12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Shepard either kills or persuades based on a stupid morality system, with little to no cosnequence.

And what the Warden does has consequence huh? Right. I'd argue persuading Saren to kill himself beats persuading the landsmeet via 4 stupid talent points in Coercion. by a longshot, as does persuading the Admiralty Board at Tali's trial.

Say what you will about the Paragon/Renegade system, at least your skill in that only grows directly via the dialogue options you pick whereas the Warden persuades via 4 talents and 20 cunning. Yes there are bonuses to the Paragon/Renegade system via talents, but that's it bonuses. For the Warden all of his coercion skill comes from bloody talents.

And you cannot win the Landsmeet without using this system. Bash the System in ME all you want but don't forget the DA system that is used!

You cannot persuade the Werewolves to your cause, nor can you have Cauthrien stand down without it, nor can you win the Landsmeet as I mentioned. Nor can you persuade Alistair and Anora to marry without it The Warden without the coertion talents is a good dog following his master's orders. 

Shepard can win Tali's trial without any persuade option if he is clever enough via his choices without any persuade system. That's a hell lot more then the Warden can claim.

Same gioes for Awakening with persuading the nobles, settling a dispute fairly in the best manner etc.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Bash the System in ME all you want but don't forget the DA system that is used!

I am fully aware of its system and I say it's considerably better.

In ME, I am being *punished* for not thinking in a bipolar fashion and adhering  to their idiotic morality. I couldn't play a pragmatist as much as I would have wanted. Instead, I had to be an **** or a naive idiot so that I wouldn't lose content. Not to mention that the entire logic behind it makes no sense.

In DA at least I can *invest* in my character's persuasion without it having any affect or pressure on my choices. I could choose whatever and still be able to unlock these options via a strategic investment on attributes and skills, without  conforming to any idiotic dichotomy and bipolarity. I don't have to worry aobut how much points I have in a morality meter out of fear that the story that I want to play wouldn't be available. The attribute system on the otherhand, if you are willing to invest, does not force you on any path story and choices wise. Is it perfect? No. Does it come remotely close to Deus Ex? No. It still beats the ME system by far. 

As for the Landsmeet vs Saren. Seriously?
You are comparing a potential rise to power with alliances (doesn't need persuasion at all), good arguments and maneuvring that can ultimately culminate into you being master of Ferelden, with convincing Saren to kill himself (which is too abrupt anyways and locked unless you act like an **** or a naive fool throughout)?
Shepard never came even remotely close to being able to display the amount of cunning a warden can have in this scenario alone.

Besides, turning an enemy into an ally is infinitely more impressive.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:27 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Instead, I had to be an **** or a naive idiot so that I wouldn't lose content. Not to mention that the entire logic behind it makes no sense.

I disagree. I played ME1 5 times now and ME2 over 12 times and not once in any of these playthroughs was I thinking, "Oh but I need to act nice to get some good guy points to not have Jack or Miranda pissed off at me" not ONCE. Even in my first playthrough I made choices that came completely natural to me, and as you well know Knight I like to play my characters as practical people but who don't act like dicks in every single situation, and I never came across a situation where I lacked enough points to have my way and I never gave a **** about actually looking at how many points I had.

I am what some people on the ME forums call a parage...oh how I hate the term. I choose what I think suits the situation from my PoV. DA:O has a lot more persuade options then ME1+ME2 have in blue/red choices put together.

As for rise to power, "snorts" tell me Knight where is your rise to power exactly besides some epilogue slides huh? Nowhere that's it.

Let's not forget the approval system. I tried playing DA:O recently and I was constantly thinking "Oh but now I have to act like this to get x approval" I HATE that ****. In ME I like to experiment with the smaller dialogue choices where as in DA:O I feel my companions are riding my ass constantly to say things that please them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I disagree. I played ME1 5 times now and ME2 over 12 times and not once in any of these playthroughs was I thinking, "Oh but I need to act nice to get some good guy points to not have Jack or Miranda pissed off at me" not ONCE. Even in my first playthrough I made choices that came completely natural to me, and as you well know Knight I like to play my characters as practical people but who don't act like dicks in every single situation, and I never came across a situation where I lacked enough points to have my way.

I had that problem everytime. When I first played ME1, not only did I not get those special morality missions, but I couldn't convince Saren to kill himself, because I wasn't renegade or paragon enough (and I did everything). Now I just cheat in ME1 and make myself maximum paragon and renegade.

In ME2, I was for instance forced to kill Vito, because I failed to pass the paragon check with Zaeed when I tried to rescue the facility which is the choice I would have gone through. I couldn';t resist Morinth (which pisses me off tremendously), because of this problem as well so I wasn't able to pick between Samarra and Morinth and it made my Shepard look like a weakling, because in Bioware's head you being a uber **** or an uber nice idiot means you have willpower.  

As for rise to power, "snorts" tell me Knight where is your rise to power exactly besides some epilogue slides huh? Nowhere that's it.

*Rise* to power, not holding power itself. Otherwise, I can make the same criticism with Alpha Protocol, it never shows Thorton holding power in the game just acquiring it.

[Costin_Razvan]

I had that problem everytime.

Then we at least understand each other on why we have our views. I don't cheat, nor do I go all out Renegade or Paragon to get there, ever.

As for VIto "Shrug" never gave a **** to save the workers at the cost of letting the head of one of the best organized crime syndicates get away.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for VIto "Shrug" never gave a **** to save the workers at the cost of letting the head of one of the best organized crime syndicates get away.

I would not destroy the factory of one of humanity's most important corporations and industries, when I am aiming for human hegemony politically and economically, to kill one man. I do not care about the workers. 

[Costin_Razvan]

It's just one factory on a criminal world, who cares.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

In a resource rich planet, that can cost Eldfell-Ashland Energy millions of credits if completely destroyed. Not to mention that it would look worse for humanity if they completely failed to protect their investments and workers abroad.

[HiroVoid]

When it comes to the different systems, I honestly prefer DAO's to ME's. That's because I feel like I'm being punished for not having enough persuade points when the persuasion options come up. On the other hand, in DAO, I put points into my character for how I feel they should be. EX: I give my HN and DN 4 talent points into coercion. I put 2 points into my CE and DC. I put no points into my mage or DE. That's because I feel other characters would be more persuasive than others.

[Costin_Razvan]

Knight: It would help other companies if the head of an organized crime syndicate was removed while he was occupying one refinery. Would give them a message that they can't do whatever the hell they please.

If Vido walks away it's worse then losing a factory. If you don't kill Vido they have to spend millions to rebuild anyway.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 08:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Which means they would require tens if not hundreds of millions to build a new one.

Vito can die and another will replace him, his death means little in the long run. In such a situation, I prefer to help said company and its investment and deal with real enforcement (and by that, I do not mean killing one man) later.

In any case, the choice is irrelevant and Bioware most likely never thought about it in these terms.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I really hated the bi polar morality system of ME myself. Like KoP said, it pushes you along artifical morality lines. I paragaded my way through my ME playthrough, because I made descisions based on RP. And I can't realistically or seriously RP a character along one single morality path. There's no neutral spectrum, no middle ground to follow that is aknowledged and dealt with by gameplay mechanics, you either have to be "good" or "evil".

Da didn't have this. While DA's system was far from perfect, it thankfully lacked the idiot morality meter, and you could play a far bigger variety of characters, make choices based on longer term character considerations and plans. Or not. Regardless, I found alot more thinking involved in my choices in DA than ME. Choices and RP value of ME were not that much better than DA2. Same thing. I've only done one playthrough of ME, because i didn't see the point in a second one.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which means they would require tens if not hundreds of millions to build a new one.

Vito can die and another will replace him, his death means little in the long run. In such a situation, I prefer to help said company and its investment and deal with real enforcement (and by that, I do not mean killing one man) later.

In any case, the choice is irrelevant and Bioware most likely never thought about it in these terms.

Do yoy really think they put any real thought in the DA choices? Doubt it.

Vido was the one who created the Blue Suns and has controlled it for years now. I doubt replacing him would be as easy as it sounds. The company does pay you less if you kill him instead of saving the factory, and it's a difference of at least 10.000 credits.

 
 it thankfully lacked the idiot morality meter 

The meter is only there as much as you care about it. To me the morality meters matter squat.

Skadi: to me it's important that I feel the PC is important in a lore sense from outside an RP perspective. The Warden is just a plot tool to kill the Archdemon, and crown two kings, nothing more.

Shepard however has a bigger role in my view. He can get involved in politics outside of the main plot and get into the thick of it in Tali's quest and express different views on the matter. But Tali's quest is optional.

RP-ing is important I grant you, but to me whatever I RP my characters as is pointless and means zero if my PC means zero in the overall shceme of the universe, and the Warden means zero.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Vido was the one who created the Blue Suns and has controlled it for years now. I doubt replacing him would be as easy as it sounds. The company does pay you less if you kill him instead of saving the factory, and it's a difference of at least 10.000 credits.

Much easier than you would make it sound. The Blue suns can always replace him. And if they can't, another criminal organization would replace it.

Don't care about the credits.

[Costin_Razvan]

The PR would be great for the company and the alliance though if they claim they killed the leader of the Blue Suns.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The PR would be greater if they say they saved the refinery and the workers and that they care about the safety of their employees.

In any case, it's an inconsequential issue and I'm too busy to discuss it. Cheers

[Costin_Razvan]

Perhaps, but it could help as well since people would get angry at the Blue Suns, especially if the deaths are placed solely on them. I kinda view them as the Mafia, and one thing one needs to understand about the Mafia is that they continue to exist because people go to them for protection. Hell the blue suns run marketing campaigns of their own.

I admit however I wasn't thinking in those terms at the time. I was thinking that I was there to get a job done as part of the deal with Zaeed, and he wanted Vido dead so it was logical to me. I just viewed his death as a bonus.

Cheers by the way, and easy work. ( 12 hours a day is really too much ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Some things I need to comment on before leaving.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Choices and RP value of ME were not that much better than DA2..

I wouldn't go that far. I found choices in ME at least somewhat interesting (some of them were good) and while yes I feel that my options as Shepard are restricted, at least he / she acts. In DA2 I am forced to tolerate inexplicabe inaction.

Though to be fair to DA2, the dominant personality affects the story and restricts options only once IIRC (siding with Petrice). Still, overall I prefer ME by far. 

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Perhaps, but it could help as well since people would get angry at the Blue Suns, especially if the deaths are placed solely on them. I kinda view them as the Mafia, and one thing one needs to understand about the Mafia is that they continue to exist because people go to them for protection. Hell the blue suns run marketing campaigns of their own.

Interesting way to look at it. If the Blue suns was an alien group, I might have considered doing it that way.

Cheers by the way, and easy work. ( 12 hours a day is really too much ).

Yes it is, but I am starting to delegate more (micor-managing too much is a bad thing).
Thanks!

[Morwen Eledhwen]

We interrupt this broadcast for some art.



Shhhhh... He's sleeping.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I frown when sleeping too...

[Costin_Razvan]

Do you snore too? I bet Geralt snores to wake up an entire calm.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No I've been told I am very quiet when sleeping. And since I am a light sleeper, even the faintest of snores wake me up (and irritate me tremendously).

[Morwen Eledhwen]

It's difficult to draw Loghain without that brow knit at least a little. But yes, I imagine he would frown when sleeping anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

It's difficult to draw Loghain without that brow knit at least a little. But yes, I imagine he would frown when sleeping anyway.

No but it's good, well done!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 janvier 2012 - 04:30 .

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No I've been told I am very quiet when sleeping. And since I am a light sleeper, even the faintest of snores wake me up (and irritate me tremendously).

Heh. I don't snore either, but I am very very hard to wake up.

I once slept through a pretty decent Earthquake ( was around 5-6 I think ). Didn't bother me at all. My brother however tried very hard to wake me.