts and Wynne getting on to him about it, I thought that meant that he was just being weird...apparently not.

I don't think Cailan marrying Celene would benefit the Wardens, given the fact that the Wardens are readily accepted ever since Maric.

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...
Yeah, everyone was a little over the top in the area of dialog. Alistair acted like he and Cailan grew up together. And at least once I *really* wanted to tell Loghain to stop being an @ss. Wynne's dialog was TMI, but it actually didn't bother me that much. Maybe it's because I mostly ignore her, anyway.

I haven't taken Wynne to Ostagar except for my first run-through there, but I'm looking forward to seeing a Loghain smackdown, so she gets to come this time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
I don't think Cailan marrying Celene would benefit the Wardens, given the fact that the Wardens are readily accepted ever since Maric.

Aaah, but in Awakening we learn that the First Warden is planing on expanding Warden political power, blight or no. It is certainly possible that he and Celene reached an agreement. Maybe Ferelden or some of its territories would be ruled by Wardens (rule made legitimate if they went in and defeated the blight). Definately possible.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Kryyptehk]

None of the dialogue bothered me until Alistair's came up. I didn't like that Alistair had lines with Wynne but not with the Warden, who fought beside him at Ostagar and who he oversaw getting Joined (and who potentially was in love with him). After I was done, the whole DLC left a bad taste in my mouth and now I don't even play it. The last time I played it was so I could have Cailan's armor for Awakening.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I don't think Cailan marrying Celene would benefit the Wardens, given the fact that the Wardens are readily accepted ever since Maric.

Aaah, but in Awakening we learn that the First Warden is planing on expanding Warden political power, blight or no. It is certainly possible that he and Celene reached a deal. Maybe Ferelden or some of its territories would be ruled by Wardens (rule made legitimate if they went in and defeated the blight). Definately possible.

I thought the Wardens were not generally rulers? That they served to fight darkspawn, not under any crown? I would think that a Warden controlled country would be rather against their rules. Unless we are talking about Orlesian Wardens, who don't give a crap

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
I thought the Wardens were not generally rulers? That they served to fight darkspawn, not under any crown? I would think that a Warden controlled country would be rather against their rules. Unless we are talking about Orlesian Wardens, who don't give a crap

The Wardens already rule the Anderfels. Riordan and the codexes say as much.
They are not as apolitical as many would believe.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
I thought the Wardens were not generally rulers? That they served to fight darkspawn, not under any crown? I would think that a Warden controlled country would be rather against their rules. Unless we are talking about Orlesian Wardens, who don't give a crap

The Wardens already rule the Anderfels. Riordan and the codexes say as much.
They are not as apolitical as many would believe.

That's what I get for not reading codexes or listening to Riordan. I'll have to not skip his dialogue this time around.