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[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alistair was changed because Gaider thought he was "too manly" that it compromised the Warden's leadership....now fortunately Alistair is actually interesting so I could tolerate him, but what Gaider said speaks volume. Their mantra is pretty clear, they think they need to put down everyone else to give us the illusion that the PC is important and competent.

How was Alistair changed? I don't think I heard about that interview (assuming he said it during an interview, of course).

[tklivory]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alistair was changed because Gaider thought he was "too manly" that it compromised the Warden's leadership....now fortunately Alistair is actually interesting so I could tolerate him, but what Gaider said speaks volume. Their mantra is pretty clear, they think they need to put down everyone else to give us the illusion that the PC is important and competent.

How was Alistair changed? I don't think I heard about that interview (assuming he said it during an interview, of course).

From what I've read, he was a 'man's man' kind of thing.  He was older, had been a Warden for longer, and acted much more like a combat and Warden veteran ratjer than a 'i've only been doing this for six months' kind of attitude.  Certainly less funny and far less jokesy.  

Here are Gaider's exact words (from this interview):

"I remember Alistair actually is one in Origins who I really enjoyed writing just because -- most people don’t know this -- we had an entire version of Alistair where he was this grim, veteran warrior. An older and just a very serious type who was distrustful of you, and he wasn’t much fun. Nobody liked him because he was so untrustworthy. We really wanted to set this up as a romance interest as well as a good buddy for a male player, and it wasn’t working. He touched on that Carth vibe a little bit much, but he really hit a bad note with the male players. So, it came down as one of those revisions where we just couldn’t fix him. Even though it was painful to make the decision to start all over, it really worked out well. I think Alistair and the fact that he’s fun really came across. He was quite a popular character."

Modifié par tklivory, 06 janvier 2012 - 07:47 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair ended up being crap as I see it.

[tklivory]

It depends on what one desires in a character. Just as most of the characters in Dragon Age, Alistair has his detractors and his supporters. As in most Bioware games, each character appeals to a greater or lesser degree based on what the player wants in characters.

One character that comes to my mind in Bioware games that I just can't stand was Ashley. Oddly enough, it boiled down to a single aspect of her character: her religious beliefs. It just was a real "yeah, I just can't get into that" type of reaction with me, which is distinctly odd considering that Alistair, Leliana and Wynne are all 'religious' characters that I don't react to in nearly the same way. Maybe it was because, in Ashley's case, it was due to the fact that it was an IRL religion (or largely based on one).

Odd, as I said.  I rarely have 'personal' objections to a character, and she's the only only I can think of that I did.

EDIT:
Anyway, I can't quite agree that Alistair is 'crap' because, even if you don't like the character, you can't argue that to many people he is and continues to be a compelling component of the game.  How different would the Loghain/Alistair dynamic have been, for example, if Alistair had been as originally planned?  It would also have been more difficult to establish a puppet king for someone like, say, Arcturus.    But then, to me a good character isn't one I'd like to pal around with, it's someone who provides added benefit to the story.  Alistair as he is, I think, adds more dynamic to the story than a badass.  But the reasons they chose to have him not be a badass?  Interesting, and not entirely to my liking, as they support the whole 'PC WARDEN IS GOD' aspect a bit too much.

Modifié par tklivory, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alistair was changed because Gaider thought he was "too manly" that it compromised the Warden's leadership....now fortunately Alistair is actually interesting so I could tolerate him, but what Gaider said speaks volume. Their mantra is pretty clear, they think they need to put down everyone else to give us the illusion that the PC is important and competent.

How was Alistair changed? I don't think I heard about that interview (assuming he said it during an interview, of course).

It was at PAX.  He said that in their earlier plans Alistair was an older, hard-edged warrior who was skeptical of the Warden's decisions.  In focus groups, particularly the male players reacted negatively to this, so they changed Alistair to a younger and more pliable character.

edit:  ...and, long ninja'ed 

*slips back out*

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tklivory wrote...
Anyway, I can't quite agree that Alistair is 'crap' because, even if you don't like the character, you can't argue that to many people he is and continues to be a compelling component of the game.  How different would the Loghain/Alistair dynamic have been, for example, if Alistair had been as originally planned?  It would also have been more difficult to establish a puppet king for someone like, say, Arcturus.   

Arcturus had Alistair executed.

I think you mean Dain Aeducan.

[tklivory]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tklivory wrote...
Anyway, I can't quite agree that Alistair is 'crap' because, even if you don't like the character, you can't argue that to many people he is and continues to be a compelling component of the game.  How different would the Loghain/Alistair dynamic have been, for example, if Alistair had been as originally planned?  It would also have been more difficult to establish a puppet king for someone like, say, Arcturus.   

Arcturus had Alistair executed.

I think you mean Dain Aeducan.

You're right.  Sorry, got your characters mixed up in me head.    Of course Arcturus could marry Anora.  Dain played mwahaha evil councillor/vizier.  

 still remember my own Marjorie Cousland who married Alistair for power and kept Leliana on the side.  I wuved her. 

Modifié par tklivory, 06 janvier 2012 - 10:27 .

[LobselVith8]

^ Thanks for the information, guys.

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair, for whatever reasons people like him, had no bloody place in a Warzone, and just because people like something doesn't mean it's good.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 janvier 2012 - 07:10 .

[Joy Divison]

How did Wynne make it past these focus groups?

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alistair, for whatever reasons people like him, had no bloody place in a Warzone, and just because people like something doesn't mean it's good.

Less than half of WW2 grunts fired their weapon in battle.  Most soldiers fail to live up to the warrior archetype.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 07 janvier 2012 - 07:15 .

[tklivory]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alistair, for whatever reasons people like him, had no bloody place in a Warzone, and just because people like something doesn't mean it's good.

Well, by those standards, the only companions who *belonged* in a warzone (i.e., had the requisite battle experience, emotional control/maturity, and skill) would be... Sten and Dog (possibly Wynne, but only in a support role) and Loghain (for the most part, depending on the nature of the Warden).


Those who shouldn't be there according to RL standards:

Leliana: not a warrior (bardic skills and a good archer belong in reconaissance), suffers from massive PTSD

Zevran: assassins don't belong in a warzone, they're supposed to *prevent* or *cause* wars

Shale: hates humans as a stipulation of her character; why would she help them end the Blight?

Oghren: already proved unsuitable enough by his own people that he was stripped of weapons.  Plus, drunkard

Morrigan: again, no experience, caustic personality, not familiar with large crowds of people

Aaand, last but not least, the Warden (with the exception of the DN and the HN) -
should never have been put into charge of a key group in a war effort.


I love each and every one of these characters (yup, even Wynne).  Were I to fight an actual warzone?  Gimme the kossith, the hound, and the interfering old baggage.


To cherry pick Alistair as unsuitable for a Warzone, and not call other companions out for the same reason, is flawed logic. (Not that you were particularly doing this, since the context of the conversation in this case *was* specifically Alistair, but I'm expanding the argument slightly in this case.  )  Also, his unsuitability to a Warzone does not discount him as a dynamic and valuable character in the context of the story,  Some people never have him in the party.  Some people never recruit Loghain.  Does that mean these characters are poorly written or inconsequential to the story line?


I mentioned before that I disliked Ashley's character in Mass Effect.  Yet, the first time I had to choose, I sacrificed Kaidan, even though my femShep was courting him.  Why?  In the context of my role playing of that particular Shepherd, her giving him up fit the storyline and motivation of the character.


One of my characters who almost lost his father to slavery spared Loghain.  Marjorie Cousland, who was his goddaughter, killed him.  This does not make Loghain more or less inconsequential.


There are other reasons to dislike Alistair, just as there are reasons to dislike all the companions and characters, and there are reasons to like him, just like there are reasons to like all the companions and characters (well, except Arl Howe), but the very fact he has engendered such discussion indicates a significant character, an effective character, even if he is not intrinsic to your exposition and extrapolation of the plot.


He's very similar to Loghain in that sense, actually.  I have a friend who is on her third playthrough the game, and each time she 'hates Loghain more'.  Someday, I will have 'the discussion' with her in Loghain's defense, just as I had 'the discussion' in Alistair's defense with someone else who had never spared Alistair 'because he was a wuss'.


In the end, different strokes for different folks, o' course.  As long as I'm not forced to take Arl Howe into my party, I'm all good.

Modifié par tklivory, 07 janvier 2012 - 09:08 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair has almost NO bloody experience fighting everyday for his life and I mean almost none. Leliena has, Zevran has, Morrigan ( especially her ) has, Shale has and Oghren has fought and led troops in the Orzammar army.

I don't care about their motivation. I care about their experience.. I don't care how funny you find him, if he was a sidekick like Dandelion ( a silly funny, amusing, lovable fool ) in the Witcher games then I wouldn't have a problem with him, but he's a warden.

As for the Warden being unsuitable to fight...well that's just further proves my point of how DA:O sucks.

Less than half of WW2 grunts fired their weapon in battle. Most soldiers fail to live up to the warrior archetype.

Alistair is no grunt, he's a key actor in the war, at least that's how the story is written. More to the point you think Gaider knows squat about history, the military and war?

That most people like him doesn't mean anything from an objective PoV, and before either you argues I am biased against. I ALWAYS befriended him, sometimes I hardened him sometimes not, and my 2nd cannon Warden, that I care about just a bit less then my DN, romanced him.

Yet there are flaws with Alistair, massive ones. He's a pathetic candidate for a king but apparently Gaider finds him suitable enough, he's supposed to be a great big main character who smashes darkspawn but his personality does NOT match the idea.

I say it again: Alistair should have been like Dandelion, but of course Gaider is a ****ing retard ( I am talking here about a guy who thought it was a GOOD idea to write Meredith the way he did ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 janvier 2012 - 11:05 .

[tklivory]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alistair has almost NO bloody experience fighting everyday for his life and I mean almost none. Leliena has, Zevran has, Morrigan ( especially her ) has, Shale has and Oghren has fought and led troops in the Orzammar army.

Yet he *did* have consistent arms training for a great many years from an organization that is acknowledged in the lore as producing rather good warriors and fighters (i.e., the Templars).  Just because someone has never fought 'for his life' does not mean that he is unqualified to do so once he is put on the field.  That's like saying that the only good Marine is one who has had an opportunity to die first.  Just a bit... odd, I suppose, in my view.  This speaks not to his personality, merely to his training and background.

And I *do* think that just because someone has the *ability* to fight (a la Leliana, Zevran, and Oghren) doesn't make them *appropriate* to the nature of the fight.  Were this RL and I in a Warzone, I wouldn't want anyone but a steady, experienced soldier at my side and a support member of the team.  In my mind, that excludes Alistair (inexperienced), Leliana (suffers PTSD), Zevran (loose cannon), Oghren (drunkard, unreliable), Shale (dislikes humans, busted control rod).  Now, Shale's points may seem disingenuous, but I really wouldn't want to go into battle with someone who I can't absolutely trust to obey my orders in any given situation.  Sten and Dog I could, as a commander, trust, and Wynne would work fine for a support role.

And Morrigan didn't *fight* for her life everyday.  She *survived* - which is, arguably a difference matter entirely.  (Or at least, that's the impression I got from the dialogue in the game.  If there is additional information elsewhere, I am simply unaware of it. )  Not to say that she also couldn't step up to the plate, so to speak, but I don't see her as a hardened, proven 'warrior', which is what I was trying to describe.

I wasn't seeking to say that the others couldn't *fight* per se, just that their particular fighting skills weren't necessarily suitable for a Warzone, which was the parameter given.

Now, a *guerilla* fighting situation... That would be different.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for the Warden being unsuitable to fight...well that's just further proves my point of how DA:O sucks.

Heh, the 'inexperienced Hero saves the day' trope at work.  Definitely not limited to Bioware, and I can't blame DA:O for suffering from this syndrome because it merely reflects the Epic Fantasy genre at large in this matter.  For every Geralt, there number one hundred Frodos.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alistair is no grunt, he's a key actor in the war, at least that's how the story is written. More to the point you think Gaider knows squat about history, the military and war?

No.  'Tis a strange conundrum in fantasy, more's the pity, that a genre so wrapped up in trying to portray history, military, and war in a non-Earth setting should so often muck it up.  *shrug*  I've given up on realism in those matters, though, admittedly.  I think the last time I read/saw/played a work set in High Fantasy was... Midkemia, and only on the Kelewan side.

And I don't see Alistair as being a key actor in the war, per se (in terms of the actual leadership role of the fighting) because the game immediately has him cede that role to the PC.  In determining the outcome of the "government" after the war, but Riordan makes it *very* plain that Wardens can be very stupid, so it's not like Alistair is the only one without all his faculties, if you get my meaning. :happy:  (Gah! Riordan, you... grrrr)  Given that you can play the entire game until the Landsmeet without Alistair's involvement, I can't really see him as a key actor, though that may just be game mechanics.  (Heck, I've even done solo runs the whole way through for S&G!)  The Landsmeet, of course, still doesn't really have to affect anything, so...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That most people like him doesn't mean anything from an objective PoV, and before either you argues I am biased against. I ALWAYS befriended him, sometimes I hardened him sometimes not, and my 2nd cannon Warden, that I care about just a bit less then my DN, romanced him.

Yet there are flaws with Alistair, massive ones. He's a pathetic candidate for a king but apparently Gaider finds him suitable enough, he's supposed to be a great big main character who smashes darkspawn but his personality does NOT match the idea.

Nah, I'm not saying you hate him.  You are pointing out perceived flaws and weaknesses in writing.  Exactly what we are here to discuss, no?  (although we should probs have more Loghain in this argument, y'know)

And I don't see Alistair as being proposed as a King Aragorn type of 'whoa, he's teh greatest!' character.  In fact, I rarely make him King at all.  To be fair, there is no perfect candidate for Monarch, and the PC is left to RP which one fits their aims better.  I guess I just don't see the writing as particularly saying 'Bee Tee EM, Alistair is teh bestest Theirin EVAR'.  Of course, we're talking about Cailan's successor here... Talk about setting the bar low...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I say it again: Alistair should have been like Dandelion, but of course Gaider is a ****ing retard ( I am talking here about a guy who thought it was a GOOD idea to write Meredith the way he did ).

Not much to comment here.  Who's Meredith?  Am I just forgetting someone, or is that a DA2/ME2 character I just don't know...?


Thanks for the great discuss, Costin!  'Tis fun!

[Costin_Razvan]

I've given up on realism in those matters, though, admittedly.

I haven't. Not with the Witcher games smashing down Bioware in that regard and then taking a ****** on the Bioware games.

In fact realism is something I demand from Bioware right now. And hell here's another reason why DA sucks compared to ME. Mass Effect at least TRIES ( and I know it fails at points ) to portray a sense of realism to it's universe while DA flat out fails.

Not much to comment here. Who's Meredith? Am I just forgetting someone, or is that a DA2/ME2 character I just don't know...?

The end game boss of DA2. I refuse to even call her a character or a villain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]tklivory wrote...

[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for the Warden being unsuitable to fight...well that's just further proves my point of how DA:O sucks.[/quote]

Heh, the 'inexperienced Hero saves the day' trope at work.  Definitely not limited to Bioware, and I can't blame DA:O for suffering from this syndrome because it merely reflects the Epic Fantasy genre at large in this matter.  For every Geralt, there number one hundred Frodos.
[/quote][/quote]

Hence why my canon Wardens are an HN and a DN. I have not tried to play a CE, DE or DC, nor do I plan to.

[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...


In
fact realism is something I demand from Bioware right now. And hell
here's another reason why DA sucks compared to ME. Mass Effect at least
TRIES ( and I know it fails at points ) to portray a sense of realism to
it's universe while DA flat out fails.[/quote]

Where?
ME takes a ****** on science at every single point. Politics? It's laughable.

Heck, the very idea that after 20ish years after first contact, Humanity can go as far as to dominate the political scene and have the largest fleet in Citadel space is ridiculous. The fact that in 20ish so years, they can match the technology of species that discovered the Mass Relays thousands of years before is laughable.
Telepathic race of blue lesbians? lol

ME is not Science fiction, it's Science fantasy. A typical space opera that doesn't give a damn about realism.

[quote]
[quote] Not much to comment here. Who's Meredith? Am I just forgetting someone, or is that a DA2/ME2 character I just don't know...? [/quote]

The end game boss of DA2. I refuse to even call her a character or a villain.[/quote]

I'd go as far as to not call her a boss.
Not really sure what she qualifies as, I prefer the archdemon.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 janvier 2012 - 04:20 .

[Joy Divison]

Regarding Wynne on the battlefield, I'd prefer for her to be on the enemy's side rather than mine

I don't have an issues with nobodies being the hero, so far as they are believable.  If you were a betting man back in 1789, would you have put any money on Napoleon?  It can be an annoying trope if it is forced and the protagonist does not have the goods to make such a rise credible. 

Allistair is only king and plays an important role if the Warden makes it so.  All he does otherwise is fight darkspawn, wants to follow, and tries to be funny.  He has one moment at the Landsmeet where he tries to be assertive if you spare Loghain, but even that outcome is determined by the Warden, not him.  This makes for a rather unremarkable character, one that is hard for me to have an issue.  He does little beyond the bounds of what I can imagine is possible for him to do on his own.  Had the game made it so he just grew a pair of stones and railroaded him to became king, then I'd have a big issue.

Since we already have the grizzeled vet who is suspicious of the Warden in Sten, it probably was a good idea to change Allistair's character.  He almost have to be deferential in order for the game to work and the player to have any agency...otherwise playing DA:O would be mostly following Allistair's orders, even on a tactical level.

[blothulfur]

Could there be a role for such a character in an rpg, a commander who can decide the course of the adventure I mean. He would have his own solutions to the quests we are set and a definite agenda, so that his rise to power as a monarch is slightly more believable.

As one of the two remaining grey wardens (the senior one no less), he would naturally seek to assert his dominance on the situation and serve as a guiding rod for the less sure of themselves players. Of course the more independent minded wardens could persuade or bully him into following their path, but there would be certain points at which he would not bend, such as the method of curing young Connor. The player could alienate him at these points leading to a more realistic hardened personality rather than the simple and easily missed single response in the conversation about Goldanna.

The warden could serve many positions in such a situation: The enabler of a great man, the softly spoken councillor who rules from behind the throne, the hero standing at odds with the new king or the heroic monarch who closed the curtain on the old Thierin bloodline.

Sten's challenge to the warden at Haven was refreshing for making the Qunari a touch more pro active, I don't think it would hurt to see that aspect of the game enhanced.

[Bleachrude]

Again, Alistair was a templar which by the lore are considered individually the best warriors in all of Thedas. The only origin that might actually have more arms training is the DN (and that's because the DN is older).

Blothulfur, I don't think you CAN have an older, more experienced warden NOT pushing the storyline and still have the "new guy". What works for the Witcher2 is that he's an older character and has made many connections/reputation in the world.

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair was not a templar, he was a trainee who didn't finish his full training. He wasn't even the best damned fighter among the trainees ( and that's according to lore ).

I think Alistair is actually older then any Origin PC though.

Bloth: Two words, Alpha Protocol.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 janvier 2012 - 11:52 .

[Bleachrude]

Yes he did..the only thing he didn't actually complete was his vows.

Alistair is usually seen as 19-21 (around the same age as all the PCs except for the DN which usually gets the early 30s)...Bhelen is the younger and most people put him at least late 20s-early 30s.

Sure, he wasn't the best fighter among the templars but that's the templars...it's like being the worst 00 agent in Her majesty's secret service...compared to your peers, you suck, compared to everyone else, you pretty much are kicking ass.

Personally, I've never seen why "easy-going/funny" gets acquainted with "no skills". It's the Batman effect I think.

[Costin_Razvan]

So he trained for some years to fight but he had NO experience in actually fighting against enemies, AND other trainees ( TRAINEES NOT full templars ) could kick his ass. It's in the wiki here on social bioware about how Duncan recruited him.

Also Templars are not that all that amazing against other fighters. It's shown both in DA:O and DA2. They are only good against mages.

Zevran is "easy-going/Funny" but he has experience and I consider him a good fighter who could kick Alistair's ass any day.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Zevran is "easy-going/Funny" but he has experience and I consider him a good fighter who could kick Alistair's ass any day.

In a straight-up fight, I'd put my money on Allistair.

[tklivory]

Joy Divison wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Zevran is "easy-going/Funny" but he has experience and I consider him a good fighter who could kick Alistair's ass any day.

In a straight-up fight, I'd put my money on Allistair.

In a straight-up fight, Zevran agrees with you, Joy. 

From the game:

Alistair: You're no raw recruit, but I've seen you fight. You're no master of combat, by any means.

Zevran: Assuming that I intended a fair fight, that would indeed be a problem.


One, these aren't the words of a man who is completely incompetent at fighting.  Alistair may not be the best, but he knows he is competent and has a solid foundation in the mechanics.  And even though he's just a guy in a metal suit when he's fighting against anyone except mages, that doesn't mean he can't fight non-mages, either.

Two, it is never Alistair's ability to fight that is questioned in the game (though he is never touted as 'teh master of fighting' either, of course), only aspects of his personality or his ability to be a leader, which Alistair himself doubts.  And I would never want Zevran to be a leader, either.


So, I'll just say again: Alistair has no *experience* but plenty of training.  Saying that this makes him unsuitable to fight in the Blight is like saying that the only good Marine is one who has actually seen war-time combat, and all who haven't are obviously incompetent losers.  Does this mean that all Wardens in the history of Thedas who never faced a Darkspawn were bad fighters?  Or that Chevalier who never did more than parade and engage in jousting tournaments were silly fools?  No, it just means that they happened to live in a period that was relatively free of war-time combat.

And saying he shouldn't be fighting in the Blight because he isn't the *bestest of the bestest* at fighting?  If generals *only* fought with the best soldiers, they'd lose.  Always.  Fodder in war is always a requirement.


EDIT:
Why are we still arguing about this in the Loghain thread?  Hee hee, poor Loghain... Alistair haunts him even here...

Modifié par tklivory, 08 janvier 2012 - 06:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree with those saying that Alistair is a good fighter. He is not the best (I think Sten and Oghren are better in terms of skill and experience), but he has training and he has heart, it cannot be denied. He is courageous on the battlefield.

His problem is not lack of physical skill,  but lack of will and reason.

tklivory wrote...
And I would never want Zevran to be a leader, either.

Depends on what kind of leadership position you are talking about.
I think Zevran would make an excellent leader of the crows.