12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree with Mr. Addai, I preferred Mount and Blade, twas more fun than the demo of Shogun I played.

[BomimoDK]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And finally Lucretia ( Lucy Lawless ) - Batiatus's wife.

One does not simply make Xena a ginger and give her a new name!

Modifié par BomimoDK, 11 avril 2012 - 03:01 .

[Addai]

Do any of you hang out at any history forums you could recommend?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Do any of you hang out at any history forums you could recommend?

I tried once to hang out in what seemed to be a history forum. Turned out to be a white supremacist forum. Was quite the experience.

No I don't know any myself. Not sure I'd like to be in one either.

[Lt. Bane]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Do any of you hang out at any history forums you could recommend?

I tried once to hang out in what seemed to be a history forum. Turned out to be a white supremacist forum. Was quite the experience.

No I don't know any myself. Not sure I'd like to be in one either.

Lol wow. Please don't say it was stormfront.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lt. Bane wrote...
Lol wow. Please don't say it was stormfront.

Haha no, not that one. But I did go there after my experieince with the other forum (learned aobut it from there) and I established myself as the resident Semitic antagonist for a few months. Twas hilarious. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 avril 2012 - 09:12 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I tried once to hang out in what seemed to be a history forum. Turned out to be a white supremacist forum. Was quite the experience.

No I don't know any myself. Not sure I'd like to be in one either.

Heh, that's an even bigger danger if you do German and Norse history.  I wish it weren't so, but the field attracts wackos.  Lately I navigate this on tumblr as I innocently start to follow what I think is a history blog and they start posting some ethnicist s***.  And then there are the sentimentalists.  Strangely enough some of the best history discussion I've come across has been from re-enactors and also at the Mount and Blade forum.  I used to have an attitude about SCA types but some of these guys are very rigorous in their accuracy.

It's a shame because it's not only fun to discuss stuff, I think it's an important part of learning because you need to be able to test theories and hear about new research.  Outside academia you can really only do that on the internet.  Oh well.

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

Do any of you hang out at any history forums you could recommend?

I used to hang around the Paradox Interactive forum.  Swedish company which has released some pretty technical political-military simulators.  The Off-topic forum has a lot of folks who are pretty knowledgable in military history, just be aware the further back in time you go and further toward social history, the knowledge level declines.  I once tried to argue that the Dark Ages weren't Dark and let's just say they haven't read Regine Pernoud.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 13 avril 2012 - 03:06 .

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...
I used to hang around the Paradox Interactive forum.  Swedish company which has released some pretty technical political-military simulators.  The Off-topic forum has a lot of folks who are pretty knowledgable in military history, just be aware the further back in time you go and further toward social history, the knowledge level declines.  I once tried to argue that the Dark Ages weren't Dark and let's just say they haven't read Regine Pernoud.

Oh god, that one.  Nothing makes a medievalist twitch more than that term.  I can't believe people still repeat these 19th century canards.  And now there's a whole new crop of it thanks to those "New Atheists" like Richard Dawkins, turning their bigoted little political cranks and mangling history in them.  All in the name of "free thinking" and intellectual inquiry.  I love these little absurdities in life.

I'll check out that forum.  I was lurking at Roman Army Talk forum this week.  It was interesting though seems quiet.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 avril 2012 - 05:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Heh, that's an even bigger danger if you do German and Norse history.  I wish it weren't so, but the field attracts wackos.

Oh yea I remember. I found it amusing to watch people argue with regards to Rome and whether it was an Aryan civilization, with many there blaming it for corrupting Europe with external (primarily Semitic) influence. Not only in terms of religion, but just the idea of Empire was something a lot of them loathed. Others on the otherhand just saw glory and wanted to add another name to their "great white nations" list. 

It's interesting how people percieve things.

And yes the term "dark ages" is something I find almost as annoying as "golden age" (when it's used irresponsibly). I've been raised to believe in a past "Islamic Golden Age" when Europe was shackled by its "Dark Age" and I came to realize it's all unnuanced BS.

I have said and will continue to say that the Islamicate civilization(s) was superior to the European one in most of the medieval era in a lot of fields, just like the reverse is clearly the case now. But "dark age" is an exagerration , first coined by thinkers with political agendas. The same thinkers who saw the Roman Republic as a golden age that Caesar and Augustus wrongly destroyed, which is BS.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 avril 2012 - 06:09 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Oh yea I remember. I found it amusing to watch people argue with regards to Rome and whether it was an Aryan civilization, with many there blaming it for corrupting Europe with external (primarily Semitic) influence. Not only in terms of religion, but just the idea of Empire was something a lot of them loathed. Others on the otherhand just saw glory and wanted to add another name to their "great white nations" list. 

Ugh, what a waste of time.  It's embarrassing to have such numbskulls share the same interests.  I keep them away from my blog by occasionally posting about Slavs, Mongols, etc.- easy to do since I do actually admire these cultures.  Also annoying are the Romanist fanboys who connect Rome's manifest destiny to the US.  I read a novel by an Iraq war vet recently who I think was coming from this angle.  It was about Germanicus' campaign to recover the eagles lost at Teutoburger Wald.  I was hoping to be able to like the book, but had to add it to my list of why historical fiction is usually disappointing.

Have a love-hate relationship with Roman history myself.  I find it pedestrian and boring, but you need some literacy in it to understand a lot of other historical connections, and can't knock their chroniclers' contributions.

edit- Oh, just noticed that the new game the spousal unit has been talking about is from Paradox Interactive, Crusader Kings II.  I might have to try it.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 avril 2012 - 06:03 .

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I have said and will continue to say that the Islamicate civilization(s) was superior to the European one in most of the medieval era in a lot of fields, just like the reverse is clearly the case now. But "dark age" is an exagerration , first coined by thinkers with political agendas. The same thinkers who saw the Roman Republic as a golden age that Caesar and Augustus wrongly destroyed, which is BS.  

Everyone knows it was Christainity and Commodus that led Rome to ruin

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea those Jews destroyed the Roman Empire in a carefully planned plot. Oh I miss those discussions.

Eh, a number said that Septimius Severus weakened the empire (which is true in a lot of ways), because he was Semitic (punic) lol
Of course others quickly disagreed because Hannibal and the Carthaginians couldn't possibly be Semitic, they had to be of Greek stock...somehow.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2012 - 03:14 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Eh, a number said that Septimius Severus weakened the empire (which is true in a lot of ways), because he was Semitic (punic) lol

Eh....what?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Eh, a number said that Septimius Severus weakened the empire (which is true in a lot of ways), because he was Semitic (punic) lol

Eh....what?

Yea, had fun reading through that discussion.

[Costin_Razvan]

Ok....I think I am going back to bed now...and here I thought people couldn't spin more retarded bull**** in regards to history then the widespread views about Hitler and the Holocaust.

People are so obssessed over the ideas of the jews having so much power over the course of history...they didn't. Sure there were many learned people among jews which were also high class citizens but really.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

To be fair, they were anti-Semitic in a broad way. They hated all Semitic peoples and civilizations, Arabs included.

Of course some claimed that Phoenicians were not Semitic, but Greek and that Assyrians were Indo-European and not Semitic...etc. Because the nations they like, they usually want to classify as "white."

[Costin_Razvan]

The Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian people did so much for the world that to dismiss that is well....retarded. I personally don't think humanity could have advanced as far as it has right now without them, just like I feel about the Greeks and Romans.

I guess one could argue the world might be in a better place without the cultural influences they left behind, but I doubt it personally.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 avril 2012 - 05:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well a lot of them said that Akkadians, Assyrians and Babylonians are all Aryans anyways, when all evidence points to the contrary. That was when I started researching Y-DNA, which disproved them entirely.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2012 - 02:57 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'm currently still reading through Empires at War (3 volumes) that provides a  short summary of the militaries of major polities from the Akkadians all the way up to the Ottomans. It also provides a list of suggested readings after every chapter if one is interested in looking at it in depth.

I find it interesting and as was said earlier in this thread, military history is sadly very under-studied. It is interesting to see how seemingly very small innovations could drastically change the face of warfare and policy making.

Interesting. I'm definitely going to add that to my list of books to get. 
 

Addai67 wrote...

So I'd have to ask you what subject matter or region or time period you'd like to learn more about.

 
All of them, honestly. I like to learn as much as I can about everything.

Addai67 wrote...

I guess since medieval is my focus I'll say that I think Norman Cantor's Civilization of the Middle Ages is a good foundational survey. The only thing he gets horribly wrong is to dismiss Byzantine history as irrelevant. The husband-wife team of Joseph and Frances Gies also write good popular works on medieval history. I liked their Life in a Medieval Village and Life in a Medieval City. I am also a fan of Barbara Hanawalt for medieval social history, like her The Ties That Bound which looks at latest research on English peasant life. If you want a fun little read that will explode most of the common myths about medieval history, try Regine Pernoud's Those Terrible Middle Ages. She's a French archivist, and writes with a dry wit that I love. That book is so small it's more like a pamphlet, but should be required reading instead of the stuff schools usually teach from.

My recent purchases that I am most excited about are Hans Delbrück's survey of military history. I think there are 5 volumes total though I only got Warfare in Antiquity, The Barbarian Invasions and Medieval Warfare.

I'll have to check out these as well. With any luck some of them aren't too expensive to buy from Amazon, since there aren't any book stores where I live right now.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To be fair, they were anti-Semitic in a broad way. They hated all Semitic peoples and civilizations, Arabs included.

Of course some claimed that Phoenicians were not Semitic, but Greek and that Assyrians were Indo-European and not Semitic...etc. Because the nations they like, they usually want to classify as "white."

The Semites can keep the Assyrians...nothing but a bunch of brutes

[KnightofPhoenix]

Meh, Assyrians were awesome in a lot of fronts (mostly related to military). But I've always been the type to prefer the peoples of Amorite / Western Semitic stock as opposed to Eastern.

[Dave of Canada]

Warning: TL;DR, off-topic post.

Sorry. Don't really know where to post this, however I know most political discussions ultimately come here and I'm curious if I'm stretching things too far. Basically, I'm working as writer for a Skyrim mod (which I mentioned before! ) and I don't know if what I'm doing "makes sense".

I've asked the other people on the project but they usually don't answer with anything other than "It's fine" and give no input on possiblities and such, thus I come here with some bit of ingame history for the mod and looking for input. There's two versions of history, fiction (which you'll mostly hear from everybody, read from tomes and such) and reality (which you'll need to piece together yourself from various documents, sayings and from other sources).

I'll try to keep this short. (P.S, I'll fail)

Fiction:
It's believed that King Malurion of Hoirentha sent out his cruel sorcerer-knights to invade all the world, eventually arriving to "The Isles" (Generic name until we have our fake language made) where they oppressed every local and hunted them down and slaughtered them like pigs until one legendary figure simply known as Cynfael rose up.

Cynfael roared in defiance as she witnessed her dead family before her, her cry awakening the dead "from the ashes of innocents" to serve her and avenge everyone. As she swept through "The Isles", locals joined her and eventually a sect of Malurion's sorcerer-knights--the Necri (the tribals misheard "Necromancer" when they first arrived, some modern day commonfolk still call them "Necrimancers" despite the Necromancers taking offense)--eventually turned on him, seeing Cynfael as their leader and learning weaker versions of her abilities.

Constant losses forced Malurion to abandon his conquest of "The Isles" and eventually led him to order the destruction of all sorcerers in vengeance, which prompted Cynfael to deem her duty as done and she disappeared in an ancient city ruin nestled in the mountains with her undead army. Some believe she's still there awaiting the day Hoirentha returns to reclaim "The Isles", where she'll lead her army to the people's defense again.

The commonfolk's intepretation of the tale creates:

• Hatred for all sorcerers other than Necromancers.
• Necromancers are revered as holy, using Cynfael's "gift" to "honor" the dead.
• Hoirentha is hated and viewed as oppressors, despite Malurion's descendents being long dead and it's role in the modern-day world being insignificant.
• Worship of Cynfael is core to the religious beliefs of everyone on "The Isles".

Reality was much more involved, where Malurion was monarch of a kingdom slowly being overrun by sorcerers (as sorcery is a genetic trait) and fearing for the potential consequences of leaving the sorcerers unchecked. Creating the Guild of Magic, he sought to control the sorcerers before they posed a threat to his position.

An elected representative of all sorcerers, Guildmaster Tamara, was soon placed on Malurion's council which he'd be able to use to keep close observation on "his" sorcerers. Tamara eventually proved herself a valuable asset and Malurion trusted her with more influence, ironically slowly handing his kingdom over to the very sorcerers he feared would take control from him.

Eventually, sorcerers outnumbered the "unblessed" in the Council chambers and were the only voice being heard in Malurion's ear. Sorcerer-Knights became the elite, causing many former knights to lose their position and influence. The commonfolk feared their king was a thrall to magic, causing civil unrest and anti-sorcerer riots throughout Hoirentha.

Despite the unrest, Malurion felt himself untouchable guarded by all the sorcerers and decided it was time to invade neighboring kingdoms, as he felt his sorcerers were more than enough to handle everything they could potentially throw at them. Tamara pleaded to Malurion to reconsider, he was overestimating the mage's abilities, though he didn't listen and many disastrous campaigns followed shortly afterward.

As the kingdom's coffers started running dry (despite heavy taxes) due to Malurion's campaigns, civil unrest grew more problematic with only a handful of sorcerers remaining in the capital to defend Malurion should the worst occur. Tamara, seeking to seperate herself and the Guild of Magic from Malurion, found herself and her kind to be associated to the man and all his campaigns.

The Guild of Magic was shunned by everybody, they had leashed themselves to Malurion and he's bringing them down with him. Using Sight Seers (ancient magic, powerful stuff which can only be used once before the sorcerer is exhausted and can never cast again), she sought out somewhere that her and the Guild could potentially flee.

The Sight Seers found "The Isles" off the coast of Horientha, inhabited by roaming tribals and smugglers maintaining a port. It was perfect for her needs, she approached Malurion and convinced him that any gold found at the port would potentially pay for any future campaigns, which Malurion agreed with and quickly ordered what remained of his "loyal" men to assault.

Within two weeks, the port's cannons couldn't hold out against the sorcerers and Horientha found itself with "The Isles", a fief which Tamara hoped she could possibly claim from Malurion. This proved impossible, as he intended to keep it for himself and he started exterminating the local tribals.

Many Sorcerer-Knights--fearing potential uprising in the kingdom--abandoned their posts and fled to the wilderness, willing to risk living in the wilderness than face being burned at the stake or worst. Among them was one of the elite, Captain Legnus, who kept in contact with Tamara who remained by Malurion's side.

Tamara, realising the island will never belong to her people without force, ordered Captain Legnus to gather the tribals and assist them in pushing off Malurion's forces by any means necessary, which wouldn't prove too difficult without the assistance of the Sorcerer-Knights that remained "loyal".

Legnus eventually found a tribal woman scouting, surrounding her with his men and caging her to be brought with them. Using her to learn their culture, he eventually hatched the plan to use her as an icon to unite the tribes. The deserter Sorcerer-Knights brought the (now enchanted under their will) woman back to her village, presenting her in shined Sorcerer-Knight armor and claiming she's here to stop the invaders killing their people.

The knights, hiding their incantations, rose the dead and claimed it to be the woman's doing and many of the tribals viewed her as their saviour, just as Legnus had planned. They traveled throughout "The Isles", gathering tribes and killing those who refused to join them and raising their dead corpses until they had a considerable army.

Malurion read scout reports of the tribal armies and dismissed them, thinking the Sorcerers were capable enough of defending "The Isles" from simple tribesman. Tamara smirked as she knew Legnus had accomplished what she had asked, though she tried to find some way for her--and all those who remained in the city--to escape to "The Isles".

Tamara ordered Legnus to not attack until most mages have evacuated Horientha, though he was worried the tribes were barely capable of co-operating with themselves and that they'd die of exhaustion from keeping the undead active for so long. Rather than wait, Legnus attacked the same night.

"The Isle" was freed from Malurion's grasp within two days, the tribals swarmed and burned down everything which stood before them, including other Sorcerers who hadn't switched sides yet. Legnus watched the carnage from afar, prefering keeping his concentration on maintaining the undead as long as possible.

The tribal woman-turned-hero was worshipped as a god by the tribes, causing some tribes to unite over the corpses of their enemies. Legnus knew this would cause conflict should the enchantment fail, thus he and his men made the woman "disappear" into the ruins of a tribal holy ruin and claimed no tribal can enter the ruin.

Tamara, upon hearing the news of the failed conquest of "The Isles", returned to her room and tried to prepare her things to flee from the kingdom but she was quickly captured by Malurion's loyalist "unblessed', blaming her for the failed conquest and sending her to the stake along with every other sorcerer he was capable of grasping.

A witch hunt was authorised and sorcerers throughout Horientha were slaughtered en masse, removing the public's hatred from Malurion--at least for a little while, as his claims of being a thrall to the mages didn't cut it for most of those hurt the most by the heavy taxes and the failed campaigns. Soon he burned at the stake with many of his former mage councilors.

Captain Legnus and his Sorcerer-Knights eventually formed the foundation for what eventually would become modern-day "The Isles", dividing the tribes in four (to keep those with hostilities to each other apart and so each of them can keep an eye on all of them) and each having their own segments of the isles to themselves. Many modern-day "The Isles" noble house mannerisms and attitudes could be traced back to the Sorcerer-Knight which "owned" the tribe.

Originally, sorcery was passed down to the tribals but their attitude towards it after Malurion's destruction of many tribes caused the Sorcerer-Knights to only teach Necromancy, due to the approving attitude towards it. Due to sorcerers being in rather short stock on "The Isles", the trait for sorcery isn't really common-place however and those who eventually become Necromancers are considered blessed (by Cynfael for a modern interpretation).

Horientha's witch hunt ultimately left it defenseless and it was basically destroyed by other armies bitter after Malurion's campaigns, the country being divided and weak ever since. Modern-day Horientha is fractured into  segments and is basically viewed as nothing but extra farmland for whatever monarch can control it.

Note: Names aren't final.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 avril 2012 - 12:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I do not know Skyrim lore, but that sounds very interesting. I see a bit of TW2 in there in fact: mages uplifting a leader to be a figurehead is similar to Saskia.

I am curious, do "the Isles" natives attribute any philosophical and / or religious importance to necromancy? Like do they have a philosophy of defying nature and death? Or perhaps they see themselves as bringing balance between life and death. Perhaps they believe that Cynfael, in defying and mastering death, became a god?
Or do they only use necromancy out of pure practicality and pragmatism?

Also, do some sorcerers seek to become undead themselves (like liches) or are they not that fascinated by the concept?

It might be interesting to have necromaniacs amongst these peoples who are fascinated by undeath and believe it to be a state of perfection that brings them ever closer to their god.

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not know Skyrim lore, but that sounds very interesting.

Completely unrelated to Skyrim's lore, I find Skyrim's lore too... set, so we're going with an entirely different universe for the mod which I'm trying to craft. 

I see a bit of TW2 in there in fact: mages uplifting a leader to be a figurehead is similar to Saskia.

Basically, yeah. When we started, I didn't want mages to everywhere so I tried to find some way which would make mages a bit more interesting and how they were ultimately destroyed (with Necromancers remaining as the primairy religion to the commonfolk). TW2 certainly influenced me a lot there.

I am curious, do "the Isles" natives attribute any philosophical and / or religious importance to necromancy?


Like do they have a philosophy of defying nature and death? Or perhaps they see themselves as bringing balance between life and death. Perhaps they believe that Cynfael, in defying and mastering death, became a god? 
Or do they only use necromancy out of pure practicality and pragmatism? 

The tribals of old viewed the undead as their loved ones coming back to life and fight for them, serve Cynfael's conquest against the invaders and defend everything which they held dear. They view it as transcending death, where Cynfael reached into the afterlife and brought them back to serve her.

It's become tied into their culture where most ceremonies for funerals of important lords and the like have Necromancers come along and perform a rite which resurrects the dead, each of them leaving for the "holy city to be with Cynfael" shortly afterwards to explain why they don't live among the common people.

When commonfolk dies, the prayer for the deceased is often times "May Cynfael raise you" and other similar terms as Necromancers claim they cannot raise all commoners for various reasons, namely that the holy city would become full, though in actuality is simply to defend them from having to raise daily (magic exhausts the user).

The original Sorcerer-Knights used it purely for pragmatism.

Also, do some sorcerers seek to become undead themselves (like liches) or are they not that fascinated by the concept?

Depends who you ask.

Sorcerer-Knights from ages old had no interest, they know fully well that Necromancy simply raises the dead as animated objects, doesn't actually bring the "will" of the person back. They could prompt the men and women raised by magic to speak, to do simple commands the like but they were no less mindless.

Necromancers of the modern day are interested, though the religion dictates no one except for the High Necromancer can do raisings of their own kind and nobody has seen raised Necromancers, thus it's simply assumed they're sent off to the holy city by the High Necromancer.

It might be interesting to have necromaniacs amongst these peoples who are fascinated by undeath and believe it to be a state of perfection that brings them ever closer to their god.

You'd like one of the minor plots which I've made.