12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No I understand the choice of killing him. I think Arcturus might kill him later, though he'd make sure to present another case for his judgement that nobles would find more horrific (like "evidence" that Vaughn killed his father).

As for reeducation. It is extremely expensive and as materialistic as that might sound, I'd rather not spend that much money on crazy criminals. Prisons are also expensive. I am starting to wonder if the Chinese have the right idea in forcing prisoners into labor.

Had there been some logical way for me to let him live, I would have taken it. Killing your main antagonist at the beginning of the game is anti-climatic. Had the option been there to turn him over to the justice system, only to have them smack him on the wrist and release him later, so I could enjoy one nice, epic showdown (like the HN and Howe) then I would have totally gone that route, for RP purposes as well as others. But sadly, I only had two choices: let him live and trust that he will give me a bunch money for it, or kill him. And since I RP my characters as much true to their origin/life as possible, the only logical choice for my CE female would have been to kill Vaughn, loot his mansion, and make a run for it.

Believe it or not, I am actually fully in favor of forcing inmates into labor. We used to, until pretty recently, make prisoners work (hence the old prison sentances of time+hard labor). Some prisons still do, as you can sometimes see large prison work details in their bright orange suits along the highway picking up garbage. I would like to see this re-instated. Since prisoners are living off tax dollars despite being burdens and menaces to society, rather than keep them in a comfy cell, I'd rather they be forced to at least physically repay their debts to society. They committed the crime of their own free will, they should be made not only to accept the consequences, but repairations should be extracted in some form. Labor is the most productive way of doing this, I think.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Why are you people using the term murder with Howe and Vaughn?

Because it is murder? In the case of Vaughn he is the law, and in the case of Howe you are just a noble on the run. Killing is not justified murder from the perspective of an individual, it's justified from the perspective of the law and the state and in neither of these cases is it justified by the state.

It's not murder if the "victim" and their associates (who outnumber you) are armed and have already used those weapons to commit violence (and in Howe's case actually makes it clear he will atack you).

You might feel it isn't justified, practical, or very nice and that is fine.

But it is not murder.

[Costin_Razvan]

You go into Howe's mansion and start killing people, it's murder.

As for practical that's a different story. But murder is murder.

[Mike3207]

It is murder with Vaughn, he has no opportunity to defend himself. Last I checked, Howe and all his guards are armed. There's no way that can be called murder.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Mike Smith wrote...

It is murder with Vaughn, he has no opportunity to defend himself. Last I checked, Howe and all his guards are armed. There's no way that can be called murder.

Vaughn I don't consider murder. He is armed, after all, and does try and fight you. Its not like you snuck into his room when he was alone, unarmed, and helpless. He and his pals are armed, he has every opportunity to defend himself and does.

I'm not interested in the legal definition of murder, that is subject to change from culture to culture, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I'm more interested in the philisophical definition of murder. Since Vaugh did drag my female elf into his mansion against her will, it is not as if she is breaking and entering his home, she was kidnapped. When she confronted Vaughn, after fighting her way through the house guards (not murder in my book either, since she is trying to escape an illegal imprisonment, and the guards are attacking and attempting to foil her escape attempts), he is armed, surrounded by friends, its not murder. He ain't helpless, and he is defending himself.

Now, if the CE had escaped, then slipped back in one night while Vaughn was asleep or otherwise helpless and not in a position to dfend himself, then I would probably count that as murder on the philisophical front, or at least, vigilante homicide. or whatever. As far as the male CE goes, I really can't say, as I have never played it, I only learned about it from others. The scenario is slightly different, since the male CE has not been kidnapped, his bride has. I do not know if the male CE himself is being directly threatened. However, he is rescusing someone who has been kidnapped and imprisoned illegally against their will, for the purposes of sexual abuse and exploitation, so its a different scenario alltogether.

Again, as I said, the legal/official definition of murder does not concern me, my philisophical interpretation of it does. Killing Vaughn, at least on the CE female side of things, most definitely doesn't constitute a murder in my book.

[Costin_Razvan]

From my PoV Vaughn's death and Howe's death is murder. That Vaughn and Howe are armed constitute a BS argument especially in the case of Howe where you go in the Dungeon with the express desire of confronting him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 janvier 2012 - 08:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mike Smith wrote...

It is murder with Vaughn, he has no opportunity to defend himself. Last I checked, Howe and all his guards are armed. There's no way that can be called murder.

That's like saying if I break into someone's home, and kill the owner who arms himself and attempts to defend his property, I wouldn't have committed murder. Yes Howe was armed and he attacked, but he was defending his property.

The only way Howe's killing can be seen as not murder is if you say that Anora as Queen gave you permission, but that would be a messy argument and of dubious legality.

In any case, it's semantics and my initial argument, which still stands, is that it looks bad. I would rather avoid it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Howe is definitely not murder (though in the HN case, it might be, depending). For the other origins, Howe is little more than a name you've heard, you have no history with him, there is no reason for a non-HN to have any ill feelings. You're there to rescue Anora (whether she is really being held captive is not the issue, your Warden needs her free, and Howe is the only thing that stands between you and your objective). Howe attacks you, you defend yourself. End of story.

The fact that you broke into his mansion isn't really an issue. He is, supposedly, holding the queen, the head of state, as a prisoner, an act that would be considered treason by most. Your Warden and co become not burglars, but a sort of spec ops team designed to infiltrate and liberate a head of state being held captive. That's no more murder than a special forces team infiltrating and killing hostage takers in their mission to free an important dignitary.

Howe is armed, Howe attacks you. Not murder in my book. It would be murder if he did not have Anora hostage, and you went into his house with the sole purpose of killing him for vengance or whatever, and nothing else. But this is not the case. You are not sent to Howe's estate for the sole purpose of killing him, nor is this even really a motive for non-HN Wardens. You are being sent there to rescue Anora. Killing Howe only comes up during this rescue attempt, when you discover you must confront him to release Anora.

So no, Howe is not murder. In the most basic sense, it is execution for an act of Treason, as I think holding the head of state prisoner certainly counts as treason.

Examples of actions in game that I would classify as murder:

Killing Vaughn in Howe's dungeon (he is unarmed, imprisoned, helpless, and unable to fight back, even if he does have it coming).

Killing Avernus

Killing Lloyd

Most murder-knife scenarios in game

Just off the top oif my head.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Of course I am talking about Howe from the perspective of the HN (I specified that Arcturus would not have killed him).

The thing about Anora is only valid if the Warden recognizes her authority as head of state. But the Warden can not only not support her, but he / she can overthrow the landsmeet by force even if Anora sides with Loghain. In this scenario, it would be of dubious legality.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 janvier 2012 - 09:58 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course I am talking about Howe from the perspective of the HN (I specified that Arcturus would not have killed him).

The thing about Anora is only valid if the Warden recognizes her authority as head of state. But the Warden can not only not support her, but he / she can overthrow the landsmeet by force even if Anora sides with Loghain. In this scenario, it would be of dubious legality.

Well yes, with the HN, the whole scenario does become different. However, only one of my Wardens was a human noble, so I am speaking from the perspective of non-HNs. And whether they loved or hated her, most of my Wardens did see and aknowledge her as the rightful head of state of Ferelden. Regardless of race or origin, and regardless if they themselves personally aknowledge her position and authority as relates to them personally. Kind of like, even if I do not like a particular leader of another nation and did not submit myself to their authority personally, I still aknowledge the fact that they are the head of state of that nation.

Now, if you are playing a Warden who has their own ideas, ambitions, ect, then its different. It would certainly be different for Arcturus, who is far more invested personally and politicially, than it would be for Monica, who has no real vested interest in the hairy nature of politics, and is rescuing who she sees at the rightful head of state for Ferelden.

So like you said, it really is a matter of perspective, which changes signifigantly from origin to origin.

[HiroVoid]

Technically, you are murdering the guards since they're just paid to defend the property.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

From my PoV Vaughn's death and Howe's death is murder. That Vaughn and Howe are armed constitute a BS argument especially in the case of Howe where you go in the Dungeon with the express desire of confronting him.

You may think it is a BS argument, but even an average DA will know a jury of 12 people will never come to a unanimous guilty verdict for murder so that is not what the CE or Warden would be charged with.

And the Warden does not go into Howe's mansion with the intention to confront him.

Mike Smith: Vaughn and his two associates are armed like Howe is.

 

[Aule42]

All this "murdering" talk is just petty detail. What counts is the fact that you killed them. There, less people to get in your way now. Dont forget to have your dog eat the evidence on the way out.

[pplr]

I missed a decent chunk of the discussion for the past few days but I notice we got on the "murder" theme.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't a CE be acting in either self-defense or the defense of a friend and ally-an ally he refuses to release even when confronted and trying to talk his way out of the situation?

And there is also the *huge* point that Vaughan (or his men) have been killing off some of the elves he rapes.

Thus he and his henchmen are involved in committing murders. I agree that rape is not a capital punishment worthy crime, but it is not the only crime he is involved in.

Oh, while I can go with the idea of having Howe and Vaughan brought up on charges later one has to ask just how likely would that be.  In most modern nations there is an established judicial system to rely on (corruption can hinder this).  In Ferelden there may or may not be as you don't really see much in terms of law enforcement outside of Denerim and even then there it has difficulties upholding its mission.

Modifié par pplr, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:41 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Joy Divison wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

From my PoV Vaughn's death and Howe's death is murder. That Vaughn and Howe are armed constitute a BS argument especially in the case of Howe where you go in the Dungeon with the express desire of confronting him.

You may think it is a BS argument, but even an average DA will know a jury of 12 people will never come to a unanimous guilty verdict for murder so that is not what the CE or Warden would be charged with.

And the Warden does not go into Howe's mansion with the intention to confront him.

Mike Smith: Vaughn and his two associates are armed like Howe is.

 

Let me be clear: Justification for murdering them exists, be it pragmatic, logical, whatever, I don't deny that, but whatever that justification is it is still murder.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...
Oh, while I can go with the idea of having Howe and Vaughan brought up on charges later one has to ask just how likely would that be.  In most modern nations there is an established judicial system to rely on (corruption can hinder this).  In Ferelden there may or may not be as you don't really see much in terms of law enforcement outside of Denerim and even then there it has difficulties upholding its mission.

I would not be so foolish as to trust senechals to do it on their own. What I would want is the *appearance* of a just trial. The reality however is that their fate would have already been decided by Arcturus.

[Costin_Razvan]

A capital punishment by the law is one thing, going into their homes, or their bedrooms ( in the case of a CE female ) with the intent of killing them, is frankly murder.

And by doing this you are not above them in any way or form. Hell what the Warden does in the game, forced by the game, is actually worse then what Howe and Vaughn do in some situations ( I think of Haven ). That the game forces the player to do something she or he might not want is no justification however.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 05:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
And by doing this you are not above them in any way or form.

Killing those who not only rape your kind but also murder them does not bring you to their level (unless you end up massacring the Howe family and raping Vaughn's kind).
Whether it's smart or practical is a different issue.

Hell what the Warden does in the game, forced by the game, is actually worse then what Howe and Vaughn do in some situations ( I think of Haven ). That the game forces the player to do something she or he might not want is no justification however.

I don't think of Haven as bad at all, I would have totally either eliminated this dangerous cult who stood in the way of my designs, or severily weakened it and forcibly deported them elsewhere. 

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't think of Haven as bad at all, I would have totally either eliminated this dangerous cult who stood in the way of my designs, or severily weakened it and forcibly deported them elsewhere.

Yet from a game perspective you are butchering an entire village just for Eamon's sake, argue all you want from an RP perspective. We both know our Wardens matter squat in the end, and it's for that reason I can't replay Origins ( besides ****ty combat and cliche story ).

Hell from Bioware's perspective it's Hawke who's "the most important person in Thedas"

Off-Topic: It's why I also like Mass Effect a lot more then crap **** of Bioware. At least our Shepards matter in all three games, at least their choices have some direct consequence and they grow as characters over those 3 games. I was watching a vid from Bioware Pulse on the writting of ME3. They say they have 8 writters now and 2 editors as opposed to 6 writters and 1-2 editors in ME2.

I was thinking about what Mac Walters said some time ago, that the characters in ME2 where the story and I've come to the conclusion that for the 2nd game they didn't really care about the main story, though I consider the whole main story, especially the ending of ME2 far above the piece of trash DA:O had for a final battle.

However I think they wanted to flesh out the Universe more then wanting to tell a story. That's why we have so many squad members, though yes some are just **** and one has a useless loyalty mission from all perspectives ( Jacob ) I do think most of them are interesting, and show something of the ME universe.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't think of Haven as bad at all, I would have totally either eliminated this dangerous cult who stood in the way of my designs, or severily weakened it and forcibly deported them elsewhere.

Yet from a game perspective you are butchering an entire village just for Eamon's sake, argue all you want from an RP perspective.

Since it's an RPG with a nearly blank PC, of course the argument that will matter is an RP perspective.
Besides, it's that village that initiates aggression.

Sure, the entire quest was justified very badly, no one is denying that. But that doesn't make what the Warden does necessarily bad, it will depend on their intention.

Off-Topic: It's why I also like Mass Effect a lot more then crap **** of Bioware. At least our Shepards matter in all three games, at least their choices have some direct consequence and they grow as characters over those 3 games.

lol what? Shepard grew as a character?
Consequences to choices? Seriously?

Shepard doesn't matter, he / she is just a brute runing around and killing everything. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2012 - 02:43 .

[Joy Divison]

I really don't think you can compare the morality of a privileged noble male who kidnaps, rapes, and murders people purely for fun and bc/ he knows he can get away with it with that of a kidnapped women who no legal recourse, who has seen her friends raped and killed by said noble, and whose friends are still held captive by said human noble who is armed and refuses to hand them over.

So totally different it really isn't a discussion.

[Costin_Razvan]

Shepard doesn't matter, he / she is just a brute runing around and killing everything.

Wait, what? That's Hawke. Shepard can engage in intelligent conversations and even have people stand down, like the Batarian in Bring Down the Sky, or Wrex, or the Exo-Geni guy on Feros, Tombs, Major Kyle, The Biotic Extremists off the top of my head.

In ME2 you have Morinth, the Batarians on Mordin's recruitment mission, Zaeed's loyalty ending where if you choose Paragon can persuade him to understand certain values about how to work as a team, Tali's trial, The Reporter, the Interrogation on Thane's mission, Shepard's moral and/or pragmatic stance on Mordin's mission, Garrus's loyalty mission ending where he can get him to understand how the Universe is or let him be Sniper Batman.

I can go on, but my point stands about Shepard. He is not flawless but he is better then the blank state, expressionless warden. It's great that we can picture our Wardens in a special way, but let's face it the way you can play your warden in-game doesn't match Arcturus or Dain.

[Addai]

You're bothered by Haven? It's a blood cult, they're using human sacrifice. It's not the most relevant issue for the Warden trying to stop the Blight, but I don't have any qualms about investigating the disappearances there and then defending myself when they attack in the Chantry.

Shepard is a bland, boilerplate hero and I don't see much development at all.  They say they're going to do more of that in ME3.  We'll see.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 janvier 2012 - 05:36 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Another thing about Haven, is that you can actually go there and not kill any villagers. If you go straight to the Chantry (which I do now), then only the priest and cultists in the Chantry attack you. And without provocation, I might add. When you take this route, without discovering anything weird in the village, you can politely inquire of the reverend father if a Brother Genetivi is there, or if he has heard of the sacred ashes. And he and his cult will attack you, even if you try to leave peacefully. So in this case, its totally self defense, as the cultists attack you in a communal building simply for asking questions.

So no, depending on how you do it, Haven does not necessarily constitute murder. Nor can it be rightly thought that somehow, you are "invading" their home, anymore than someone arriving in some small hick town and asking around for a missing relative is invading anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Shepard doesn't matter, he / she is just a brute runing around and killing everything.

Wait, what? That's Hawke. Shepard can engage in intelligent conversations and even have people stand down, like the Batarian in Bring Down the Sky, or Wrex, or the Exo-Geni guy on Feros, Tombs, Major Kyle, The Biotic Extremists off the top of my head.

In ME1 only and the Warden can do much more impressive things in DA:O and Awakening.

In ME2 you have Morinth, the Batarians on Mordin's recruitment mission, Zaeed's loyalty ending where if you choose Paragon can persuade him to understand certain values about how to work as a team, Tali's trial, The Reporter, the Interrogation on Thane's mission, Shepard's moral and/or pragmatic stance on Mordin's mission, Garrus's loyalty mission ending where he can get him to understand how the Universe is or let him be Sniper Batman.

Already answered all of these before. Shepard has ungodly persuasive abilities based on an idiotic morality system that makes no sense. And not once do I remember Shepard being engaged in any intelligent conversation. At best, he listens and asks questions and someone else sounds smart.

And all of these not only have equivalents in DA:O, but have things that are much better.

I can go on, but my point stands about Shepard. He is not flawless but he is better then the blank state, expressionless warden. It's great that we can picture our Wardens in a special way, but let's face it the way you can play your warden in-game doesn't match Arcturus or Dain.

And the Warden even in-game remains more impressive than Shepard in my eyes.

The Warden can be pro-active and come up with the idea of taking the werewolves to his / her side without anyone telling him/ her. The Warden can be involved in a political situation (the Landsmeet) and can handle it smartly, potentially culminating into a rise to power. The Warden can turn his / her greatest enemy into an ally (Loghain). The Warden can help the Circle move to Orzammar (yea no consequences in later games, just like ME and TW)....etc etc.

All based on skill and  foresight. Shepard either kills or persuades based on a stupid morality system, with little to no cosnequence.