12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea...not getting back into this.

[HallaGoddess]

Hmm...I pity Loghain more than hate or like.

Although I did absolutely despise him the first time I played.

[Fiacre]

Han Shot First wrote...

The nation gains absolutely nothing by you recruiting Loghain. Besides the fact that he had committed treason and regicide, he was also solely responsible for a civil war at a time when the nation could least afford it. Alistair also walks off if you recuit Loghain, so you don't even gain an extra Warden. That would be the only compelling argument for a Cousland recruiting him. Either way you go into the final battle with exactly three people who are capable of killing the archdemon.

With that in mind, sparing Loghain makes absolutely no sense as a Cousland. That is unless you are roleplaying a character that doesn't much care about the murder of his parents. But that seems a bit far-fetched to me, especially with how the Cousland family was portrayed as being fairly tight early in the game.

And you of course know every single motivation other people's PCs can have to spare him, yes ? :|

My canon is a Cousland and my canon spared him. And my canon adored his family, worshipped his father, was completely devastated and nearly suicidal after the massacre and utterly devoted to his family.

As Gaider confirms, Loghain did not know of the Cousland massacre before it happened. Yes, he did ally with Howe, but Howe was too powerful at that point to alienate and my Cousland, who hero worshipped Loghain, was convinced that the alliance had been purely politics and that Loghain had nothing to do with his family's murder. He was also convinced that Ostagar was a perfectly justifiable tactical retreat (and no, let's not start a debate about that...), and saw no reason to hold a grudge over Loghain trying to kill him, since at that point  he was considered an enemy. Since he was suspicious of the Orlesians himself, he didn't hold that against Loghain either. As such he didn't want to kill Loghain -- and after getting engaged to Anora, even if all of the above hadn't been true, he *couldn't* have killed him because Loghain was now family (or soon to be family) and he wouldn't turn against family and he wouldn't be disloyal to his fiancé (and killing her father would have been being disloyal in his eyes).

So yes, he did care about his family more than anything else, and yes, he did spare Loghain (and even became friends with him and started to see him as a father figure -- he certainly wasn't ready not to have one any more when Bryce died) and it made perfect sense for his character, while killing Loghain would have been horribly OoC. Somehow, that doesn't fit with your statement that it makes no sense for a Cousland to spare him...

Modifié par Fiacre, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:17 .

[Jedimaster88]

Fiacre wrote...



And you of course know every single motivation other people's PCs can have to spare him, yes ? :|

My canon is a Cousland and my canon spared him. And my canon adored his family, worshipped his father, was completely devastated and nearly suicidal after the massacre and utterly devoted to his family.

As Gaider confirms, Loghain did not know of the Cousland massacre before it happened. Yes, he did ally with Howe, but Howe was too powerful at that point to alienate and my Cousland, who hero worshipped Loghain, was convinced that the alliance had been purely politics and that Loghain had nothing to do with his family's murder. He was also convinced that Ostagar was a perfectly justifiable tactical retreat (and no, let's not start a debate about that...), and saw no reason to hold a grudge over Loghain trying to kill him, since at that point  he was considered an enemy. Since he was suspicious of the Orlesians himself, he didn't hold that against Loghain either. As such he didn't want to kill Loghain -- and after getting engaged to Anora, even if all of the above hadn't been true, he *couldn't* have killed him because Loghain was now family (or soon to be family) and he wouldn't turn against family and he wouldn't be disloyal to his fiancé (and killing her father would have been being disloyal in his eyes).

So yes, he did care about his family more than anything else, and yes, he did spare Loghain (and even became friends with him and started to see him as a father figure -- he certainly wasn't ready not to have one any more when Bryce died) and it made perfect sense for his character, while killing Loghain would have been horribly OoC. Somehow, that doesn't fit with your statement that it makes no sense for a Cousland to spare him...

Out of curiosity, how does your warden come to the conclusion that the ostagar retreat was tactical?

I´ve played the game many times and I dont remember ever finding anything from within that would support that. Sure Loghain says so to the nobles, but yeah he also says many other things that arent true. If not for the official information given by Gaider, I would still believe his retreat was part of a power grab that would in his mind somehow benefit Ferelden.

[Fiacre]

He hero worships Loghain too much to think he'd pull of a power grab like that and he was at the meeting where Loghain told Cailan to stay away from the front lines. Shea thought that doing so if Loghain wanted Cailan dead makes no sense. And from the bits he could see from the bridge/Tower, there were also loads of Darkspawn. So since Loghain himself says it was tactical, Shea's just going to believe him. ...I should probably say that he has issues and the massacre *really* didn't help, so Loghain was a bit lucky there, being one of his heroes. Even if Shea had thought it was a power grab, he might have just convinced himself it really was for the good of Ferelden, especially since Cailan wanted help from the Orlesians.

Fortunately for everyone, the boy mellowed out over time and has Anora to tell him if he's being a paranoid idiot who stopped thinking properly, so they'd probably still make a good team.

[TEWR]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Out of curiosity, how does your warden come to the conclusion that the ostagar retreat was tactical?

See here

Also take into account how Cailan led an idiot charge which further damned the battle's chances of success.

Han Shot First wrote...

The nation gains absolutely nothing by you recruiting Loghain

That is so untrue.

The nation's morale stays high when the symbol of their independence is still alive.

And besides, if you really want to punish him, make him live for 30 years with the knowledge of what he's done.

Not that I see him living as being a punishment, but it can be viewed as poetic justice.

Han Shot First wrote...

Besides the fact that he had committed treason and regicide,

Review the link I just linked to up above and you'll see that his call to retreat was the right one. And David Gaider has said that Loghain once promised Maric that one man would never be more important then the whole kingdom.

He never wanted Cailan dead -- indeed, the toolset's notes on when you confront him about Cailan's death say as much in regards to how he says it -- and we know that if the battle was winnable he would've charged in to save Cailan.

Cailan was a foolish king. One that ruined battle strategies proposed by generals and one that relied on legends to win the day over actual skill and strategy.

Han Shot First wrote...

With that in mind, sparing Loghain makes absolutely no sense as a Cousland.

No, sparing Arl Howe would make no sense as a Cousland. Loghain had no knowledge whatsoever of what Howe did to the Couslands, nor did he ally with Howe because he supported him and his actions. He only allied with Howe because he felt reliant on his political mind -- which I laugh at, as Howe is an idiot at politics -- and was eventually manipulated too much by Howe.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If I had the option, my Cousland would not have killed Howe in his home.

[Fiacre]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Out of curiosity, how does your warden come to the conclusion that the ostagar retreat was tactical?

See here

Also take into account how Cailan led an idiot charge which further damned the battle's chances of success.

While KoP's analysis is quite awesome, would a PC have the knowledge to make the same one? We obviously can, but the Warden doesn't get the benfit of cutscenes, which is why even my canon who probably read more than one book about strategy has mainly other reasons for believeing that.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No, sparing Arl Howe would make no sense as a Cousland. Loghain had no knowledge whatsoever of what Howe did to the Couslands, nor did he ally with Howe because he supported him and his actions. He only allied with Howe because he felt reliant on his political mind -- which I laugh at, as Howe is an idiot at politics -- and was eventually manipulated too much by Howe.

You know, I think  it depends on how you define sparing. I could very well see a Cousland leaving Howe alive in the dungeon to go the "proper" way of having him sentenced to death and hanged/otherwise executed. Shea actually feels a bit guilty for not doing that. Especially when Nate's around.

Also, Howe had grabbed a teyrnir, had an intact army and may have also grabbed Denerim by then (can't quite remember the timeline on that), so yes, Loghain allied with him because he could use an ally like that. And then underestimated Howe's ability to manipulate him.

[TEWR]

Fiacre wrote...

While KoP's analysis is quite awesome, would a PC have the knowledge to make the same one? We obviously can, but the Warden doesn't get the benfit of cutscenes, which is why even my canon who probably read more than one book about strategy has mainly other reasons for believeing that

There are a few indications that **** will not go well.

My Dwarf Noble facepalmed when Teyrn Loghain would rather explore the lower dungeons rather then seal them up. Then when he found out Loghain became Teyrn 30 years ago, he did another facepalm because Loghain didn't bother to study a critical fortress in Ferelden in all that time.

Outside of the game, I blame Bioware for that. As Xanthos Aeducan, I'm facepalming like crazy.

Then you can see how far the horde goes back and realize that your army.... probably won't be able to defeat all of them, more so after witnissing how Cailan would charge out of a defendable position rather then stay in their position and form a protective phalanx.

Then the wasting of the Mabari hounds as pointless fodder and launching only one volley of arrows against the Darkspawn. The entire Ostagar cinematic is stuff that I believe my Warden saw happen from atop the bridge.

Finding out there are only a handful of Mages at Ostagar also makes one question the success of the battle, upon seeing the horde's presence.

And then when the Darkspawn invaded the Tower just made Xanthos Aeducan go "Called it!" and facepalm again.

So I can definitely see any Warden agreeing that Loghain's retreat was the right call, though I don't think there's ever any option for the Warden to express such a viewpoint -- that Loghain's call, while resulting in the death of Cailan and Duncan, was the right one to make.

Fiacre wrote...

Also, Howe had grabbed a teyrnir, had an intact army and may have also grabbed Denerim by then (can't quite remember the timeline on that), so yes, Loghain allied with him because he could use an ally like that. And then underestimated Howe's ability to manipulate him.

Oh I know Loghain allied with him for those reasons. I just don't personally view Howe as very political. He's treacherous and deceitful and manipulative, but those alone don't make one savvy on politics.

Instead of maybe trying to get the Elves to calm down and recruiting them in the army -- like Loghain did with the Night Elves in The Stolen Throne -- he purges them, citing it as "necessary to do to rabid animals" or some such nonsense.

I just don't see him as politically savvy. Though I wonder if KoP does.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If I had the option, my Cousland would not have killed Howe in his home.

Would your Cousland have still killed him elsewhere, or spared him? And what are your views on Howe's supposed "political mind"?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[Fiacre]

...If you put it like that, how could even Alistair ever think that the battle was winnable? It makes me wonder if it was really Cailan being an idiot or Bioware doing what looks cooler. Or what they thought would look cooler, because that already had me shaking my head the first time I saw it and I'm by no means a tactical genius and haven't even tried to read Sun Tzu (yet).

It's almost funny that the Cunning dialogue when fighting through the Tower doesn't mention that and is just asking if the Darkspawn knew the plan.

And no, you can never suggest that about Loghain -- you can suggest allying with him when Eamon rings up the Landsmeet, but otherwise I've only seen options to condemn Loghain :c It makes me sad. Shea would have drove Alistair mad by singing Loghain's praises and condemning Duncan had the game let me (and Shea not decided to just ignore Alistair).

And I just wrote that about Howe to add to your comment And as one of the reasons why my character (and perhaps others') don't hold that alliance against Loghain.

Though, since no one really believed it was a Blight at that point, maybe Howe thought it wasn't that important?

[TEWR]

Fiacre wrote...

...If you put it like that, how could even Alistair ever think that the battle was winnable? It makes me wonder if it was really Cailan being an idiot or Bioware doing what looks cooler. Or what they thought would look cooler, because that already had me shaking my head the first time I saw it and I'm by no means a tactical genius and haven't even tried to read Sun Tzu (yet).

Probably what looks cooler. Admittedly, it is kinda awesome. But... it would've probably been more badass had the battle been more realistic and intelligent.

Though it does go to Cailan's expecting the Wardens to defeat the Darkspawn so easily.

It's almost funny that the Cunning dialogue when fighting through the Tower doesn't mention that and is just asking if the Darkspawn knew the plan.

One of these days I'll roll a character that's high on cunning and has access to some of those early responses. Do you happen to know what they are, up to and including the Battle of Ostagar? Like what the Warden says and what he gets as a response, in gist form?

And no, you can never suggest that about Loghain -- you can suggest allying with him when Eamon rings up the Landsmeet, but otherwise I've only seen options to condemn Loghain :c It makes me sad. Shea would have drove Alistair mad by singing Loghain's praises and condemning Duncan had the game let me (and Shea not decided to just ignore Alistair).

Yea, I remember that allying comment with Loghain you can make. Sad that you can't support his decision anywhere in-game.

I wouldn't have condemned Duncan myself, though I'm sure opinions of him would've been improved had he said he would divulge certain Warden secrets to Loghain and Cailan, if it meant the Blight's threat would be taken seriously by the two of them.

I would've condemned the hell out of Cailan though.

Though, since no one really believed it was a Blight at that point, maybe Howe thought it wasn't that important?

Probably, but still... he just killed them for the lulz, which is going to have serious long term ramifications on Ferelden's political spectrum -- never mind the Veil problem it would and did create.

[Fiacre]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Probably what looks cooler. Admittedly, it is kinda awesome. But... it would've probably been more badass had the battle been more realistic and intelligent.

Though it does go to Cailan's expecting the Wardens to defeat the Darkspawn so easily.

Indeed. Especially since the game keeps telling you to be tactical. And really, I don't think I've ever won a single game of chess in my life and even I came to the conclusion that cailan was pretty stupid in that cutscene. Well, especially in thst cutscene, he's never been the sharpest knife in the drawer.

One of these days I'll roll a character that's high on cunning and has access to some of those early responses. Do you happen to know what they are, up to and including the Battle of Ostagar? Like what the Warden says and what he gets as a response, in gist form?

When you first meet Flemeth:

"Believed or not, some things must be accpeted."

With heranswering: "Ha! There lies the answer I hoped to get. An open mind, yet made of mush. Am I simply complimenting you? Wait and see?

"So much about you is uncertain... and yet I believe. Do I? Why, yes, it seems I do!"

When you later talk with her after the battle, you can say "What about th treaties Flemeth gave us?" and she says "Smart lad" or something similar, instead of the usual "Surely there are other allies we can call on."

When talking to th tranquil, you can answer that mages are feared because of the Tevinter Imperium.

In the Tower, when alistair talks about the Darkspawn being there, you can say "Why attack at all? Unless they knew the plan?" (might not be the exact quote, but something like that) and Alistair answers that that's a scary thought and the Darkspawn can't bethat smart, hopefully.

And if you're an HN, you get an additional answer when Alduous asks you when the Cousland's became teyrns where you can say that it was when Ferelden was suffering from werewolves.

I think you get an extra option with Sten where you say that the Qunari are those warmongers, but stupid as I am I never tried that one... But that's past Ostagar, anyway.


There might be more that I've missed, but if you play a rogue and use High Regard of House Dace and the Cinch of Manouvering the thirty cunnng are relatively easy to get. And there are some Cunning dialogues that don't need Cunning to be that high -- I know you can get the one when Alistair chews you out after Redcliffe with 23 Cunning and the one with Weylon with... 21, I think.

Yea, I remember that allying comment with Loghain you can make. Sad that you can't support his decision anywhere in-game.

I wouldn't have condemned Duncan myself, though I'm sure opinions of him would've been improved had he said he would divulge certain Warden secrets to Loghain and Cailan, if it meant the Blight's threat would be taken seriously by the two of them.

I would've condemned the hell out of Cailan though.

The argument against it makes sense, but still, I wish you could say more on the matter, too. Especially since Alsitair is always surpised at the Landsmeet that I choose Loghain and I wish I could tell him what I think about him and Ostagar beforehand.

And I don't condemn Duncan, but Shea did not approve of being recruited and eve less of how it happened. ...He was also easily convinced to leave Cailan to the wolves after finding those letters in RtO :/

Probably, but still... he just killed them for the lulz, which is going to have serious long term ramifications on Ferelden's political spectrum -- never mind the Veil problem it would and did create.

Wait, the elves or the Couslands? I'm not sure the elves would have political ramifications since most Ferelden's don't seem to give a **** about them, but I can't remember anything said about Veil problems in Highever...

Modifié par Fiacre, 14 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[TEWR]

Fiacre wrote...

Wait, the elves or the Couslands? I'm not sure the elves would have political ramifications since most Ferelden's don't seem to give a **** about them, but I can't remember anything said about Veil problems in Highever...

Sorry, meant the Elves.

It would increase the tensions present between Elves and Humans, leading to more hostilities in the city. Violence begets violence and all that.

Fiacre wrote...

There might be more that I've missed, but if you play a rogue and use High Regard of House Dace and the Cinch of Manouvering the thirty cunnng are relatively easy to get.

For some reason the items from GoA and WH don't go over to Origins on the PS3. Is it only a PC thing?

If so then that sucks, because I can't yet play my UE of DAO for the PC.

[Fiacre]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sorry, meant the Elves.

It would increase the tensions present between Elves and Humans, leading to more hostilities in the city. Violence begets violence and all that.

I suppose it could, though that seems like something that would very quickly go badly for the elves, since the hmans would either "win", or the monarch(s) themselves would crush any rebellion. I don't see the elves having much of a chance in that scenario.

For some reason the items from GoA and WH don't go over to Origins on the PS3. Is it only a PC thing?

If so then that sucks, because I can't yet play my UE of DAO for the PC.

I'm on XBox, so it can't be PC thing That's weird. If you have the achievements you have the items and I would assume it works he same with the PS3's trophies... Otherwise, you'd have to really weaken yourself early on toget your Cunning up that high. Even as a rogue, you only get Lethaility on level 8, I think, so it won't be that useful yet :/

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If I had the option, my Cousland would not have killed Howe in his home.

Would your Cousland have still killed him elsewhere, or spared him? And what are your views on Howe's supposed "political mind"?

My Cousland would have put him on trial. He would have already decided the outcome before, but he would have still made a show of Rule of Law. The outcome would probably have been execution.

As for Howe's political mind. Let's first start with a reminder: Bioware knows **** about politics.

With that out of the way, what I can say is that Howe took over and *held* Highever with relative ease, suggesting that he probably already bought the majority of the Ternir's arls and banns prior to his coup. And as Awakening revealed, he had a solid support of the Arling's major lords and those who disagreed with him couldn't do anything. Same could be said of Denerim really. So Howe definitely knows how to play the game to a certain degree. By the time he was killed, he ruled over two major Arlings and one Ternir.

On the otherhand, Howe kidnaps noblemen's children for ransom (the ****? They were not even hostages), steals from the royal treasury to buy stuff for his concubine while the country is getting ****ed, massacres the Couslands and expects everyone else to just accept it (he could not have known what would have happened in Ostagar unless he took a massive risk)....etc etc 

So I'd say Howe is mixed. But metagaming wise, the reality is Bioware wouldn't know how to write someone who is competent at politics even if it wanted to. 

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And David Gaider has said that Loghain once promised Maric that one man would never be more important then the whole kingdom.

But when it's two men, it's okay to ignore the kingdom's welfare in favour of devoting your resources to killing them.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And David Gaider has said that Loghain once promised Maric that one man would never be more important then the whole kingdom.

But when it's two men, it's okay to ignore the kingdom's welfare in favour of devoting your resources to killing them.

First, i only remember once in DAO where he went out of his way to kill the Wardens, and that was by hiring an assassin. Other than that, he dubbed them fugitives so that whoever was loyal to Loghain would bring them in. That's hardly dedicating a large amount of resources to them. If there was more than that one instance in which Loghain went out of his way to track down the Wardens, please refresh my memory.

Second, the Wardens presented a threat to Loghain's "rule". Loghain would have heard quickly that the Wardens were gathering allies, essentially splitting the Kingdom that he is trying so hard to unite. Even if he did dedicate a large amount of resources to dealing with the Wardens, which i don't remember him doing, it would have been very justified.

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And David Gaider has said that Loghain once promised Maric that one man would never be more important then the whole kingdom.

But when it's two men, it's okay to ignore the kingdom's welfare in favour of devoting your resources to killing them.

First, i only remember once in DAO where he went out of his way to kill the Wardens, and that was by hiring an assassin. Other than that, he dubbed them fugitives so that whoever was loyal to Loghain would bring them in. That's hardly dedicating a large amount of resources to them. If there was more than that one instance in which Loghain went out of his way to track down the Wardens, please refresh my memory.

Second, the Wardens presented a threat to Loghain's "rule". Loghain would have heard quickly that the Wardens were gathering allies, essentially splitting the Kingdom that he is trying so hard to unite. Even if he did dedicate a large amount of resources to dealing with the Wardens, which i don't remember him doing, it would have been very justified.

Because sending messengers all over the place to put out bounty notices wouldn't be expensive or time-consuming at all.

Loghain already divided Ferelden himself, by being a tactless twit. And the biggest threat to his rule is the massive horde of darkspawn preparing to sweep across the nation. Dwarves and Elves aren't under his command anyway, and technically nor are mages, so the Wardens aren't "dividing" anything.

The world is about to burn, but Loghain doesn't give a ****, as long as he can be in charge of the cinders.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And David Gaider has said that Loghain once promised Maric that one man would never be more important then the whole kingdom.

But when it's two men, it's okay to ignore the kingdom's welfare in favour of devoting your resources to killing them.

First, i only remember once in DAO where he went out of his way to kill the Wardens, and that was by hiring an assassin. Other than that, he dubbed them fugitives so that whoever was loyal to Loghain would bring them in. That's hardly dedicating a large amount of resources to them. If there was more than that one instance in which Loghain went out of his way to track down the Wardens, please refresh my memory.

Second, the Wardens presented a threat to Loghain's "rule". Loghain would have heard quickly that the Wardens were gathering allies, essentially splitting the Kingdom that he is trying so hard to unite. Even if he did dedicate a large amount of resources to dealing with the Wardens, which i don't remember him doing, it would have been very justified.

Because sending messengers all over the place to put out bounty notices wouldn't be expensive or time-consuming at all.

Loghain already divided Ferelden himself, by being a tactless twit. And the biggest threat to his rule is the massive horde of darkspawn preparing to sweep across the nation. Dwarves and Elves aren't under his command anyway, and technically nor are mages, so the Wardens aren't "dividing" anything.

The world is about to burn, but Loghain doesn't give a ****, as long as he can be in charge of the cinders.

No, i don't imagine having citizens put up bounty notices in the name of Loghain would actually take much time or resources..

That's not the point. Elves and Dwarves going from a neutral party to a directly offensive party is a threat to Loghain's plans. Having the mages, and by extension the Templars, obligated to the Grey Wardens would not bode well for Loghain.

And i will not argue about his decision at Ostagar. If you think he is a tactless twit, and do not understand why he did what he did, i suggest you read through this thread. Going by your very last sentence, you have absolutely no idea who Loghain is. He would die a thousand deaths before he'd see his homeland turned to cinders. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
No, i don't imagine having citizens put up bounty notices in the name of Loghain would actually take much time or resources..

That's not the point. Elves and Dwarves going from a neutral party to a directly offensive party is a threat to Loghain's plans. Having the mages, and by extension the Templars, obligated to the Grey Wardens would not bode well for Loghain.

And i will not argue about his decision at Ostagar. If you think he is a tactless twit, and do not understand why he did what he did, i suggest you read through this thread. Going by your very last sentence, you have absolutely no idea who Loghain is. He would die a thousand deaths before he'd see his homeland turned to cinders. 

Why he did what he did is not the issue. If he thought the Bannorn would stand behind him after the fact, he was a fool. Rather than make any genuine effort at diplomacy to smooth out the feathers he ruffled, he lept straight to threats and violence. That is what I mean by 'tactless', he has no tact.

He was happy to let the darkspawn run unchecked while he indulged in his petty paranoia, he poisoned an arl, sold citizens of his own country into slavery, and then flat-out lied about all of it when confronted. If he loves Ferelden, then it's a very dishonest and abusive relationship, and the country is better off without him.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My Cousland would have put him on trial. He would have already decided the outcome before, but he would have still made a show of Rule of Law. The outcome would probably have been execution.

 
Ah, yes that would be a more just way of punishing Howe, as Cailan had promised the Cousland family would happen.

Of course, death by the hangman's noose seems a bit too kind for Arl Howe.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
As for Howe's political mind. Let's first start with a reminder: Bioware knows **** about politics.

Very true. Or if they do set up an interesting political climate, they don't properly utilize it. The only person Bioware has really made politically capable was Bhelen, but even then I view him as a hack in some regards.

With that out of the way, what I can say is that Howe took over and *held* Highever with relative ease, suggesting that he probably already bought the majority of the Ternir's arls and banns prior to his coup. And as Awakening revealed, he had a solid support of the Arling's major lords and those who disagreed with him couldn't do anything. Same could be said of Denerim really. So Howe definitely knows how to play the game to a certain degree. By the time he was killed, he ruled over two major Arlings and one Ternir.

While he ruled over the two Arlins and the Teyrnir, yes, I'm not so certain he held onto the Highever area and the Denerim area that easily. Escaping from Fort Drakon will allow us to overhear that the citizenry were none too pleased about Howe's presence -- as well as having a large body count there IIRC.

If there was a large body count, then that means Arl Howe didn't have the full support -- if he had any at all -- of Highever's Arls and banns, aside from his own arling siding with him. Which means skirmishes and battles would've happened within the Teyrnir a great deal, so much so that they were organized I would think -- as opposed to being the occasional rabble-rouser.

The Couslands themselves were much loved and respected by the majority of their vassals and whatnot, IIRC.
 
Save for Amaranthine, anyway.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

But when it's two men, it's okay to ignore the kingdom's welfare in favour of devoting your resources to killing them.

He didn't devote the nation's entire resources to killing the Wardens. He predicted where the Wardens might head off to and left people there -- a squad of soldiers in Lothering, a group of bounty hunters at Orzammar's gates, hiring Zevran after Howe mentions it, and Paedan's group working under the employ of Arl Howe.

It's not like he drained the nation's coffers searching for the Wardens and had the army focus on the Wardens. He didn't.

[TEWR]

Fiacre wrote...

I suppose it could, though that seems like something that would very quickly go badly for the elves, since the hmans would either "win", or the monarch(s) themselves would crush any rebellion. I don't see the elves having much of a chance in that scenario.

Oh I agree the Elves wouldn't really have much of a chance -- not unless they started smuggling in weapons again, but even then that'd only be a temporary victory and one that would end fairly quickly once the monarchy stepped in.

But that aside, it's just going to breed more hatred, more violence, thin the Veil a lot more, and potentially destroy/leave unused one of Ferelden's resources: cheap labor -- with the possibility to get raises and whatnot, if the proper system were in place.

Humans are so mired in their racist and bigoted outlook on the Elves that they ignore how useful they could be on repairing Ferelden after the Blight. That's slightly detrimental to Ferelden's ability to regain its footing in the coming years.

[Fiacre]

Hmm, true. Do you think all alienages would rebel or just the Denerim one? Though the veil getting thinner *is* a problem, considering that the Demons could easily spread to the rest of Denerim once they're in "our" world.

And it is a waste of resources, true. One would think the humans would think of that considering that they already liken the elves to animals :| We only know that Anora crushes the food rebellion, yes? Perhaps she later manages to make use of them? And Alistair is more friendly with them anyway, so that might help if he's ruler.

[TEWR]

Fiacre wrote...

Hmm, true. Do you think all alienages would rebel or just the Denerim one?

After Howe's little "for the lulz" purge? It'd be tough to say really. I'm sure it would breed an air of animosity that, if left unchecked and wasn't handled accordingly, would eventually spiral into various riots -- the intensity of which would vary from Alienage to Alienage methinks.

Though the veil getting thinner *is* a problem, considering that the Demons could easily spread to the rest of Denerim once they're in "our" world.

Indeed. They could possess the living or the dead, apostates and Circle Mages in the area, or just do a repeat of the Orphanage.

It's a very dangerous thing for the future of Denerim/Ferelden.

And it is a waste of resources, true. One would think the humans would think of that considering that they already liken the elves to animals :| We only know that Anora crushes the food rebellion, yes? Perhaps she later manages to make use of them? And Alistair is more friendly with them anyway, so that might help if he's ruler.

That's probably why Alistair and Anora are great for Ferelden, short of a Human Noble having a real plan in mind from beginning to end (like KoP's Arcturus, whose blog I've read and agreed with because it mirrors my own thoughts more or less).

Anyway, Alistair and Anora are a great pair, if the former is hardened. Anora even comes to think prior to the epilogue that Alistair will make a decent king -- better then Cailan anyway, which doesn't take much considering a potted plant would be a better king then Cailan -- and Alistair knows how to be fair and just to the people.

Anora would probably be willing to use that to Ferelden's advantage. By giving the Elves better lives, they can improve Ferelden's status in the long run, if done right.