12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...

Grr...I hate stupidity. I get my full of it in my job as a historian. OK, thanks for the heads up. When I finish the game, I will look forward to reading the analysis you have in your sig as I know you really liked the series...hopefully you don't change you sig until then!

You know the saying, "Truth is stranger than fiction.  Fiction has to make sense."  Or it should, anyway.

BTW what kind of historian are you, if you don't mind answering?  I like to know whose brain I can pick on certain topics. 

[Addai]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Why don't the dozen or so biggest contributors in this thread make a videogame

Currently working on a ten to fifteen hour mod for Skyrim (don't like the game but the engine isn't bad and there's a lot more potential there) with a team of other developers, probably closest I'll get for a while.

Will look for this!  Care to comment what it's about?

[Dave of Canada]

Addai67 wrote...

Will look for this!  Care to comment what it's about?

Basic premise is that you're the son or daughter of a minor lord, you're sent in his stead to a political summit when he catches ill and you must represent your house's best interests while dealing with the drought that plagues the entire kingdom (the reason for the political summit).

I don't care much for the Elder Scrolls universe, unfortunately. Created our own universe trying to avoid high fantasy as much as possible, with some elements of it being tied into some houses. For example: Necromancy is considered holy, the Sisters raise the deceased and it's considered a sacred honor.

I've written a side-quest which you arrive into an idyllic village which is mostly run by animated corpses, the people of the village view the undead as if the relatives weren't simply automatons and it's eerie as you'll see mothers trying to call their undead child into the house and such. 

Trying to take all fantasy elements which the lead design wants and I try to incorperate it into aspects of humanity, the above village obviously being how we coop with deaths of loved ones.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 mars 2012 - 08:14 .

[Addai]

It sounds fascinating, let me know if you need a beta tester.

Thought some of our thread historians might like this quote I read today from Lucian of Samosata:

"Well then, my perfect historian must start with two indispensable qualifications; the one is political insight, the other the faculty of expression; the first is a gift of nature, which can never be learnt; the second should have been acquired by long practice, unremitting toil, and loving study of the classics."
link

Modifié par Addai67, 24 mars 2012 - 08:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

It sounds fascinating, let me know if you need a beta tester.

Thought some of our thread historians might like this quote I read today from Lucian of Samosata:

"Well then, my perfect historian must start with two indispensable qualifications; the one is political insight, the other the faculty of expression; the first is a gift of nature, which can never be learnt; the second should have been acquired by long practice, unremitting toil, and loving study of the classics."
link

I like it!

I've never been a huge fan of seperating political science from history as much as what we have now, at least in Canadian universities. You had political science students operating in theory bubbles that are more often then not detached from reality and history, while on the other hand you had history students who don't care about the political factors both external and domestic (especially the former).

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I've never been a huge fan of seperating political science from history as much as what we have now, at least in Canadian universities. You had political science students operating in theory bubbles that are more often then not detached from reality and history, while on the other hand you had history students who don't care about the political factors both external and domestic (especially the former).

I'm of two minds on that myself.  I'm always suspicious of history that's put to serve an -ism or some utilitarian ideal.  Lucian himself stresses that the historian is no politician- he should not be a person of any state or creed.  The Greek idea of politics is also all civic and public life and not just government, so I think he means one needs to be able to understand human relations and do so in a broad sense, so that you can rise above a view that's constricted by partisan affiliations.

More from him:  "The historian should be fearless and incorruptible; a man of independence, loving frankness and truth; one who, as the poets says, calls a fig a fig and a spade a spade. He should yield to neither hatred nor affection, nor should be unsparing and unpitying. He should be neither shy nor deprecating, but an impartial judge, giving each side all it deserves but no more. He should know in his writing no country and no city; he should bow to no authority and acknowledge no king. He should never consider what this or that man will think, but should state the facts as they really occurred."

Fun fact- the word "idiot" started out referring to someone who was ignorant of political affairs.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree, though I do not mind a historian bringing in his / her own interpretation which will betray his / her bias axiomatically, as long as history is not being distorted to fit that idea or support a pre-determined conclusion.

From my experience, the history being taught does not tackle a lot of crucial factors, like for instance the geo-strategic context, which is important in Poli Sci. Hence why I've taken an interest in military history that does a lot to alleviate that flaw.

[Costin_Razvan]

The guy Addai quoted Knight was Syrian, just going to point that out.

To be fair I agree with him 100%, as a historian you are obligated to look at both sides of the coin and draw conclusions from that: Like me saying for instance saying Hitler was brilliant in the NIght of Long Knives, because it was on many levels, then me going and saying Hitler was an idiot who just made so many mistakes once he took power, because he did.

The problem with studying history is that I feel you should always look at it not from a moral perspective but from a pragmatic one, else your view on things is limited very much so. This is something that not everyone understands though. Hell very few do actually.

Looking at the facts is one thing, but how you look at them is what matters the most.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mars 2012 - 12:00 .

[tklivory]

The problem with studying history is that it is recorded by humans, and thus unreliable from the get-go. All the facts are not recorded, everything is interpreted one way or another, and in the end you are working off of what is essentially a translation of a translation of a translation, with morals, ethics, religion and nationalism serving as the filters those translations are forced through.

Remember that great Rebellion of 1776?  Yeah, neither does anyone else...

Modifié par tklivory, 25 mars 2012 - 12:09 .

[Costin_Razvan]

That's pretty much the case, yes. I look at the Dacian Wars for instance, a lot of what we know is from Trajan's Column. Or you can look at the third servile war and what we know about that. A lot of things that happened just went unrecorded.

I have a cousin who studies old coins...you might think that's a waste of time but in fact what he does has told a lot about what happened during a certain era.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Grr...I hate stupidity. I get my full of it in my job as a historian. OK, thanks for the heads up. When I finish the game, I will look forward to reading the analysis you have in your sig as I know you really liked the series...hopefully you don't change you sig until then!

You know the saying, "Truth is stranger than fiction.  Fiction has to make sense."  Or it should, anyway.

BTW what kind of historian are you, if you don't mind answering?  I like to know whose brain I can pick on certain topics. 

I'm the historian who annoys my colleagues bc/ I don't accept some of the unspoken orthodox assumptions our profession seems to accept as of now


My degree says I study German history and dabble a bit in what has become known as "World History," but I've sat in enough seminars that you could pick my brain on just about anything related to the discipline and I would at least give a stimulating response.

I do think there is a lot of good historical scholarship out there, but it can be difficult find (and recognize) it bc/ people's biases and what the Germans call Weltanschauung (world-view) blind them to perspectives which contradict what they would like to believe.

I do wish more people appreciated the toil, time, and discipline it takes to actually be a (good) historian like Lucian of Samosata.  Being in the humanities can be difficult bc/ a lot of intelligent people think that just because they read two books on a topic, that makes them just as qualified as I am.  Factual knowledge makes a historian not!   I mean, if these people need surgury or legal advice, would they go to their friend who read a couple of books?

KoP - sorry to tell you the profession has been trending away from your preferred direction for the past 40 some odd years and I see no sign of it abating.  Lots of institutions no longer even have a military historian.  I remember sitting in a seminar with over a dozen people and I was the only one who knew what a cataphract was.  And I study the ****s...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 25 mars 2012 - 12:28 .

[TEWR]

Joy Division wrote...

Lots of institutions no longer even have a military historian. I remember sitting in a seminar with over a dozen people and I was the only one who knew what a cataphract was. And I study the ****s...

That's.... disheartening, to say the least. For me anyway.

[Joy Divison]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Division wrote...

Lots of institutions no longer even have a military historian. I remember sitting in a seminar with over a dozen people and I was the only one who knew what a cataphract was. And I study the ****s...

That's.... disheartening, to say the least. For me anyway.

Then be glad I stuck with it since you know there is at least one of us out there who knows their heavy armored cavalry!

Modifié par Joy Divison, 25 mars 2012 - 12:49 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Joy Division: That's the thing that pisses me off the most, people who think they history then they reveal they know jack ****.

[Joy Divison]

It used to bother me, but now I just recognize it comes with the profession. And when I was younger, I certainly was guilty of it at times. By no means does someone need an advanced degree to be a good historian (in fact some of the more provocative books I've read have been written by people who aren't historians), but it does take time, effort, and an appreciation for different ways of thinking that is very difficult to acquire without subjecting your own work to peer review.

What's ironic is that I think I know factually less about the Second World War now than I did ten years ago, but I will put my course up against anything being taught in Harvard or Stanford.

Besides, we don't have it nearly as tough as head coaches of sports teams...

[Mike3207]

Will we see Loghain or Anora as NPCs in DA3, assuming you let Loghain live in your import?

[Costin_Razvan]

Having a degree does not make you a historian by any stretch of the mind. I was for instance talking to a priest just yesterday about Arab and Jewish history, as well as general history, and he knew a lot more about it then most people who have a degree do. Seriously there are so many people who finish college and don't understand squat.

The thing that gets to me the most are the people who claim history is unimportant...right.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mars 2012 - 02:47 .

[TEWR]

Mike_Smith wrote...

Will we see Loghain or Anora as NPCs in DA3, assuming you let Loghain live in your import?

If we do and Orlais invades Ferelden again, I demand that Loghain flip over a table and punch some people -- preferably Orlesians, but I'll settle for him punching anything. Even a demon or two -- and riding off to defend Ferelden once more.

More then likely though, we'll just see him with some paltry one-liner about how he goes "Yea, I did a very bad thing. I'm just a usurper" considering that's the general direction they're taking him, ignoring all reasons for why he did what he did.

His actions were definitely morally repugnant, but the motives behind why he did them were solid methinks. Well, some anyway. I question his decision to poison Eamon by way of Jowan.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 Seriously there are so many people who finish college and don't understand squat.

College is just frat parties, bro. No such thing as an education there.

The thing that gets to me the most are the people who claim history is unimportant...right.

Anyone who truly believes that is a fool.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...
My degree says I study German history and dabble a bit in what has become known as "World History," but I've sat in enough seminars that you could pick my brain on just about anything related to the discipline and I would at least give a stimulating response.

Oh that's two Germanists I've come across on BSN in the past few months.  The other is daqs, he/she studies 19th century.  I take it that you are 20th century from what you said.

I was a German major too *brofist* but for many reasons decided not to go into academia, though I debated very hard both as my undergraduate was wrapping up and again in my early 30s when I was making a life change.  For mostly personal reasons I went in different directions both times.  Anyway, history needs consumers maybe more than it needs another professor (no offense).  I do work for a German company so it was not all for nought, though I'm the low man on the totem pole thanks to my liberal arts frivolity.

But I have the money to spend on scholarly publications so I like to think I contribute in that way.... well, er, the popular works anyway.  I can't afford the really serious stuff since the scholarly publishing market is geared towards libraries who will pay $200 for a book.  Or $1525.00, as I saw this week that a hardcover copy of Theodor Mommsen's History of Rome will set you back. 

I do wish more people appreciated the toil, time, and discipline it takes to actually be a (good) historian like Lucian of Samosata.  Being in the humanities can be difficult bc/ a lot of intelligent people think that just because they read two books on a topic, that makes them just as qualified as I am.  Factual knowledge makes a historian not!   I mean, if these people need surgury or legal advice, would they go to their friend who read a couple of books?

Yeah, true, I have only felt that I come to scratch the surface of getting some things as I've gotten older just because after years of thinking and reading about something, you have a framework with which to understand the little factoids.  That's not something that comes easily.  And of course I'm still just a novice and armchair.

KoP - sorry to tell you the profession has been trending away from your preferred direction for the past 40 some odd years and I see no sign of it abating.  Lots of institutions no longer even have a military historian.  I remember sitting in a seminar with over a dozen people and I was the only one who knew what a cataphract was.  And I study the ****s...

That's a shame.  I'll buy your books, KoP.     As long as they're not $1000.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[Addai]

Mike Smith wrote...

Will we see Loghain or Anora as NPCs in DA3, assuming you let Loghain live in your import?

Very doubtful.  I think someone even asked Gaider this on Twitter- and if he'd be romanceable- and as I recall Gaider made some joke about wanting to romance a corpse.  Loghain is history.  The best we can hope for is a character that's as interesting as he is.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Will we see Loghain or Anora as NPCs in DA3, assuming you let Loghain live in your import?

Very doubtful.  I think someone even asked Gaider this on Twitter- and if he'd be romanceable- and as I recall Gaider made some joke about wanting to romance a corpse.  Loghain is history.  The best we can hope for is a character that's as interesting as he is.

That's just great. Not only has one of their best characters been written off entirely -- having faded into history's annals as "the usurper" -- but now he's been killed by the writer's pen, a sword not even Loghain himself could fend off.

That's it. I'm going back to FFXII. At least that's a game I can play with some astounding political intrigue. I have a feeling that Bioware won't even come near the level of awesome that was Loghain or the Architect ever again, let alone anything close to FFXII's plot -- or the Witcher's. Or... anything else really.

I said it a page or two ago, but now it bears an echoing methinks: I hope to successfully finish my game design course and either create my own video game company or sign myself onto an existing one. If I can do the former, I'll devote myself to making my video game idea come to light.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I can't afford the really serious stuff since the scholarly publishing market is geared towards libraries who will pay $200 for a book. Or $1525.00, as I saw this week that a hardcover copy of Theodor Mommsen's History of Rome will set you back.

And this is my biggest regret for living in my **** country: I can't afford books. My greatest dream is to build a house with a big library in it.

Anyone who truly believes that is a fool.

Most people really do believe that....

The worst part is my own brother is like that, and he's a goddamn doctor who you think would understand a thing or two about intelectual pursuits.

P.S. Seriously **** Gaider for everything he is doing to Loghain. That said I prefer him to be dead then to be ruined...though I strongly believe he will be ruined regardless.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

Oh that's two Germanists I've come across on BSN in the past few months.  The other is daqs, he/she studies 19th century.  I take it that you are 20th century from what you said.

I was a German major too *brofist* but for many reasons decided not to go into academia, though I debated very hard both as my undergraduate was wrapping up and again in my early 30s when I was making a life change.  For mostly personal reasons I went in different directions both times.  Anyway, history needs consumers maybe more than it needs another professor (no offense).  I do work for a German company so it was not all for nought, though I'm the low man on the totem pole thanks to my liberal arts frivolity.

But I have the money to spend on scholarly publications so I like to think I contribute in that way.... well, er, the popular works anyway.  I can't afford the really serious stuff since the scholarly publishing market is geared towards libraries who will pay $200 for a book.  Or $1525.00, as I saw this week that a hardcover copy of Theodor Mommsen's History of Rome will set you back. 

We definitely need more consumers! I do wish more people were like you and Costin who still have the desire to immerse yourself and learn (it woud also mean more royalties for me )  Unfortunately a good many of my colleagues somehow make history boring and turn people off to the discipline.  I think its admirable that you keep up w/ current historiography even though it's not your job. That's the type of thing and dedication generally impresses me more than a diploma hanging on the wall. Much of the discipline is willing to expose and evaluate (fairly) material and perspectives that differ from what you are accustomed to.  Or, at least that is one of my findings from my dissertation. Yeah, that can definitely get pricey...especially without inter-library-loan access.  I only have a shelf like Costin wants because I can borrow this stuff for literally years.  But mine will be more apt to have Hans than Theodor...


When I turn my dissertation into a book, I'll send one to help get that bookshelf filled Costin bc/ I'm not sure how available/expensive it will be in Romania and because you mentioned Erwin Rommel like 100 pages ago


On Loghain, I agree with several of the posters here that he is dead as a doornail.  Even if you import a save where he is spared, he is referred to as a traitor.  And if he's not, I'd rather him not make some brief cameo or be cursory mentioned which will ruin my memories of what really was a very intriguing antagonist.  I'd much prefer they come up with a new antagonist, one that actually is well thought out.  Though Bioware's recent offerings don't give me much faith.

I did hear that some studio was redoing the Baldur's Gate games.  I actually never played these (I know sacrilege...my RPG years spanned from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s and I didn't pick it up again until the mid 2000s) so hopefully I can look forward to some more memorable antagonists soon.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 25 mars 2012 - 04:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Missed an epic discussion! Yea I realize that Joy Division and it is disheartening.
History in the Arab World is ten times worse though, too bombastic, poetic and hyperbolic and focused more on regurgitating events rather than understanding them and the context. Very little critical thinking involved. Something I might be interesting in doing is being part of a local revision of our history. But I'd be stepping on a ton of people's toes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2012 - 05:11 .

[Addai]

tklivory wrote...

The problem with studying history is that it is recorded by humans, and thus unreliable from the get-go. All the facts are not recorded, everything is interpreted one way or another, and in the end you are working off of what is essentially a translation of a translation of a translation, with morals, ethics, religion and nationalism serving as the filters those translations are forced through.

Remember that great Rebellion of 1776?  Yeah, neither does anyone else...

Hey you lurker.    Even the more scientific side of historical research, like archaeology, can fall under biases and whatever subjects are popular and hence get the funding, and then bias again in the interpretation.  It's sometimes frightening, sometimes awe-inspiring, to realize how little we actually know.  People tend to think because we're so modern that we've got it about all wrapped up by now and all that's left is to fill in the corners.  But then something could come along that turns it all on its head.  That's true in science as well as history.  Even the hard sciences have to go through human filters.

Of course that's not all bad.  One of the things I like is that the more scientific history like DNA analysis will sometimes prove that the oral history and folklore was more accurate than the "scholarly" history.