12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think Ferelden peasants love the nobility too. I'd much rather focus on middle class property owners.

In any case, I would have probably regarded Vlad as imprudent were I there. Not saying it's impossible for such a policy to succeed, but I'd argue that there are far more prudent and far better policies out there.

But as you know, I am a fan of subtlety and moderation and do not like excess.

[Costin_Razvan]

Of course, while I am a fan of dealing with my enemies with strong decisive brutal blows and I'd prefer that in a governement.

I would say however that a lot of the greatest people in our history have been regarded as imprudent, fools, reckless, mad in their time.

The sad part about this discussion is that it contains more intelligence then any Bioware game will have.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 janvier 2012 - 09:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

They were usually very lucky too. Frederich comes to mind. Tactically brilliant, but he commiited a huge strategic mistake and got very lucky.

I view Alexander as very reckless and foolish and I think he is overrated. Caesar as well (though less than Alexander).

So yes, a lot of people deemed great, I'd probably not look that favorably towards them.

[Costin_Razvan]

In all our history of the military it was not the moderate commanders who prevailed the most and are considered the best, but the the most reckless ones, or rather I should say the ones considered the most reckless.

If you analyze their tactics and strategy you will find that most of the time it was incredibly well thought out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Military is different than politics. One ought to be a moderate politician, but when push comes to shove, be highly aggressive and brutal militarily while keep utilizing politics as a strategic weapon.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2012 - 09:57 .

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I want practical reasons why I should not accept Vaughn's offer as a CE, not emmotional bull**** ones.

There is no practical reason why you should accept his offer.  The CE only has leverage against Vaughn bc/ she is in the same room with a weapon.  Once the circumstances are removed, the CE has no mechanism to ensure Vaughn lives up to his end of the bargain.  In fact, Vaughn has a powerful motive to make the CE disappear.  The city guards are still going to march into the Alienage if you let Vaughn live and the CE will be arrested and convicted (or did you kill single servant in the castle who could witness you?  Opps, you left Vaughn and his two goons alive as witnesses).

Let's face it, the CE needs a deux ex machina to live with or without killing Vaughn.  It's not an "emotional bull****" reason to gut Vaughn.  Your CE is dead either way so you might as well kill him too.

The City Elves are useless, illterate, unskilled except at being servants and prostitutes and they would greatly ****** off the Dalish Elves if they were sent to live at Ostagar.

They represent a latent counterweight to the ruling class of Ferelden: the nobility and the chantry.  They are only theives and ****s because Ferelden's rulers and socio-political system refuse to efficiently tap its own resources.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 janvier 2012 - 10:11 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Your CE is dead either way so you might as well kill him too.

That's your motive? Really, seriously?

Well beg my bloody pardon for disagreeing on that! I am not going to murder someone just because of an emotional argument, end of story and the CE has to flee anyway so he/she might as well do it with a pouch of coin and if you really care about your fellow elves better that you be found guilty and not someone else.

Rape is a not crime that warrants the death sentence, and I don't give a **** what anyone argues on that.

They represent a latent counterweight to the ruling class of Ferelden: the nobility and the chantry. They are only theives and ****s because Ferelden's rulers and socio-political system refuse to efficiently tap its own resources.

Waste of resources and time, they would need training, education, employment, that's a lot of cash for a whole bunch of nothing. In my country we have Gypsies, oh pardon Romani people, that are in a very similar situation to what the CEs are in, and the last thing you would want to do with them is invest that kind of cash, it would be all wasted.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 janvier 2012 - 10:30 .

[pplr]

But where does a CE that takes the money flee too? Plus you don't keep the coin for long-you can hide it but that involves someone else not finding it and you being able to get it inside a city where you are wanted man-possible but not easy.

Actually depending on the time and nation they do kill people for rape. We don't in the US (though we sometimes throw teenagers in jail for sex with the consent of both partners....)

But, with Vaughan, the crime isn't just rape. Not only does one of the women at the wedding get killed (granted not by his hand directly) but I believe I read somewhere women he kidnaped earlier often ended up dead.

So that is beyond rape. Rape is involved but there seems to be more.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I would have thought that dwarves, elves, or mages would react to one of their own being the new Teyrn of Gwaren.

Extremely good point.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cheap labor. And they are completely outside the nobility / feudal framework, so they are far more likely to be fanatically loyal to a crown that gives them some rights. 

Empowering city elves ----> path to real citizenship ----> centralization and a weakened nobility. 

Also a good point.  I tend to view at least some decisions from an ethical point of view as well but this is actually a very good amoral argument for doing something I'd support.

Modifié par pplr, 11 janvier 2012 - 10:58 .

[gandanlin]

With respect to the Romani, I support projects such as the following:

http://svinia.org/

There has been a measure of success in improving the conditions many Romani people live in.  And it is not at all a waste to try to help people in need.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

But how to roleplay that in DAO with City Elves I couldn't begin to say.

[blothulfur]

Looking at it from a Machiavellian stand point, i'd keep the elves around, throw them the promise of jam tomorrow and whatever scraps are needed to keep them quiet. This way when any civil unrest arises I can make scapegoats of the vile outsiders and misplace the blame that should rightfully rest on my own shoulders.

In the ensuing chaos I can eliminate rivals, rob and pillage while condemning the violence and lawlessness. Then when the strife dies down I institute draconian reforms that consolidates my power, with the backing of the nobility and merchant classes who fear a return to the lawlessness I created.

Always good to have a recognisable enemy when you're oppressing the majority in a feudal monarchy.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Your CE is dead either way so you might as well kill him too.

That's your motive? Really, seriously?

Well beg my bloody pardon for disagreeing on that! I am not going to murder someone just because of an emotional argument, end of story and the CE has to flee anyway so he/she might as well do it with a pouch of coin and if you really care about your fellow elves better that you be found guilty and not someone else.

Rape is a not crime that warrants the death sentence, and I don't give a **** what anyone argues on that.

You are forgetting Vaughn's murders.  And what the CE is doing is *not* murder.  CE female is most certainly self-defense.  CE male is vigilantism and perhaps inciting a riot.

Waste of resources and time, they would need training, education, employment, that's a lot of cash for a whole bunch of nothing. In my country we have Gypsies, oh pardon Romani people, that are in a very similar situation to what the CEs are in, and the last thing you would want to do with them is invest that kind of cash, it would be all wasted.

Not that I'm a bleeding heart liberal (I'm not sure what the European political equivalent is) but I think your philosophy of allowing useless mouths to do nothing but consume national resources and contribute to the crime rate is not exactly a sustainable socio-economic system, let alone a desirable one for a backwards Ferelden to compete with the likes of Orlais, let alone the Qunari if they can't resist their sweet-tooth and invade.

[Joy Divison]

Why is there no "delete double post" button?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 12 janvier 2012 - 06:22 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Not that I'm a bleeding heart liberal (I'm not sure what the European political equivalent is) but I think your philosophy of allowing useless mouths to do nothing but consume national resources and contribute to the crime rate is not exactly a sustainable socio-economic system, let alone a desirable one for a backwards Ferelden to compete with the likes of Orlais, let alone the Qunari if they can't resist their sweet-tooth and invade.

For the Romani...well they have rights as a minority, but they got them years ago but they do squat with them.

As for the City Elves, I already said I would sell them all into slavery.

As for Vaughn, I will not kill anyone in any situation in a game just based on a emotional argument, I will do so with practical ones as well, and I don't have a practical one for him even as CE.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 janvier 2012 - 09:51 .

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

but the slide reads that Alistair's agreements with Anora surprised her.

I remember that what surprised her was Alistair making an effort to govern, not that they are in agreement. I could be misremembering though.

But I really doubt that a hardened Alistair would see Anora eye to eye, especially if Loghain is alive.

Alistair makes an effort to govern and agrees with her decisions in court. I suppose it doesn't really matter, since there doesn't seem to be any indication that the developers will follow up on Queen Anora or her ambitious plans (where she was pretty much ignored in favor of Alistair in Dragon Age II), as well as the personality hardened or not Alistair as King not factoring in any way to his appearance or conduct.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seemed like Alistair's decision about the Alienage focused on allowing a member of the Alienage to sit at the royal court, rather than where the finances should be focused. Even with a pairing between Alistair and Anora, the map from Witch Hunt noted that the Alienage was suffering from the effects of the Fifth Blight, while the rest of Denerim had improved. I suppose this could simply be the writers not addressing the possible scenerios of who could be the ruler of Ferleden for this particular DLC, though.

Far more likely that they forgot. A  riot happening under Anora and not Alistair is very likely due to finances.
And I think that putting an elf representative in the Royal court  is too early a move.

I wouldn't be inclined to agree about it being "too early," but again, I doubt it really matters anymore. We see plenty of events and characters contradicted already. In fact, the novel "Asunder" seems to indicate that Anders and Hawke's actions didn't even matter for the mage rebellion, since they apparently didn't factor at all into the mages or templars splitting from the Chantry.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't expect to see the complexity of Arcturus' plans for Ferelden implemented in Dragon Age anytime soon.

Me neither. And after DA2, I do not expect any political issue to be handled even decently.

Especially since Anora is pretty much ignored, but then again, it might be for the best; the references don't always tend to be positive, like how all the non-HN royal boons that are explicitly mentioned seem to be negative - the Dalish are apparently killed in the Hinterlands (from what King Alistair implied to Merrill), the Magi boon is turned down (despite the evidence to the contrary in the Origins Epilogue, especially with a lack of an independent Orzammar Circle if the boon is requested), and the slide from Origins had The City Elf Warden as the only Bann who was successful out of all the avaliable options (with Shianni getting killed and Soris leaving), so his (or her) absense due to the demands of the Plot is detrimental to the Alienage.

[pplr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for Vaughn, I will not kill anyone in any situation in a game just based on a emotional argument, I will do so with practical ones as well, and I don't have a practical one for him even as CE.

If you feel death should be repaid in kind-not just for the emotional revenge style argument or the idea that the only justice Vaughan will face is that which the protagonist brings upon him but that attacks unrepaid will only invite more attacks that is a very practical reason for someone from the CE elf community to kill Vaughan.

From the non-CE standpoint.... he is a ****** poor leader and a lousy person to put into a position of authority. If there was a different way to remove him from that post instead of killing him then go with it but it seems not to exist during the game.

How is he a poor leader? The guy causes unneeded and unnecessary riots for no other cause than his own willingness to be an as____e.

You talked up Vlad in an interesting way as one who unified a state and had to be ruthless with other nobles to break their habit of tearing things apart. Thus Vlad made things work and actually brought about law, order, and-perhaps-growth for his state as a whole.

He was ruthless to the point that his name is still remembered for the blood on his hands but you pulled out a few qualities of his. People may still be horrified by what Vlad did and may reasonably ask if it was all necessary (sure defeating the other nobles may have been needed to unit the region but was all everything he did beyond that needed-I mean everything down to that one soldier's death). But beyond all that you saw some of the positive (or at least seemingly positive at first glance) aspects of Vlad's rule. Vaughan lacks those positives and, if anything, is likely disrupt the smooth flow of things (what Vlad conquered and crushed-at least partly-to create and maintain).

Modifié par pplr, 12 janvier 2012 - 05:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...
From the non-CE standpoint.... he is a ****** poor leader and a lousy person to put into a position of authority. If there was a different way to remove him from that post instead of killing him then go with it but it seems not to exist during the game.

That also makes him very easy to manipulate and it makes more sense to eliminate him after you've acquired legitimate authority and to eliminate him via due process of law. Which is what my canon would do.

Murdering him on the otherhand, I'd argue, is not a good way to portray yourself.

Which is one reason why I had hoped that we could have spared Howe.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That also makes him very easy to manipulate and it makes more sense to eliminate him after you've acquired legitimate authority and to eliminate him via due process of law. Which is what my canon would do.

Murdering him on the otherhand, I'd argue, is not a good way to portray yourself.

Which is one reason why I had hoped that we could have spared Howe.

What would you have done with Howe? Isn't your Cousland Warden owed "blood rights" for what happened to your family?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
What would you have done with Howe? Isn't your Cousland Warden owed "blood rights" for what happened to your family?

Either thrown him in his own dungeon, or captured him and presented him to the Landsmeet, with Queen Anora testifying that Howe captured her. He would be put on trial and judged accordingly. 

Even if my HN had the "right" to murder him, there are far more important things at stake than his blood rights. Murdering Howe before the Landsmeet looks bad, especially for one aspiring to become prince-consort.

[Costin_Razvan]

If you feel death should be repaid in kind-not just for the emotional revenge style argument or the idea that the only justice Vaughan will face is that which the protagonist brings upon him but that attacks unrepaid will only invite more attacks that is a very practical reason for someone from the CE elf community to kill Vaughan.

The practical way would be to accept his offer, find his father and tell him everything. Urien would be quite pissed I imagine. ( not for the suffering the elves endured, but because his son shamed the family name ).

That's a more practical solution in my eyes. Better yet tell Cailan.

In regards to Vlad, I cannot stress it enough but no one here in Romania views him as a monster. Hell he is universally praised as a great hero.

It's not blind hero worship mind you, most people don't know every detail of his reign, but what people commonly know is this: He was cruel to all who broke the law, incorruptible, fair to his subjects who obeyed the law and that he impalled thousands.

Common legends have it that he would allow anyone with any legitimate grievance to see him about it, one such legend is about two merchants who were accusing one another of tricking the other. Tepes heard them out, impalled the lying one and gave some money to the one who honest.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:33 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


Rape is a not crime that warrants the death sentence, and I don't give a **** what anyone argues on that.

I agree, death penalty is too quick and painless for the crime of rape. I would much rather utilize slow torture, mutilation, and dismemberment. Especially divesting said person of manhood to remove future potential threats he might pose to my safety and wellbeing. After said deeds are done, I would be delighted to release the individual back into society. Minus his manhood, hands, eyesight, ect. Where he can live out his existance never threatening another person again. Threat neutralized.


Though I've never played the city elf male, the city elf female I have played. Self defense and preservation is about as logical a reason as any to justify ending Vaughn's existance. Not tomention, on what basis do you have for accepting the offer? Show me the money first. He doesn't. For all you know, he's full of ****, and have no logical reason to believe he will even give you the money. He does have a sword to his throat, he could very well be saying anything to save his hide. Not to mention since the CE is in the middle of a house raid, they could pretty much take what they want anyway without his blessings.

I can't think of any logical reason why a CE would let him live. The alienage is going to get purged anyway, only a complete docile fool would believe otherwise. The alienage gets purged and attacked on a pretty normal basis, often for no reason other than sh*ts and giggles or because humans think there's too many elves.  They will attack regardless if Vaughn lives or dies, and you really don't need metagaming to figure this out. A smart CE would have lived with this inevitability their whole life.

So, if you can pretty much take what you want, in theory from Vaughn, and thus, have coin in your pocket without his blessing, and your neighborhood is going to burn or get attacked as a fact of life in Ferelden, and well, if you're a female, he just attempted to rape you and thus, inflict bodily harm upon you........ it seems more retarded and illogical to let him live.

[Joy Divison]

Why are you people using the term murder with Howe and Vaughn?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...


Rape is a not crime that warrants the death sentence, and I don't give a **** what anyone argues on that.

I agree, death penalty is too quick and painless for the crime of rape. I would much rather utilize slow torture, mutilation, and dismemberment. Especially divesting said person of manhood to remove future potential threats he might pose to my safety and wellbeing. After said deeds are done, I would be delighted to release the individual back into society. Minus his manhood, hands, eyesight, ect. Where he can live out his existance never threatening another person again. Threat neutralized.

What about female rapists?


I personally can tolerate a lot of heinous acts on pragmatic grounds, but rape serves no purpose and like sadism, disgusts me. Likewise, this excessive punishment serves no purpose, so I do not endorse it.

I am with Costin on this one, I do not think it deserves the death sentence unless it is done by a repeated offender (I could settle for neutralizing his / her sex organs however). Otherwise, I think a long prison sentence and a hefty fine should suffice in most cases.

[Costin_Razvan]

Joy Divison wrote...

Why are you people using the term murder with Howe and Vaughn?

Because it is murder? In the case of Vaughn he is the law, and in the case of Howe you are just a noble on the run. Killing is not justified murder from the perspective of an individual, it's justified from the perspective of the law and the state and in neither of these cases is it justified by the state.

 
I am with Costin on this one, I do not think it deserves the death sentence unless it is done by a repeated offender (I could settle for neutralizing his / her sex organs however). Otherwise, I think a long prison sentence and a hefty fine should suffice in most cases.  

I'd argue "reeducation" would be the best possible solution for any crime. Most serious criminals are ****ed up people mentally when you talk about rape and murder, but of course eye for an eye is something people love doing these days.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 janvier 2012 - 11:21 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


What about female rapists?

I'm all for equal rights. So a she rapist would certainly recieve the same general treatment, with a few adjustments made due to their different "equipment. Since a female would not have something to remove, I would go with welding her bits shut, as well cut off her hands, since those would most likely be the body parts with which she committed the offense.

I personally can tolerate a lot of heinous acts on pragmatic grounds, but rape serves no purpose and like sadism, disgusts me. Likewise, this excessive punishment serves no purpose, so I do not endorse it.

I am with Costin on this one, I do not think it deserves the death sentence unless it is done by a repeated offender (I could settle for neutralizing his / her sex organs however). Otherwise, I think a long prison sentence and a hefty fine should suffice in most cases.

In the states, the majority of rapists are repeat offenders (I think I heard something like 2/3 repeatedly offend). Since "rehabilitation" and the revolving door prison system does not seem to work, I find castration and mutilation about the only sure fire way to prevent reoffending.

In the case of Vaughn and Ferelden society, things are different, but the basic principles are the same. I got the very strong impression that this isn't the first time Vaughn has done this (remember Leliana's song, where he could be heard abusing and possibly raping a servant behind closed doors). And its pretty clear nothing has been done about it, or will, since Ferelden's justice system does not really care about elves. Then it becomes a case of taking the law into your own hands.

Which is something I am perfectly okay with when the system is nonmexistant and won't do anything. If the law does not care about me and will not remove a clear and obvious threat to public safety, then I will remove it myself when it is trying to attack or harm me.

If there was an option to have Vaughn arrested, and thrown in prison with a big Qunari cell mate named Bubba who will make Vaughn his **** (and pimp him out for smokes and drugs to the other qunari inmates) then I would have felt this option was more than acceptable, and would have taken it. However, this option was not available, and would probably never come to pass, so I do the next best thing: remove him from the gene pool.

Edit to add: And as you mentioned above, there's alot of crimes I can tolerate or accept on pragmatism or necessity. There are times when you must kill someone to protect yourself, achieve a goal, or remove a threat. If one is hungry, or in need of something, than stealing or robbery might be more understandable. As well as many forms of criminal activity, there are times when it is a necessity, or serves some useful purpose.

Like you said, rape is a crime that serves no purpose. One does not rape to defend one's self, nor does rape provide any other normal, healthy, necessity or reason. It is purely a selfish,m violent act designed to humiliate, degrade, destroy the victim while feeding the offender's desire for power and sadistic dominance. What makes rape or sex crimes especially revolting to me is that it uses sex, a beautiful, pleasureable act that can create life, and turns it into a weapon that destroys all that and more. The perversion of the act of physical love is what makes me the sickest, and that perversion in the mind of the rapist is something I feel puts them in a different class of criminal, and deserve "special rehabilitiation".

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 15 janvier 2012 - 04:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

No I understand the choice of killing him. I think Arcturus might kill him later, though he'd make sure to present another case for his judgement that nobles would find more horrific (like "evidence" that Vaughn killed his father).

As for reeducation. It is extremely expensive and as materialistic as that might sound, I'd rather not spend that much money on crazy criminals. Prisons are also expensive. I am starting to wonder if the Chinese have the right idea in forcing prisoners into labor.