12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this is true. I'd rather play as him over say Shepard, the brutish overglorified tool regardless of how you rp him/ her. I don't even need to mention Hawke.

Of course I'd rather have Thorton over all of them.

I understand that. But as Shepard I have several options. Playing as a WOMAN. Not being forced into ONE romance or none at all. And my Fem Shep sure ain't brutish OR a tool. Ahem.

And Geralt never struck me as the brightest bulb on the chandelier, no offense. (I still love him though....)

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Let's just say I strongly despise everything DA2 stands for with it's political correct, non-swearing unrealistic characters.

A tiny bit excessive, no?

Sorry Perse

No need. I'll live.

If the abscence of swearing or PC was the the worst insult one may hurl at DAII, I'd be happy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
I understand that. But as Shepard I have several options. Playing as a WOMAN. Not being forced into ONE romance or none at all. And my Fem Shep sure ain't brutish OR a tool. Ahem.

See, gender never mattered to me. I can understand it mattering for other people definitely. But gender doens't change what the character ultimately is.

And your fem shep is a brute and a tool, sorry. Just like mine. Not once did Shepard use his / her brain, always asking idiotic questions and solving everything with bullets, while everyone else is stupid enough to admire him / her for some reason, even spending billions to revive him / her for no apparent reason (yes, TIM is an idiot, I admit that now).

EDIT: to be fair, Shepard in ME1 was slightly better.

And Geralt never struck me as the brightest bulb on the chandelier, no offense. (I still love him though....)

He is not the brightest for sure. But at least I hear him occasionally being smart, knowledgeable and wise. Refer to the debate with the scientist, his words of wisdom to Zyvik or his vast knowledge on curses and monsters....etc At least he can use his brain and knows what the hell is going on.

Shepard is always "Doi, what is happen? Nevermind, I'll just shoot everything"

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Let's just say I strongly despise everything DA2 stands for with it's political correct, non-swearing unrealistic characters.

A tiny bit excessive, no?

Sorry Perse

When Roche enters that tent and sees everything he once loved, fought and bled for dead, his family as it was, his reaction is just amazing. "I'll kill the ****sons, evey last one."

You can feel the hatred, the despair, tne anguish and the desire for revenge in his voce in that one simple line of his. Bioware has squat on that, and that is just ONE situation of many in the WItcher.

The whole gender thing matters squat to me.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
When Roche enters that tent and sees everything he once loved, fought and bled for dead, his family as it was, his reaction is just amazing. "I'll kill the ****sons, evey last one."

You can feel the hatred, the despair, tne anguish and the desire for revenge in his voce in that one simple line of his. Bioware has squat on that, and that is just ONE situation of many in the WItcher.

You know I agree. But the wording might have been too aggressive. But that might be Canada affecting me after all these years...

I personally never believed DA2 was a bad game. I always thought and still think it's mediocre and it gets on my nerves.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And your fem shep is a brute and a tool, sorry. Just like mine. Not once did Shepard use his / her brain, always asking idiotic questions and solving everything with bullets, while everyone else is stupid enough to admire him / her for some reason, even spending bilions to revive him / her for no apparent reason (yes, TIM is an idiot, I admit that now).

Shepard is always "Doi, what is happen? Nevermind, I'll just shoot everything"

There are several missions you can solve without shooting everything. Never mind his/her influence on those who follow him/her.

Well, defeating Sovereign and all that sure is a reason in my book. IMHO Geralt and Shep are pretty equal in the smarts department. (And Triss is smarter than both of them. TW1 Triss, mind you, not the bimbo using her name in TW2....)

[Costin_Razvan]

You know I agree. But the wording might have been too aggressive. But that might be Canada affecting me after all these years...

I personally never believed DA2 was a bad game. I always thought and still think it's mediocre and it gets on my nerves.

Even aggressive Thorton, the tool that he is, is a hell lot better then the spit that Shepard/Hawke are made from.

Hell Mass Effect's only saving grace is that it has a rather unique universe for an RPG. I wish I could say I care for my Shepard, and after all the time I've spent playing my male one I can safely say I do...but I care about Zaeed, Tali and Garrus a whole bloody lot more.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
There are several missions you can solve without shooting everything. Never mind his/her influence on those who follow him/her.

Well, defeating Sovereign and all that sure is a reason in my book. IMHO Geralt and Shep are pretty equal in the smarts department. (And Triss is smarter than both of them. TW1 Triss, mind you, not the bimbo using her name in TW2....)

In ME2? Not a single one (other than those where you are forced not to, and even then Shepard doesn't do much that requires high IQ). In ME1, I can think of two.

Defeating Sovereign has little to do with Shepard somehow being the only available  "leader" for mankind. Not to mention that it's the fleet that defeated Sovereign. As for the influence on companions, also based on almost nothing. Whatever Shepard does and no matter how much of an ass he is (he can go as far as to yell at them and threaten to crush them under his heel (wtf...) and that somehow makes Tali and Legion BFFs), the companions will blindly follow. There is only one exception and that's Zaeed.

Shepard is no where near as intelligent as Geralt. The game certainly never showed it. Geralt is shown with more skill, more wisdom, more knowledge and more intelligence. There is not a single quote from Shepard that made me pause and go "that's deep." Geralt did that to me several times.

And yea Triss is smarter. Letho is smarter. Radovid is smarter. Doesn't change the fact that Geralt is smart.
Unlike Shepard, Geralt lives in a universe where competent and intelligent people exist in abundance (something Bioware always fails to create).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:17 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Geralt "persuading" the peasants of the Outskirts to let Abigail be is more badass and interesting then anything Shepard does.

Of course he doesn't match the likes of Philipa. With most RPGs I feel I punch myself in the foot when I take a choice, because I know if I choose differently I will feel I did a stupid thing, for the Witcher games that doesn't happen. Even when I talk about the Scoia'Tel, whom I hate.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Geralt "persuading" the peasants of the Outskirts to let Abigail be is more badass and interesting then anything Shepard does.

Of course he doesn't match the likes of Philipa.

Him convincing a godamn scientist that he is wrong (with actual arguments and not sentimentalist crap) is more badass than anything Shepard does.
What he says to Zyvik about human "progress" is very interesting and in a lot of ways, very true.
Paraphrasing - Zyvik: Where is humanity headed?
Geralt: Forward. Blindly.

He said more of course. I thought that was deep coming from a protagonist. Shepard? I really can't remember a single thing he / she said that I thought was remotely intelligent or insightful.

Philippa is only matched by Radovid in the North. Maybe Letho, but he was fortunate enough to deal with Sile instead.

[Costin_Razvan]

 

Him convincing a godamn scientist that he is wrong (with actual arguments and not sentimentalist crap) is more badass than anything Shepard does.  

Hmm, where was that? I forgot about it.

www.youtube.com/watch - The Abigail scene remains very memorable to me heh.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 

Him convincing a godamn scientist that he is wrong (with actual arguments and not sentimentalist crap) is more badass than anything Shepard does.  

Hmm, where was that? I forgot about it.

Act 3, in a blacksmith of sorts IIRC. Completely optional and very easy to miss.

The gist of it is that there is a scientist who believes that Kalkstein is full of crap. Geralt can defend Kalkstein's theory in quite a long argument and can convince the scientist that he is wrong about the alchemist (he can also fail if you pick the bad arguments).

That was just badass. It would have been annoying as hell if Geralt managed to convince him only via charm and no substance, but he actually gives arguments and sounds like he knows what the hell he is talking about.

[Costin_Razvan]

The Order blacksmith?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Don't think so. It's in the market quarter.

[Fiery Knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And your fem shep is a brute and a tool, sorry. Just like mine. Not once did Shepard use his / her brain, always asking idiotic questions and solving everything with bullets, while everyone else is stupid enough to admire him / her for some reason, even spending billions to revive him / her for no apparent reason (yes, TIM is an idiot, I admit that now).

EDIT: to be fair, Shepard in ME1 was slightly better.

Shepard is always "Doi, what is happen? Nevermind, I'll just shoot everything"

Sorry, was lurking through threads and saw you post this and was just wondering if you could elaborate why you think what you said about Shepard?

B/c in my opinion, Shepard isn't close to even be compared to Hawke. There are quite a lot of quets where you can simply talk you way through without a fight. He shows that he is smart enough to talk through a man who is pointing a gun at a hostage without having to kill that man. He has shows that he is smart enough to handle when things go wrong, getting people to settle down, e.g Tali and Legion. And BTW, where did they become friends when Shepard calms them down? I never saw them laugh/chat or even act together as such. That's b/c thet got become friends ever in the game. She only torrelates Legion, nothing more.

I can't see why someone would call Shepard "stupid" for him asking questions. In fact, it's often only if you as a player ask questions. Through that view, I could also say Geralt is stupid for going around asking questions. Doesn't really have a point, does it? Shepard has shown to be quite smart for a human who has recently come to space (sort of). He knows about the Quarian/Geth incident, he knows about asari and their potential in bitoics, he knows what Protheas are and even Collectors, who quite many in fact never heard about. And there's more he knews. Of course, a lot of that depends how you role play. That why there are questions. If you or you as a player don't know what, e.g the Collectors are, you can ask, "what are they?". Doesn't make him stupid for that.

And really, about that "solving with bullets argument, it's usually the enemy that starts shooting first. You can't really start saying then that "Please stop shooting, let me use my brain".
------------------------------------------------------------

Not trying to attack you or anything, just being curious:)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hawke_12 wrote...
B/c in my opinion, Shepard isn't close to even be compared to Hawke. There are quite a lot of quets where you can simply talk you way through without a fight.

In ME1, I can think of two. In ME2, none except those where you are forced to do it non-violently and where Shepard doesn't display any impressive skill.

He shows that he is smart enough to talk through a man who is pointing a gun at a hostage without having to kill that man.

Not intelligence, but rather charm if he is consistently paragon, or he shoots the hostage or shoots the gun. Don't really see intelligence being used.

He has shows that he is smart enough to handle when things go wrong, getting people to settle down, e.g Tali and Legion.

Nothing to do with intelligence, but how paragon / renegade he is (the renegade one is especially absurd). A pragmatic Shepard who doens't act like a constant ass or a constant doufous can potentially get screwed as usual.

I can't see why someone would call Shepard "stupid" for him asking questions. In fact, it's often only if you as a player ask questions. Through that view, I could also say Geralt is stupid for going around asking questions.

Stupid questions, like constantly asking the same thing, not listening to what the others are saying (being paragon with Mordin comes to mind) and displaying very little amount of knowledge, with a mix of idiotic remarks in between.

He knows about the Quarian/Geth incident, he knows about asari and their potential in bitoics, he knows what Protheas are and even Collectors, who quite many in fact never heard about. And there's more he knews. Of course, a lot of that depends how you role play. That why there are questions. If you or you as a player don't know what, e.g the Collectors are, you can ask, "what are they?". Doesn't make him stupid for that.

Basic knowledge that everyone knows. There is nothing particular that he knows about or specializes in and he never gets to teach or inform others, as they all happen to know what he knows.

Sure, I can skip all the investigate options and *pretend* my Shepard knows everything. Still wouldn't change the fact that there is not a single instance that I can remember where Shepard displays intelligence, pro-activity, understanding, wisdom or skill other than killing and persuasion (done badly when compared to Deus Ex) that is dependent on the idiotic bipolar system of R/P.

And really, about that "solving with bullets argument, it's usually the enemy that starts shooting first. You can't really start saying then that "Please stop shooting, let me use my brain".

Of course, a protagonist can only be as good as the game he / she is in and the game is designed to be a constant corridor massacre with little IQ involved. KOTOR had lots of puzzles and situations where Revan can be intelligent and cunning (Korriban comes to mind). A lot of situations required thinking like 2 murder investigations as well. Mass Effect? Nothing.

[Persephone]

.........

Alright then. ME has nothing to offer....

I need to wrap my tiny brain around that one first, KOP, because IMHO it offered far more than endless killing.

Some "small" moments I loved:

Sticking up for the persecuted Quarian on the Citadel. (Love that moment as a whole)

Thane's loyalty mission. Can be done without a single shot being fired. Having lost my mother myself and knowing the "Dad is constantly away on business" scenario first hand really made me appreciate Shep's actions there.

The conclusion of Garrus' loyalty mission. Bloody powerful and bloody proactive if you decide to save Sidonis. No violence involved.

Etc.

I love the ME series to pieces, I admit it. I have ME3 on a months old pre-order.

As for Shep versus Geralt...

Geralt knows pretty little about his own trade at the beginning of TW1.... (Amnesia....ok....oldest cliché EVER) He is often manipulated, fooled and misled. I love him BECAUSE not DESPITE of that, being flawed makes him...human....er...no pun intended there.

He is dragged into a war as a pet talisman of a king fighting his mistress' family at the beginning of TW2, c'mooooooooon! 

Anyway.... you have become disillusioned with games you enjoyed once something better came along.

I wonder which game will disillusion you re: TW series. Honestly, I'm not snarking you there. Sure, our tastes evolve. But your scorn for pretty much any Bioware game now makes me wonder. I mean....this is the Bioware Social Network after all.

Anyway, both you and Costin have provided excellent discussions here and in other threads and I wouldn't want that to end. The constant belittling kinda overshadows that now and yeah, seeing my friends tear apart what I consider to be top fave games (Flawed, yes, but still goddam good) of mine breaks my heart a little.

Go ahead, call me a sentimental sap. 

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 

Him convincing a godamn scientist that he is wrong (with actual arguments and not sentimentalist crap) is more badass than anything Shepard does.  

Hmm, where was that? I forgot about it.

Act 3, in a blacksmith of sorts IIRC. Completely optional and very easy to miss.

The gist of it is that there is a scientist who believes that Kalkstein is full of crap. Geralt can defend Kalkstein's theory in quite a long argument and can convince the scientist that he is wrong about the alchemist (he can also fail if you pick the bad arguments).

That was just badass. It would have been annoying as hell if Geralt managed to convince him only via charm and no substance, but he actually gives arguments and sounds like he knows what the hell he is talking about.

Great, now I'll have to play it again. Darn details!!

[blothulfur]

That smithy: Go right towards the temple quarter gates when exiting Triss's house, it's on your right half way up the incline (before the vampiresses brothel) with a poster to one side of its door. You will need to have read Kalksteins book to initiate the argument.

[tklivory]

Persephone wrote...
Great, now I'll have to play it again. Darn details!!

Yeah, silly little details!

*Loves replaying games I love*

I usually indulge in replaying Witcher 1 and Betrayal at Krondor in january... Hmmm...  Lookin' forward to it now! 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Alright then. ME has nothing to offer....

Where did I say that?
I said, the game does not offer moments where Shepard displays intelligence. He / she is the typical killing machine hero.

The conclusion of Garrus' loyalty mission. Bloody powerful and bloody proactive if you decide to save Sidonis. No violence involved.

The entire mission was violence. That last choice does not remove the violence.

Geralt knows pretty little about his own trade at the beginning of TW1.... (Amnesia....ok....oldest cliché EVER) He is often manipulated, fooled and misled. I love him BECAUSE not DESPITE of that, being flawed makes him...human....er...no pun intended there.

Yes because I implied that I want a perfect protagonist.
And when is Geralt manipulated? Sure Triss keeps secrets from him, but what did she do to manipulate him in TW1? The fact that she becomes advisor?
Triss had nothing to do with Geralt fighting Jacques, she didn't manipulate him into doing anything, she took advantage of a void caused in Temeria's court.

You said it, amnesia (couldn't care less if it's cliched). By TW2, Geralt knows his trade and doesn't need people to tell him what to do.

And like I said earlier, Geralt lives in a world where intelligent and competent people exist. Bioware fails utterly at creating such a universe. So when Geralt gets outclassed by someone like Letho, I like it, because Letho is shown to be smart.  Shepard usually deals with idiots while being an idiot.

Anyway.... you have become disillusioned with games you enjoyed once something better came along.

I wonder which game will disillusion you re: TW series. Honestly, I'm not snarking you there. Sure, our tastes evolve. But your scorn for pretty much any Bioware game now makes me wonder. I mean....this is the Bioware Social Network after all.

There is no scorn, it's criticism. Yes, other games showed me that what I want from a game is possible to achieve (TW1 and 2, but also Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex). I was under the false impression that Bioware held the monopoly on storytelling games, until I found out that others can not only rival it, but surpass it by leagues as far as my interests are concerned.

But I still say that ME1 and ME2 are good games, and I played them recently and still enjoyed them. I don't say they are mediocre like DA2 and despite their annoying elements, they never grate on my nerves quite like DA2. My opinion of them decreased, for perfectly clear reasons, just like my opinion of DA:O decreased when once it was my favorite game. But I still like them.

I am only here because of friends, Bioware has nothing to do with me being here and that's the only thread I am active in

EDIT: ok I am remembering moments in ME1 when Shepard was not that bad, like in Noveria. There were a few moments where Shepard can use his brain. Sadly ME2 took it all away.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 janvier 2012 - 07:53 .

[tklivory]

Hmmm... The discussion (as always) is interesting here, and I wanted to bring up a couple of points in a general way rather than in a specific-game-context.

1) NPC sophistication: I'm not talking just AI, here but, as KoP stated, 'intelligent and competent' people. The whole concept of allowing the PC to be the 'awesomest awesomesauce evar' viewpoint in modern gaming usually presents smart companions. Aside from The Witcher, what other games have y'all played that actually has smart companions? For all its hokiness in other ways, FFX comes to mind for *some* of the companions *all right, Auron* but I'm blanking on others...

2) Replayability - what counts more for replayability, gameplay, story, nostalgia, or *dangit you need a combo of all the above*? I love Betrayal at Krondor for both, but still play FF7 occasionally because of the strange, convoluted story and the nostalgia factor. *shrug* What do y'all look for if you decide to go back and replay a game? (And yes, I *do* still replay Zork, why do you ask?)

Modifié par tklivory, 04 janvier 2012 - 08:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Not just companions, but NPCs as well.

I mean what the hell are Udina, the Council, Anderson, Saren, the Reapers and TIM compared to Radovid, Henselt, Nilfgaard, Shilard, Letho, Philippa Eilhart and the Lodge?
Yaevin, Siegfried, Roche, Iorveth and even Zoltan are leaders (and we actually see them in that capacity). Which Bioware companion acts remotely like a leader in front of "awesomeshep"?
The big exception that I can think of is Wrex in ME2, the only thing I really really loved about the game. Potentially Garrus and Miranda in the Suicide Mission, but only in that instant.

Alistair was changed because Gaider thought he was "too manly" that it compromised the Warden's leadership....now fortunately Alistair is actually interesting so I could tolerate him, but what Gaider said speaks volume. Their mantra is pretty clear, they think they need to put down everyone else to give us the illusion that the PC is important and competent.

TW does the exact opposite. It makes most major characters intelligent, competent and reasonable and throws Geralt in a world where he could get killed simply for annoying Iorveth. While he was instrumental at the battle of Vergen, it was not Geralt who won the day at the end, it was Iorveth. That's the diffrerence between the two mantras and for me it's the latter that wins out easily.

EDIT: which is why Bioware's whole companion formula is losing my interest. I think it needs serious innovation (one thing I like about ME3 is what they are seemingly doing with it), or it needs to be scrapped. Since I'd prefer different types of games I can enjoy, I prefer if the former happens.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 janvier 2012 - 08:19 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Speaking about ME, it was one thing I did like. Zaeed is portrayed as one of the best damned mercs out there, Wrex as well, Garrus manages to ****** everyone off on Omega, Tali leads missions deep into Geth space, Legion spends two years tracking down that one Reaper and finds it in the end, Thane/ sneaks through a heavily defended building almost without being noticed, Liara manages to form a strong information network and even before in ME1 was an expert on the Protheans.

Yes there are issues with many of them, like say Kaidan, Ashley, Boobass Lawson, Samara, Jack, Grunt etc. but most certainly better then DA:O, DA:A and DA2. The irony is that DA doesn't have any morality system and yet Shepard comes off as vastly more intelligent and capable then the Warden and Hawke do, and the ME have by far more interesting choices then most in the DA games. ( The Rachni, Virmire, The Council, The Human Councilor, Tali's Quest, Zaeed's Quest, Legions quest - oh so very much this! - and so much more ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 janvier 2012 - 08:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Speaking about ME, it was one thing I did like. Zaeed is portrayed as one of the best damned mercs out there, Wrex as well, Garrus manages to ****** everyone off on Omega, Tali leads missions deep into Geth space, Legion spends two years tracking down that one Reaper and finds it in the end, Thane/ sneaks through a heavily defended building almost without being noticed, Liara manages to form a strong information network and even before in ME1 was an expert on the Protheans.

But once they join Shepard, they are eclypsed. Not to mention that I do not see why Thane would in any way be useful in the Suicide Mission. I felt he was a waste of a character. Zaeed, while a badass, comes off as a reckless lunatic, though I do like that it takes some effort to get his loyalty if you mess up his revenge. 
The only companion that does something plot relevant is Mordin. 

Oh and Tali is a terrible unit commander. She lost her team not once, but twice. 

Yes there are issues with many of them, like say Kaidan, Ashley, Boobass Lawson, Samara, Jack, Grunt etc. but most certainly better then DA:O, DA:A and DA2. The irony is that DA doesn't have any morality system and yet Shepard comes off as vastly more intelligent and capable then the Warden and Hawke do, and the ME have by far more interesting choices then most in the DA games. ( The Rachni, Virmire, The Council, The Human Councilor, Tali's Quest, Zaeed's Quest, Legions quest - oh so very much this! - and so much more ).

I strongly disagree, I felt the Warden was more capable and could display some intelligence and long term planning that ME never allowed us to do. I felt DA NPCs (barring DA2) were more tolerable than ME ones (Udina and the council are a joke for instance, while Eamon and Anora are not). And I found choices in DA:O and DA:A more interesting than ME ones. I always found Orzammar, Ferelden, the Urn, the Dalish, Amaranthine and the Architect vastly more interesting than most choices in ME.

And in terms of companions challenging the PC, no one comes close to Sten, who literally keeps mocking you at the very beginning.

DA:O and A are flawed, but for me they are still better than ME1 and 2.