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[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: Frankly, if the City Elves don't have the desire to change their situation and can't work towards that then they deserve their fate.

What if they physically can't work to change their situation, which I believe is the case?
That's like saying that the casteless deserve their fate for all those centuries of inaction. They simply can't do anything without someone like Bhelen. The only other alternative that I can think of is revolt, which you said is a bad thing. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Knight: Become a Bann as a City Elf, and work with the Monarch/s to improve the situation. That's a start.

You are talking about the Warden, I am talking about the elves in general (what are the chances of that happening?). And there is no way a CE can possibly think like that in the Origin.

[Costin_Razvan]

Then frankly there is no way for the City Elves to change their situation, same for the castless. Revolts won't change anything, and hell they would make it worse.

We both know that without a great leader no one can acomplish anything against racism. Martin Luther KIng Jr. was a remarkable person who fought against racism nonviolently and won. A city elf murdering a noble would work very much against the city elf cause, since the nobility as a whole would be angry, at a CE Warden especially. Racism will NOT be solved with violence.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Precisely.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
My personal belief might be pessimistic to some, but I believe the wise thing the CE can do is for the most part wait until the overall context is in their favor, and help certain trends grow if they do exist. More or less Iorveth's strategy, as he joined a movement (that he helped create) much bigger than himself and the nonhuman question and is more likely to succeed. The nonhuman question in the Witcher needs a Saskia figure for it to start being resolved (as well as a political mind either in that figure or someone behind him / her).

I find the situation similar in DA. The elves need someone from the outside to initiate a trend, a movement, a reform policy that is much larger than them but still benefits them, that they can join.

In essence, they need a Bhelen. Or an Arcturus

But I can understand if elves in general, and that city elf in particular, refuse to just wait and try to take matters into their own hands. I do not agree with it, but I can understand and maybe sympathize (just like I do with regards to Yaevinn). 

[Wulfram]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Based on what exactly? What in the game suggests that somehow Vaughn wouldn't have that kind of power over the lives of the City Elves. Hell we know that Alienages are purged when the population grows too high.

Based on the way that the freedom of Orlais nobles to abuse commoners is contrasted with the rights possessed by the people of Fereldan, and we're specifically told that the elves are better off in Fereldan than Orlais.  And also based on the fact that the Elves are called citizens at the landsmeet.

Citizens have the right not to be subject to kidnapped and raped.

[pplr]

Wulfram wrote...

Citizens have the right not to be subject to kidnapped and raped.

Most pointedly you forgot murdered.

In Orlais a noble is allowed to rape his own subjects (one of the merchants in Denerim mentions this), the fact that she fled to Ferelden indicates the same may not be legal there.

But even if rape was there is not any indication in the game that rulers are legally allowed to murder their subjects in either nation-and that the Ferelden people (elf and human) are referred to as citizens is a good point and an indication nobles are not allowed to.

[Costin_Razvan]

Based on the way that the freedom of Orlais nobles to abuse commoners is contrasted with the rights possessed by the people of Fereldan, and we're specifically told that the elves are better off in Fereldan than Orlais. And also based on the fact that the Elves are called citizens at the landsmeet.

Citizens have the right not to be subject to kidnapped and raped.

Who exactly calls the Elves citizens besides the Warden? Oh wait, no one. The only noble who actually gives a **** at that line didn't know you were talking about elves, no one in the Landsmeet really gives a **** about them. In Orlais elves were slaves until Celene took power, doesn't mean that in Fereldan the elves have rights or anything, they don't. They are in the same pot as the castless.

Excuse me if I don't take anything the Warden says as factual.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:43 .

[pplr]

Nonetheless selling Ferelden people-even elves-into slavery is viewed as a bad thing in the Landsmeet and it costs Loghain (makes him less popular and more likely to loose the vote).

This indicates that even the nobility feel there is a line on how badly elves can be treated and they feel that line should not be crossed (which Loghain went below).

Modifié par pplr, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:48 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I never argued elves were slaves mind you, nor do I think that the castless are so. But they still don't have any rights in Fereldan. That Fereldan does not accept slavery is a different matter.

It should be noted that the only noble who actually cares has to be persuaded to do so if I recall correctly about the option.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

nvm misunderstood.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
It should be noted that the only noble who actually cares has to be persuaded to do so if I recall correctly about the option.

No. Persuasion is never used in the Landsmeet.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It should be noted that the only noble who actually cares has to be persuaded to do so if I recall correctly about the option.

Not persuaded per se BUT:

Depending on your wording, his reaction will vary. Use "Selling Fereldan cititzens" without mentioning their race --> He is outraged. If you use "Selling elves" his reaction is way less involved. Very telling, I think, all things considered. Both will help you win the vote though.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
It should be noted that the only noble who actually cares has to be persuaded to do so if I recall correctly about the option.

No. Persuasion is never used in the Landsmeet.

Uhm it is Knight it very much is. Maybe not in that case but without persuasion you can't win the Landsmeet without resulting a big fight.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:05 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
It should be noted that the only noble who actually cares has to be persuaded to do so if I recall correctly about the option.

No. Persuasion is never used in the Landsmeet.

Er, yes, when talking to Loghain, it most certainly is. I.E. "The Blight is the threat here, not Orlais." has (Persuade) in front of it and a check. Don't know how high though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's the only one and it had no bearing on the outcome. Anora, slave argument, torture, Ativan crow.....etc etc can win you through it.

I know, because I won a landsmeet with a warden with no persuasion at all.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's the only one and it had no bearing on the outcome. Anora, slave argument, torture, Ativan crow.....etc etc can win you through it.

I know, because I won a landsmeet with a warden with no persuasion at all.

How exactly? You need Wulf to side with you to win and Wulf will not side with you unless you persuade him.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's the only one and it had no bearing on the outcome. Anora, slave argument, torture, Ativan crow.....etc etc can win you through it.

I know, because I won a landsmeet with a warden with no persuasion at all.

No Coercion skill at all?

Wow.....never tried that. Now I'm going to have to do that. Because some replies (Even without Persuade in front of it still need to pass a Coercion check)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How exactly? You need Wulf to side with you to win and Wulf will not side with you unless you persuade him.

Not how I remember it. The Chantry gives you 2 points, Anora three. Plus Sigard whatever his name, plus slaves.
I do not remember if Wulf said yes or no, but I am posotive that my 2nd warden had no persuasion and very little cunning.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
No Coercion skill at all?

Wow.....never tried that. Now I'm going to have to do that. Because some replies (Even without Persuade in front of it still need to pass a Coercion check)

Odd, I never heard of this.
I am positive that my warden had no coercion. At best, he had one point (I am 100% sure not more than that). And 12 cunning or so.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How exactly? You need Wulf to side with you to win and Wulf will not side with you unless you persuade him.

Not how I remember it. The Chantry gives you 2 points, Anora three. Plus Sigard whatever his name, plus slaves.
I do not remember if Wulf said yes or no, but I am posotive that my 2nd warden had no persuasion and very little cunning.

I just loaded a save and did not use any persuade option. I went through it 3 times and it did not work. If Wulf says no, and he will say no if you don't have persuade, then you won't win.

I had Vaughn and the noble who hired the crows on my side besides Sighard and Alfansa and I still lost. I of course had Anora on my side and presented my evidence.

Now you see why I think the Landsmeet is ****. One can only win with that idiotic mechanic on his side.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:19 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
No Coercion skill at all?

Wow.....never tried that. Now I'm going to have to do that. Because some replies (Even without Persuade in front of it still need to pass a Coercion check)

Odd, I never heard of this.
I am positive that my warden had no coercion. At best, he had one point (I am 100% sure not more than that). And 12 cunning or so.

I don't know for sure, just basing it on what my modder friends who use the toolset constantly told me. I always max out Coercion, so.......

[KnightofPhoenix]

I have no idea what arguments you are picking, but I am 100% sure I won it with no persuasion and the wiki mentions only one argument that requires persuasion and it is not necessary to win.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How exactly? You need Wulf to side with you to win and Wulf will not side with you unless you persuade him.

Not how I remember it. The Chantry gives you 2 points, Anora three. Plus Sigard whatever his name, plus slaves.
I do not remember if Wulf said yes or no, but I am posotive that my 2nd warden had no persuasion and very little cunning.

I just loaded a save and did not use any persuade option. I went through it 3 times and it did not work. If Wulf says no, and he will say no if you don't have persuade, then you won't win.

I had Vaughn and the noble who hired the crows on my side besides Sighard and Alfansa and I still lost. I of course had Anora on my side.

Now you see why I think the Landsmeet is ****. One can only win with that idiotic mechanic on his side.

Strangely enough.... Some time ago I wanted to lose the Landsmeet on purpose.... Anora aside, I used all the bad answers (Except the ONE persuade option in the beginning....) : The ones about Ostagar, Cailan etc. I still won. The Landsmeet sure is a wretched affair.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I have no idea what arguments you are picking, but I am 100% sure I won it with no persuasion and the wiki mentions only one argument that requires persuasion and it is not necessary to win.

The non persuade ones. As in the first one about Alistair, then elves, then mages, then Anora shows up.

Wulf does not side against Loghain if you don't persuade him and if you don't persuade him you will NOT win.

[KnightofPhoenix]

And like I said, I had no persuasion. And the wiki says, he sides with you if you pick that argument with or without persuasion. Maybe that's it.