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[tklivory]

The main reason I glom onto DA:O is, admittedly, the *breadth* of the dialogue (the sheer number of lines, and the number of options for some conversations.) I loved some aspects of ME1 (haven't played 2 yet, don't hit me!) concerning the decision making (The Rachni, Virmire) but felt some of the other 'choices' were kinda... well... empty, (like the Council choice, in a way, which i felt didn't have *nearly* the emotional impact of the Rachni decision). Maybe by the time you have to save the Council, it's a little too much of 'ok another important decision, whee'.

Although I didn't feel that when I reached the decision about Loghain. That still felt important.

(Yes! on topic comment! Woot!)

[Bjond]

The one thing that makes DA:O characters stand out over other RPG characters is that they will actually joke around with you and they like joking around (some of them).  Even the bit-players do it; for instance the side-quest for the collective to stop the "blood-mage" hunters who start laughing at you when you tell them you're there to stop them.  Then halt and blurt, "Wait ... You're serious!?"

BTW, I disagree with the original author about Loghaine being deep.  I wouldn't consider a character deep unless it's full of unexpected and surprising complexity.  In DA:O, his entire motivation and story is immediately and painfully obvious.  He has literally zero surprises.  He's a stereotypical scarred-by-childhood-trauma paranoid megalomaniac.  His story has been beat to death a thousand times over.  Yawn.

Personally, I thought Sten showed a lot more originality and depth than Loghaine.

----

BTW, I never got much attached to any of the ME1 chars.  They all had detailed enough backstories.  I suspect it was the lack of memorable random party banter.  I simply don't recally any random party banter at all in ME.  It has been a few years since I played it, though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tklivory wrote...

The main reason I glom onto DA:O is, admittedly, the *breadth* of the dialogue

Yea, that's one of the major reasons what makes DA:O feel like such a journey / experience for me (as opposed to a story perse, its plot is weak). The strength of the companions' *characters* (their role however is weak) and their complexity.  NPCs as well. 
Loghain as well. Without him, the main plot would have been ridiculous.

Also the atmosphere and the sheer amount of dialogue that made Ferelden feel alive to me (convos like that with Genitivi or Sister Petrine, or the Shaper). Something I never felt in ME.

[tklivory]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tklivory wrote...

The main reason I glom onto DA:O is, admittedly, the *breadth* of the dialogue

Yea, that's one of the major reasons what makes DA:O feel like such a journey / experience for me (as opposed to a story perse, its plot is weak). The strength of the companions' *characters* (their role however is weak) and their complexity.  NPCs as well. 
Loghain as well. Without him, the main plot would have been ridiculous.

Also the atmosphere and the sheer amount of dialogue that made Ferelden feel alive to me (convos like that with Genitivi or Sister Petrine, or the Shaper). Something I never felt in ME.

I've never really liked the dialogue wheel, even in ME1.  (my first exposure to it).  I didn't like that the words in the wheel weren't what my character said, I didn't like being limited to 'renegade', 'neutral' and 'paragon' choices (with a few exceptions to dig for info.)  I didn't *hate* it, mind, and got used to it over time, but I've only played Mass Effect through once or twice.  DA:O, well, I've played a lot more than that.

This article really was an eye opener for me.  I still intend to play DA2 - if nothing else, because I do believe that enjoyment is found where one finds it (speaking as a FF8 devotee) and too many people like DA2 for me to not enjoy it at all.  But the difference in the amount of dialogue as stipulated in the article did disappoint me a bit.

As bug-ridden as DA:O's dialogue was (especially in the End), I loved the consequences.  I approved (heh) of the fact you can tick people off so badly they leave, or attack you, or break up with you.  The parts of ME1 I loved the best were the consequences (as I mentioned before).

The *plot* is basic but the *writing* is scrumptious... not surprising for High Fantasy.  I'll forgive a basic plot if the journey is fun (i.e., good writing and thorough setting to keep me entertained), but I have a harder time buying into a journey if the plot isn't well executed.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tklivory wrote...

The main reason I glom onto DA:O is, admittedly, the *breadth* of the dialogue

Yea, that's one of the major reasons what makes DA:O feel like such a journey / experience for me (as opposed to a story perse, its plot is weak). The strength of the companions' *characters* (their role however is weak) and their complexity.  NPCs as well. 
Loghain as well. Without him, the main plot would have been ridiculous.

Also the atmosphere and the sheer amount of dialogue that made Ferelden feel alive to me (convos like that with Genitivi or Sister Petrine, or the Shaper). Something I never felt in ME.

The sheer ammount of dialogue means squat to me to be honest, when it's plot is as you say: Weak. That some choices seem interesting due to the dialogue doesn't mean it's more then superficial BS, because that's how it is.

In ME1 Shepard acts like the first human spectre. He has a fan, he has a reporter coming to him asking questions ( yes yes he can punch her, but he can also do an interview and decide how to respond with Hackett pleased or dispealed with how you do ). He interacts with the Council at the end of every major mission and decides how to talk with them, or he can tell them to **** off. He acts like a father/mother to Garrus, argues with Tali about the Geth and the morality of creating AI slaves and then deciding to wipe them out. 

Then there's the universe itself and how it feels very probable that humanity can develop along those lines, Kaidan talking about jump zero and how biotics were created by "accident". Ashley, with the burden of her grandfather's name on her shoulders, her poetry, her religious belief, Seriously Leliana has nothing on her.

Shepard can wipe out an entire species that almost destroyed the galaxy or he can give them another chance, he can try to persuade Wrex why Saren's cure is not a good idea or he can kill him. He can persuade Saren his plan is not going well. He can play corporate politics on Noveria or not care about them. He can manipulate people quite well.

In Mass Effect 2, besides the bad start with the Lazarus Project and all, and the problems of the main Collector plot it has a lot of interesting of stuff.going on Legion's quest and the choice at the end, Tali's quests, Zaeed's quest, Mordin's quest, Samara's quest ( though I don't like her I found the situation with Morinth very interesting and the ways Shepard can tackle it ), Thane's quest ( like Samara, but you get a good glimpse into Citadel politics ) Garrus's quest, Grunt's quest and how you begin to understand the Krogan as a species. Hell all of them.

Not all your squad members are interesting people and not all these quests give you choices, but every one of them adds something to the Mass Effect Universe ( save Jacob's, though it does show an interesting survival situation ). Jack's quest, while not interesting at all when it comes to Jack herself shows us how far TIM is willing to go or not and how far some Cerberus scientists are willing to go.

Then there's the fact that Bioware created all these decently sized places on all these planets. How many are there anyway? More then thirty at least. DA has nothing on that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The sheer ammount of dialogue means squat to me to be honest, when it's plot is as you say: Weak. That some choices seem interesting due to the dialogue doesn't mean it's more then superficial BS, because that's how it is.

DA:O for me is not about plot, it's about the journey and experience.
Its choices are interesting not due to the sheer amount of dialogue that add weight and gravity to them only. They are interesting in and of themselves, the dialogue and well written NPCs just make them better.

I don't quite get what you are listing, especially since most of what you list doesn't really interest me or had little to no effect on me so I won't bother with listing things that I like from DA:O or what the companions talk about which I find more interesting, multi-faceted and more abundant than what you list.
For instance, the idea that Ashley is better than Leliana is something I disagree with completely, despite liking Ashley. Has nothing to do with how cute she is.

And ME1's plot while more consistent, is not that strong either. It's just as cliched and too single minded on the thing that I do not give a damn about (the Reapers). At least DA:O didn't shove the blight on my face and gave me a lot of space to appreciate the htings that I care about. ME2 almost had not plot, with idiotic antagonists that serve no purpose other than meat fodder.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Dragon Age has it's own fair share of stupid antagonists: Branka, Howe, Vaughn, hell even Bhelen shows stupidity during the main plot with Vartag and when he attacks the Warden. I won't even talk of Uldred abomination or that desire demon in Redcliffe.

I do however fail to see how the choices in DA:O are so damned interesting. Subtetly is something I can appreciate like in games as Alpha Protocol, Deus EX and the Witcher 1+2, but to me DA:O is done very poorly in that regards.

I do admit that I was fairly biased against DA:O from the start. I got it right after I had finished ME1 twice and I was instantly disappointed by the lack of voiced protagonist, which I consider a must have for RPGs these days, even though I know you will disagree. The Universe also seemed quite bland to me and the combat was ****, and still is ****. There were also very few locations and no exploration.

To me for a game to be praised it must have more then some interesting character, which granted DA:O had here and there, a good plot: which DA:O didn't have, good graphics and good combat. It must have all of them. Alpha Protocol, as bad as it's balance is, is quite enjoyable as a game in all those regards and even it's graphics look good, from an artistic pov. While you only care about the story.

To be quite frank however the only reasons I care about the DA universe nowadays is this thread and two very well written fanfictions that still aren't finished ( of course there is Addai's and others ) being written by a historian. While with ME I do genuinly care about what is going to happen even after ME3's end.

On a side note, been playing Arkham City and I freaking love it now that I learned the combat. Nothing quite like trashing down a dozen or so goons with my bare fists.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Dragon Age has it's own fair share of stupid antagonists: Branka, Howe, Vaughn, hell even Bhelen shows stupidity during the main plot with Vartag and when he attacks the Warden. I won't even talk of Uldred abomination or that desire demon in Redcliffe.

Branka wasn't stupid, neither was Howe. They, like Loredo, are corrupt and couckou in the head, though Loredo was more subtle.
Vaughn is not a character as far as I am concerned, but a caricature. Uldred was botched sadly.

Characters showing some stupidity is fine, if for the sake of argument I agree that Bhelen was stupid in that regard, which I don't think he was. So long as it's not their whole involvement in the plot, like TIM. There is no reason for him to revive Shepard and it's inexcusable that everything Cerberus does ends in disaster.

I do however fail to see how the choices in DA:O are so damned interesting. Subtetly is something I can appreciate like in games as Alpha Protocol, Deus EX and the Witcher 1+2, but to me DA:O is done very poorly in that regards.

I find the conflict between modernity (in this case, in an authoritarian Attaturk-esque blend) and traditionalist resistance in Orzammar very interesting and something that as an Arab, I experienced and still experience first hand. The issue was not portrayed perfectly, far from it. But I still find it interesting and done well enough. Much more interesting to me than whether an insect race that I've seen a million times gets to live or die.

The Landsmeet and the maneuvring you can do is not bipolar (multiple ways to end it) and one of the few instances where I feel that a Bioware PC can think like a politician (even if ultimately, it's irrelevent like all Bioware choices). I also find the choice of monarch in Ferelden interesting, only because Eamon whom I respect (I know you don't) adds another layer to it. Had it been Alistair alone vs Anora, it wouldn't have even been a choice for me.
I found the Urn choice interesting on a purely poilitical / economic level even if the quest in general annoys me....etc

To me for a game to be praised it must have more then some interesting character, which granted DA:O had here and there, a good plot: which DA:O didn't have, good graphics and good combat. It must have all of them. Alpha Protocol, as bad as it's balance is, is quite enjoyable as a game in all those regards and even it's graphics look good, from an artistic pov. While you only care about the story.

Not only. But story trumps everything for me yes. Story and plot are not the same. Though of course I'd prefer a game with a good story and a good plot, which TW2 does extremily well. In my mind, ME1 had a good plot (structurally) but a weak story, while DA:O was the reverse (I'd say had a very good story because of the characters and setting it created). KOTOR I think had both done well. TW2 in my opinion did both really really well (though it lakced the amount of dialogue, its characters are more interesting to me than most of DA:O ones.)
 
But I enjoyed DA:O's combat more than ME's. Couldn't care less about the balance.  It was simply more fun.
I never claimed that my opinion of DA:O is objective or "professional", I couldn't care less. I simply enjoy it more than ME1 and 2 for a variety of reasons. I think all three are ultimately good games by any objective standard, but one caters to my interests more than the other two.

On a side note, been playing Arkham City and I freaking love it now that I learned the combat. Nothing quite like trashing down a dozen or so goons with my bare fists.

Using gadjets in mid-combat in loads of fun too. 

The game's story could have been better though, but it was still good.

[Costin_Razvan]

Ah my opinion of games is far from professional but I did enjoy ME2 combat a hell bloody lot more then DA:O combat, it's not about balance for me it's about fun or well entertainment as it is then anything else. DA:O just isn't entertaining for me while the ME games, especially ME2 are.

Still even if I was to agree that DA:O is a worthy game, which I don't think it is in the long run though it does have something to offer for 1-4 runs, I'd argue that the direction of the ME franchise is going in is a lot better then the DA franchise.

Oh and curse the ****ing Riddler. Also there are some people suggesting Rocksteady make a Superman game...**** that ****.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Still even if I was to agree that DA:O is a worthy game, which I don't think it is in the long run though it does have something to offer for 1-4 runs, I'd argue that the direction of the ME franchise is going in is a lot better then the DA franchise.

Both their direction are **** to me. ME3 might not be as mediocre as DA2 as a game and be much more polished, but it has the same freakin problems. Bioware's complete inability to  create a universe devoid of big bad evil bs with competent and reasonable characters.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:39 .

[Costin_Razvan]

With Mass Effect 3 it's not like they could do anything different then the Reapers at this point, and it's not like they could just have it implied rather then direct ( as say the Wild Hunt and the end of the world in the Witcher ) so that earns them a pass from me. Though they did do it implied in ME to a point.

Of course if there is another RPG with a big bad evil I'll be pissed. Still even the big massive game called Skyrim has the big bad evil BS. Eventually though even CDPR will have to deal with the big bad Wild Hunt.

One thing that does disappoint me greatly about DA:O is it's ending, not that post coronation part, that's done reasonably well but the final battle itself. it's just bull**** from every perspective: Gameplay, Story, Cinematic wise. and a game's ending should be a lot better then that. Not that DA:A is better but ME1 and ME2? Hell freaking yeah.

P.S. How do you feel about Geralt meeting a sexy spy with which he will save Foltest's children? heh. I do like the idea of the end cinematic telling you how your choices impacted the world. Might even get me to replay on Iorveth's path.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Of course if there is another RPG with a big bad evil I'll be pissed. Still even the big massive game called Skyrim has the big bad evil BS. Eventually though even CDPR will have to deal with the big bad Wild Hunt.

Hence why I am not interested in Skyrim.
And yes, I am extremily worried about the Wild Hunt.
I have faith in CDPR, but still am very worried.

Maybe they can make the Wild Hunt interesting and not that important in the larger scheme of things. I hope.

One thing that does disappoint me greatly about DA:O is it's ending, not that post coronation part, that's done reasonably well but the final battle itself. it's just bull**** from every perspective: Gameplay, Story, Cinematic wise. and a game's ending should be a lot better then that. Not that DA:A is better but ME1 and ME2? Hell freaking yeah.

ME1 and ME2's endings were more epic, sure. But story wise? They make as little sense. They are typical Hollywood-esque endings. Fun to watch, but not much to think about.

Letho and Geralt drinking vodka and parting ways beats the hell out of these endings with such ease for me, it's not even funny. Do I even need to mention Alpha Protocol's Hand of God ending?

P.S. How do you feel about Geralt meeting a sexy spy with which he will save Foltest's children? heh. I do like the idea of the end cinematic telling you how your choices impacted the world. Might even get me to replay on Iorveth's path.

What? Sexy spy? Where?
Sigh, I hope they won't have a sex overload as fan service.

Is it confirmed that it's Anais and Boussy?
IF so, then Geralt has to fail in some way, at least with regards to Anais. Maybe Boussy is taken by the spy?

[Costin_Razvan]

Boussy dies, Geralt mentions it to Roche in game while they go meet Radovid. As for the spy she is mentioned in the article. Come on female spies use sex as a tool, look at Alias ( which has a very great story and plot ).

Ending wise I'd argue ME1's ending where you find out what happened to the Portheans on Ilios, convince Saren he is wrong and he commit suicide along with the ability to choose what the future governement of the galaxy will be beats the living **** out of DA:O

Of course The Witcher endings wipe the floor with ME and DA put together and let's not forget Deus EX.

As for Alpha Protocol, I always feel I should be dressed up in a suit with a glass of wine in my hand to be worthy of watching it. It puts a smile on my face every single time.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Can you link me the article?

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Ending wise I'd argue ME1's
ending where you find out what happened to the Portheans on Ilios,
convince Saren he is wrong and he commit suicide along with the ability
to choose what the future governement of the galaxy will be beats the
living **** out of DA:O

I on the otherhand would argue that the Landsmeet, Loghain joining you, romanced Morrigan leaving and companions parting ways is far more emotional, engrossing and a more satisfying ending than ME1's. Different tastes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:26 .

[Costin_Razvan]

It's the one Slimgrim linked on the witcher forums. There's a mention of a spy and some royal heirs Geralt must recover.

http://www.bellingha...ed-pc-role.html

Wait, is your brother by any chance on your account on those forums?

[KnightofPhoenix]

No it's me.

I thought it was another article that confirmed that they are Foltest's children (even though I am 99% sure it's them) and showed a pic of the sexy spy....

[Costin_Razvan]

Well we have 2 months of waiting ahead...not going to be fun.

[pplr]

I played Deus Ex a while back (I take it you referred to the original).

What is so much grander with it than DA:O?

That the bad guys don't tell you that you're working for them when the game starts? Thats not terribly huge.

And the ending has less variety than DA:O.

[Costin_Razvan]

No I meant HR.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The plot of Human Revolution is not great either, nor is the story imo. They are both good, but not great. I personally do find it better than ME2 in both. A bit better than ME1. Better than DA:O in plot, slightly better in story (two different creatures that satisfy me differently and almost equally. HR on an intellectual level and DA:O on an emotional level).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 janvier 2012 - 06:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I on the otherhand would argue that the Landsmeet, Loghain joining you, romanced Morrigan leaving and companions parting ways is far more emotional, engrossing and a more satisfying ending than ME1's. Different tastes.

The Landsmeet is not the ending, it's not on the level of Ilios but on the level of Virmire in terms of story importance, and to me, as much as like Loghain and you know I like him a lot, I'd consider Virmire at least the Landsmeet's equal.

As for Morrigan, one might not give two spits about her, hell they might not give to spits about any companion. It's a fact and while I did like her and wasn't happy about losing her there I still didn't feel it matched Mass Effect's epic ending. In fact most of the goodbyes feel like companions lining up to kiss the Warden's ass.

The post coronation situation was much better, and I felt those were proper goodbyes.

As for HR, at it least it doesn't insult my inteligence the way DA:O does. DA:O WANTS you to hate Loghain, it WANTS you to hate Howe, it WANTS you to like Alistair and it frustrates the living **** out of me when it's clear as day the game wants you to do these things. The Landsmeet is a pathetic quest line in my eyes, and the only redeming things are Anora and Loghain.

At the end though I feel extremly bored when I try replaying Origins, and DA:A  while I can play replay the Mass Effect games no problem even now, with the minor issue in ME1 that I always want to recreate my male shepard's look and I fail ( though I've spent just as much time playing both ) . I know you spent more time playing DA:O and DAA then the ME games but which can you honestly say you would replay now? Neither, DA or ME?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:57 .

[Joy Divison]

I don't think personal taste is a very good indicator of artistic merit. I really liked Jurassic Park and feel asleep watching both Casablanca and Deer Hunter...

Edit: I think DA:O had the most replay value of the DA and ME series.  The paragon/regegade mechanic by its nature I would argue railraods the player down one of two possible paths - I'd really like to throw this guy out the window because he totally deserves it, but I want to pass that hard paragon check upcoming...  Why Bioware thought this was a good mold for DA:2 is one of the many questionable changes I'd love an honest answer from the developers  

Modifié par Joy Divison, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Landsmeet is not the ending, it's not on the level of Ilios but on the level of Virmire in terms of story importance, and to me, as much as like Loghain and you know I like him a lot, I'd consider Virmire at least the Landsmeet's equal.

I disagree, I think they are incomparable because the entire structure is different.
Virmire is the midgame, which does not eixst in DA:O because it has a completely different structure (or lack thereof). In terms of story relevence, maybe it's the deep roads is the Virmire of the game for the twist and revelation factor (broodmothers). VIrmire is the Leviathan from KOTOR.

The Landsmeet however is definitely the end game in DA:O, not the midgame.

As for Morrigan, one might not give two spits about her, hell they might not give to spits about any companion. It's a fact and while I did like her and wasn't happy about losing her there I still didn't feel it matched Mass Effect's epic ending. In fact most of the goodbyes feel like companions lining up to kiss the Warden's ass.

Of course, just like one may not give a damn about ME universe's political setting.  So the choice at the end of ME1 may be utterly irrelevent to someone.

What I do know, that out of the two, one affected me emotionally and engrossed me much more than the other. Both are ultimately subjective. And the companion goodbyes *always* got me choked up, during the battle and post coronation.

As for HR, at it least it doesn't insult my inteligence the way DA:O does. DA:O WANTS you to hate Loghain, it WANTS you to hate Howe, it WANTS you to like Alistair and it frustrates the living **** out of me when it's clear as day the game wants you to do these things. The Landsmeet is a pathetic quest line in my eyes, and the only redeming things are Anora and Loghain.

Sure I agree, HR is a much more intellectually satisfying game, whereas to me DA:O was much more emotional satisfying (emotionally speaking, I did not feel much after DX:HR. TW2 had a good blend of both, but much more leanign towards my intellectual tastes). I'd argue that TW2 wants you to hate Henselt, Dethmold and Stennis and to love Saskia and the fact that you didn't is not relevent to what the game wants (let's face it, you and me we rarely dislike the people we are supposed to dislike). Of course to TW2's credit, these characters were more complex and better written. Howe? While I do not think he is that bad of a character (see my thread about him), ultimately he's just there to be hated. Just like Loredo, let's face it. Even if he is somewhat smart and competent, he is written to be despicable.

I'd also argue that HR expected you to hate Taggart, so resorted to the same old trick of making him lose his wife to implants (that actually annoyed me. I sympathized with Taggart already, I didn't need this cheapness to make me like him).

And let's not even mention how ME insults our intelligence and how many characters it begs you to hate.

Speaking of respecting our intelligence:
www.youtube.com/watch

I feel this respects my intelligence more than all  Bioware games I played. Not even exagerrating.

At the end though I feel extremly bored when I try replaying Origins, and DA:A  while I can play replay the Mass Effect games no problem even now, with the minor issue in ME1 that I always want to recreate my male shepard's look and I fail ( though I've spent just as much time playing both ) . I know you spent more time playing DA:O and DAA then the ME games but which can you honestly say you would replay now? Neither, DA or ME?

DA, no question. I actually want to replay my Dain Aeducan sometime.  I do not feel the slightest inclination to replay ME, especially ME2.
Of course, I'd rather replay TW2 (especially with the recent news). Frankly, I am not that inclined to replay Deus Ex HR either.

But honestly now I am not in the mindset to replay any game, but that's due to personal reasons.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 janvier 2012 - 03:15 .

[Ysmirs_Beard]

Everyone, I shall settle this!
The deepest character is in my honest opinion, Loghain.
He's tragic AND heroic, has a good motive for evil, and a believable character.
I rareley emphasise with video game chacters but Loghain, solid gold.

[Costin_Razvan]

And let's not even mention how ME insults our intelligence and how many characters it begs you to hate.

Speaking of respecting our intelligence:
www.youtube.com/watch

I feel this respects my intelligence more than all Bioware games I played. Not even exagerrating.

Oh very true, but I think it's more obvious in DA where characters are so prominent unlike ME. For me it's the exact reverse when it comes to which games I'd replay, and those are the ME games.

(let's face it, you and me we rarely dislike the people we are supposed to dislike)

Of course. Goes for Loghain, Bhelen, Letho, Parker, Leland, Alvin ( and you know what I mean by that ) etc.