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[Bayz]

Hell according for how Americans reacted on all that "National Healthcare" since the time Clinton wanted to implement it, Westerners don't think the way Westerners do!

Problem I see with democracies is that countries need to go through a transition before being able to apply it. Trying to enforce it in the long run end up forcing military pushs and stuff like that, look at Latin America or Spain\\Portugal, democracy is a huge step from autoritarian regimes, so they need time to settle. In China and everywhere else.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Uhm not really.

The Chinese do not think as westerners do at the end of the day. Certainly there is some opposition to the regime, but the vast majority of the people, even from that class you mention, wouldn't even imagine protesting against the regime.

Still more personal freedoms could happen, but a fully fledged democracy? No ****ing way, and it would be the worst thing China could do right now.

Remember that the protests started over the death of a communist party leader, certainly they escalated but still.

Democracy is seriously overrated as a system.

I wasn't suggesting democracy at all. Liberalization does not automatically lead to democracy. I was indeed referring to the personal freedoms issue, as well as a push for more economic freedom. And I think some desire for differing views to have some level of free expression, as many Chinese have begun to express annoyance at being unable to express displeasure or doubt in some policy or whatever.

This will by no means turn China into a Western "Democracy". It will, havever, make it something entirely different, and no longer communist. hell, in embracing finance and beneficial trade agreements with the west like they have done, you could pretty much say in spirit, 50% of the communist ideal has already bit the dust. And while the Chinese are certainly comfy with a good level of authoritarianism and strong, heavy centralization, they are going to insist the Chinese govornment lighten up in the invasions of private life.

P.S. Where the hell have you been until yesterday? You just went MIA.

On a classified mission from the C.I.A. to spray the world's pop[ulation with new and improved epic stupid, as 2011 did not meet state department and intellegence agency quotas for epic fail sh*t.

Or, on all seriousness, I have been ambushed and violated by real life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think "western values" is an anachronistic term. Latin America, India, South Africa, Eastern Europe, Far East and southeast Asia are not western, but have a rather large degree of political liberalism regardless.

A desire for personal freedoms seems to be universal (in what form they come or how they are argued for and articulated is another matter. Liberalism as an ideology is certainly Western in origin, but personal freedoms are not). Especially so for educated middle class.

But there is a big difference between liberal and democratic as Skadi mentionned. The former is about "negative rights" (what protects you from others, government included). The latter is about "positive rights" (political participation and an active say in decision making). The two can, and now often coexist, but they do not require each other. I think China will lean towards political liberalism more, without necessarily taking the democratic route.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 décembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Bayz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think "western values" is an anachronistic term. Latin America, India, South Africa, Eastern Europe, Far East and southeast Asia are not western, but have a rather large degree of political liberalism regardless.

A desire for personal freedoms seems to be universal (in what form they come or how they are argued for and articulated is another matter. Liberalism as an ideology is certainly Western in origin, but personal freedoms are not). Especially so for educated middle class.

But there is a big difference between liberal and democratic as Skadi mentionned. The former is about "negative rights" (what protects you from others, government included). The latter is about "positive rights" (political participation and an active say in decision making). The two can, and now often coexist, but they do not require each other. I think China will lean towards political liberalism more, without necessarily taking the democratic route.

Very good post sir, and I stand educated. I like the positive rights/negative right terms, if they are coined by you, would you mind me using them?

As a whole I tend to be from the people who mixes together "Liberalism", with "Libertarian" even though Libertarian is more about just economic freedom and limiting the state's hand on it, am I right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bayz wrote...
Very good post sir, and I stand educated. I like the positive rights/negative right terms, if they are coined by you, would you mind me using them?

It's Isaiah Berlin who did, in "Two Concepts of Liberty" IIRC.

As a whole I tend to be from the people who mixes together "Liberalism", with "Libertarian" even though Libertarian is more about just economic freedom and limiting the state's hand on it, am I right?

'Liberalism" means a lot of, often contradictory, things these days. "Leftists" are considered more "liberal" in Canada and the USA, whereas in France the "right" is considered liberal (Sarkozy was often criticized for being "ultra-liberal). Even though Sarkozy would be more in line with USA's and Canada's "conservatives".

A lot of people, in Canada at least, view social security and a wellfare state as very liberal, even though it contradicts classical liberalism.

So I tend to have a minimalist definition of liberalism (more or less classical liberalism), and try to avoid confusing it with progressivism (another very loaded term).
classic liberalism and libertarianism are indeed virtually the same when it comes to economics especially.
But libertarians are usually socially progressive (they would not mind homosexual marriage, whereas classical liberals might be socially conservative)

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[Bayz]

Thanks for the clarification:) I guess it is one of those times when terms get mixed whith the cultures that use them, like socialist meaning communist at the western side of the pond while here socialist is more social-liberal kind of thingy...

Another thing that always claimed my attention is how conservative both American parties happen to be seen here, while Canada tends to be perceived as more leftist as a whole in an European point of view...and then when I read about Canadian politics they tend to be quite conservative in many things.

I remember more than ten years ago having a discussion with a canadian couple that had their summer break next to us, because she was upset the canadian government was starting to ponder the possibility of giving the right to vote to the native americans that were still living within Canadian Territory...it shocked me a lot, and still does even now...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's Isaiah Berlin who did, in "Two Concepts of Liberty" IIRC.

Will look it up...need to see if I can find it on amazon.

Modifié par Bayz, 17 décembre 2011 - 07:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bayz wrote...

I remember more than ten years ago having a discussion with a canadian couple that had their summer break next to us, because she was upset the canadian government was starting to ponder the possibility of giving the right to vote to the native americans that were still living within Canadian Territory...it shocked me a lot, and still does even now...

That is shocking.
Then again, I've only been to Montreal, a very cosmopolitan city. It's possible that Canadians elsewhere could hold such....weird ideas.

[Bayz]

Ahh ok. I don't know I mean this was in the 90's, 20 years had passed since so I'm guessing the law has been passed already.

I was just shocked because, as I understand, the US extended citizenship to native americans living in US territory before 1900s (I might be wrong with the dates) and Canada which seemed more open was still struggling with it socially.

Then again 20 years are a long time...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cool video

It's in Egypt. The army scared off the protestors at first, but then like idiots starting beating up women who stood their ground and didn't run, which prompted the men to go back and chase the corwards away.

I am not a fan of revolutions in general, but I do not tolerate oppressive incompetent and corrupt regimes and I admire bravery when warranted.

So the vid gave me chills.

[Costin_Razvan]

So the women stood their ground and the men ran like cowards? "Laughs"

Sounds like what would happen here. I think the military had enough of those idiots though, and I really can't blame them.

I am curios what's going to happen now in North Korea though, more so then the revolutions.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 décembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The military are the bigger idiots for giving them reason to do all this in the first place. I can't blame the people for wanting them removed, they've been plunging the country to oblivion since the 1950s with an increasing lack of subtelty.

And I hope that the North Korean regime collapses in inner struggle, as signs of that seem to be appearing. But I don't think it's that likely sadly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 décembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You advocate for tens of thousands of people dying for what ultimately will be nothing except superficial bull**** as I told you once?

Nothing will really change, someone will still rule the country from the shadows and pull all the strings, the question is who? For my country the people ruling it from the shadows are big businessmen from Europe, so in a way it was good for us....except that we became a puppet for NATO and the EU.

The only thing I hope for North Korea is that the leader's son proves to be a good leader. He's young, has lived years in Switzerland and seems to have some potential to him. We'll see where that leads him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If that means having the slightest chance of saving the country from stagnation by an idiotic regime that has done nothing but destroy the country and its society, then yes.

Leadership will always be there and be necessary, but the differences would not be superficial even if it won't be as rosy as many of these people would hope. If there is a chance to get better leadership, then I see chaos as a better alternative than a slow stagnating death and a prolonging of the inevitable (destruction). I might still regard the revolutionaries as naive, foolish and with no clear leadership and plan, but I still think what they did was convenient and better than nothing.

Egypt now is already a puppet of the US and the Gulf and an incompetent corrupt military. Weak countries like that have to be influenced by outside actors, same with Romania. The trick is to make the most of it and use the money provided for something constructive. That's the difference between them and countries like Korea and Japan in the 1950s or like Israel.
But I don't buy this dichotomy of "either the country will be a puppet to domestic actors or foreign ones." Countries with efficient governments, even when weak, can emerge to become respectable developing countries outside influence notwithstanding.

If the new Kim fails to be a good leader, I hopea the regime collapses and the Korea peninsula unifies at last. But that's not likely to happen with China nearby.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 décembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Do you really see anyone in Egypt having the wisdom to rule Egypt well? I mean I would agree with you but I just don't see anyone there being the capable ruler that Egypt needs.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 décembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Baradei is not bad. But it won't be up to individuals, rather groups.

Now no, I don't see anyone spectacular as of yet. But no one can just wait for a great leader to show up before doing anything (besides, these kind of people need the proper environment to show up and chaos often invites genius). They'll just have to learn through trial and error, and they will make plenty of mistakes. But hopefully the people now showed that they will no longer be silent when mistakes are made, which is good.

Do I think that there are people and groups that can rule Egypt at least better than the military that demonstrated its bad leadership for more than 50 years? Yes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 décembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The military won't go down without a fight though, and that fight will severely hurt Egypt.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think a big fight could be avoided, like in Latin America, though there is a big risk of that happening yes.

I think the civilian branch can entice younger military commanders, as opposed to the old guards, to respect their boundaries for the good of the nation.

I am not a big fan of the Muslim brotherhood, but that seems to be their strategy. At least I hope it is.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well if there is anyone in that country who could rule it well it would be well. tell me something though, why the hell do most arabs care so much about Palestine?

As for North Korea, talking about chances, I think it's a really good thing that for once in our entire ****ing generation we have a young man at the head a nation. Certainly he might become a puppet for the Old Guard, like Bashar did, but still there's a good chance he might not, and in the end young men have times lead their nations to greatness ( Alexander, Napoleon, Temujin, Augustus and the list goes on ).

One of the closest family friends of the north korean leaders, a chef, quoted him as saying "We live everyday like a holiday, but what of the normal people? How do they live?"

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 décembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well if there is anyone in that country who could rule it well it would be well. tell me something though, why the hell do most arabs care so much about Palestine?

Regimes don't give a ****. The people?
Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam and what happened after 1948 is a complete national humiliation. That plus the Israelis did not conduct themselves well with regards to occupied territories.

Of course they have to care about it, though sadly anger clouds their judgement.

One of the closest family friends of the north korean leaders, a chef, quoted him as saying "We live everyday like a holiday, but what of the normal people? How do they live?"

Heard it in al-Jazeera. Hopefully he is both genuine and capable, but I kind of doubt it. Regimes like that can only be reformed if purged from within or without.

[applehug]

The only ways I see the Kim line ending is a military coup. And because of the new Kims age and asian culture's importance put on age it's a very high possibility we could see some sort of transer of power to the military.

[CalJones]

I've read that Kim Jr is even crazier than his dear old dad. Doesn't bode well. Still, it's been a bad year for bogeymen - Bin Laden, Gaddafi and now Dear Leader - quite the hat trick. Now we just need to hope that Mugabi pops his clogs.

[Costin_Razvan]

CalJones, don't trust that bull****. We just don't know much about him. It should be mentioned his classmates from Switzerland, those that were close to him anyway, had a good opinion of him, as did that chef who deserted North Korea ( the one who said he should be the only one to lead ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:40 .

[Joy Divison]

Ahh crap. Go away for a few weeks and miss a multiple page discussion on what you've spent several lifetimes studying.

That will teach me.

[Zjarcal]

So, I just finished TW2 finally (on Iorveth's path).

Epic game was epic (despite a few issues). Letho lives in my game btw... honestly, killing him would've actually felt anti-climatic.

As an aside, Iorveth is f***in awesome! 

(yes, I used that smiley)

Modifié par Zjarcal, 21 décembre 2011 - 07:54 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cool video

It's in Egypt. The army scared off the protestors at first, but then like idiots starting beating up women who stood their ground and didn't run, which prompted the men to go back and chase the corwards away.

I am not a fan of revolutions in general, but I do not tolerate oppressive incompetent and corrupt regimes and I admire bravery when warranted.

So the vid gave me chills.

You and me both.

I also got chills. It's funny, in most cultures, women are regarded as weak and cowardly, yet the opposite is true. Anyone can take on armed men with guns and grenades, but it takes real balls and grit to face an armed, powerful enemy, unarmed, and holding your ground. Nice to see these ladies showing the boys how it's really done.

And I agree with you on everything else you said. While revolutions don't impress me in general, I can't blame the people of Egypt. Like you said, they are frustrated, running out of patience with these corrupt, dumb ass regimes that keep driving their countries backwards and down. When they see no hope for the future with the current options, what else are people going to do? They are angry, frustrated, and tired of the shyte.

And as you said, it is the fault of the regime and powers that rule for allowing things to get to this stage, where people are finding they have less and less to lose or look forward to.