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[tklivory]

Some additional facts in FFXII's favor: a lot of the design, writing, and direction team came from Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story, both of them absolutely awesome earlier games that also had a lot more politics and *thinking* required for the plot than most video games.

Knowing the above, I'm not at all surprised that Basch was supposed to be the original protagonist. Too bad they didn't keep it that way... 

Modifié par tklivory, 08 septembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sounds interesting. Alright I trust you both, I'll check it out eventually.

Thanks for the summary.

[TEWR]

No problem.

On a related note, FFXII had a great soundtrack as well.

tklivory wrote...

Too bad they didn't keep it that way...

Yea. I don't hate Vaan or Penelo -- well, Penelo's design in XII I hated, until the ending cinematic -- but the game probably would've been better with Basch as the main protagonist.

And arguably, he still is. As are Balthier and Ashe -- with Fran, Vaan, and Penelo just providing supporting roles.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No Loghain smut? Ahhh....how I miss the good ol days .

[Shadow Fox]

*pokes head in thread* Is it bad to mention all my characters personally kill Loghain mostly because they're ethier Al's lover or friend and I just hate him for some reason?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No Loghain smut? Ahhh....how I miss the good ol days .

Yea, it kind of died, along with the rest of the DA:O section.

@ Arcane
I believe killing for the sole purpose of pleasing a loved one is petty, but whatever floats your boat.

[Shadow Fox]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No Loghain smut? Ahhh....how I miss the good ol days .

Yea, it kind of died, along with the rest of the DA:O section.

@ Arcane
I believe killing for the sole purpose of pleasing a loved one is petty, but whatever floats your boat.

Not really that it's his smugness,being part of enslavement and torture operations and trying to have me killed  that did it...that and I like making Anora cry I'm a vengeful bastard.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Mike3207]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

*pokes head in thread* Is it bad to mention all my characters personally kill Loghain mostly because they're ethier Al's lover or friend and I just hate him for some reason?

Wrong thread-the Alistair thread is for you.

[tklivory]

Let's be fair, there are Ali-lovers who appreciate Loghain, too. It's just that the choice tends to be carried out by different types of headcanon characters than the ones who frequent the thread here, so those who gravitate towards the more 'romantic' (in the periodic sense as much as the stylistic sense) aspect of headcanonry will tend to side with Alistair, and those who tend to be more pragmatic and cynical (in the Greek sense) tend to side with Loghain.

Unwillingness to expand your horizons on a character because of a player's personal dislike runs both ways, too. And I still twitch every time I read about someone discounting, say, Morrigan as a well-written character because they can't 'bang her'. *twitch*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Agreed with tklivory.
And I can even say that "romantic" people could enjoy a lot in Loghain. He is, in many ways, an archetypical romantic hero, who's just put in a horrible spot at a wrong time. Which is why he is to me such a compelling antagonist.

But I think most Ali-lovers recognize that Loghain is a great antagonist, even if they hate him. I think very few would seriously believe that say TIM or the Arishok or anyone else in recent Bioware games comes close to the complexity and depth of Loghain.

[TEWR]

I'd like to post what I said in defense of General/Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir in another thread from the DAII forums. I shall also post the relevant bits that the poster I responded to brought up.

Not that any of what I've said below was brought up recently, but this is a Loghain thread, so... why the hell not?

==========================================================================

Renmiri1 wrote...

Loghain was not well written. His Warden recruitment at the end was IMHO, an attempt to fix the cheesy cartoony dark villain he was until the landsmeet.

And he flips 180 degrees. Turns noble, cares about his daughter and the warden.. Very forced and not well written also. But no one can say he was pure evil because he regrets stuff and offers his life.

He always cared about Anora. That whole idea that Loghain would've killed his daughter? Complete BS. Howe approached Loghain with the idea, but Loghain refused to do such a thing -- something he'll tell you if you spare him.

That wouldn't have stopped Howe from doing such a thing though, because Howe is the very definition of Complete Monster. He does things For the Evulz.

Nope, not buying.

FFS he pratically raised Caillan and left him to die. A good general could have left the battle when he saw their forces outnumbered,

That's what he did. 

You could argue that he should've attempted to save Cailan with a contingent of men ordered to do so -- whether they would succeed is irrelevant, though given how quickly he dies by Ogre and I'm assuming the mass of Darkspawn between Cailan and Loghain he couldn't have been saved -- but he did order a tactical withdrawal from the battlefield when it became apparent that they were outnumbered.

And Cailan's death was his own doing. Cailan was a spoiled brat, wanting to play war and fascinated with glory -- be it glory he wanted or the glory of others in legends.

Had Loghain attempted to rescue Cailan and failed, that would've been a politically sound move to try and get Ferelden to unify under his banner, as he did attempt to save their king.

But no one has ever called Loghain a brilliant politician. He isn't.
 

but the same good general would not poison the leader of the largest surviving army, refused help and tried to kill the 2 people who could help again the large darkspawn horde he saw with his own 2 eyes.

Writters dropped the ball on Loghain and then tried a Hail Mary saving pass. Didn't save it for me

Yea, no they didn't.

Let's look at if from his perspective, as opposed to the "OMG He's so EVUL!!!" one he's unfortunately painted with all too often.

Eamon was a threat to the nation's well-being after Loghain was forced to make a judgement call at Ostagar. We know that Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar, as Loghain has been with the King at the fortress for the entire time -- something Duncan states in the HN and Mage Origins.

Eamon would've been clouded by his relationship to Cailan and more then likely would've failed to see the actual necessity of the withdrawal. He would've instigated a civil war I'm willing to bet. Loghain didn't want this to happen. So he tasked Jowan -- whom he met in Denerim, as Jowan states -- to go to Redcliffe to teach Connor about magic and administer the poison to Eamon, but this poison was only supposed to render Eamon comatose.

Nothing more. If Eamon's condition worsened to the point of death, Berwick would've reported to someone in Loghain's cadre saying such, and Loghain would send the antidote.

Now, of course, Connor went to the Desire Demon pleading for Eamon to be saved. He didn't know Eamon wouldn't have died -- or that it was an unlikely scenario, anyway -- and so that's why he did so. And the demon did keep Eamon alive. She just kept his state of being from worsening.

Also, I very much doubt Eamon is the leader of the largest surviving army. That'd technically fall to either Loghain himself -- commanding the Teyrnir of Gwaren, as opposed to Eamon's Arling -- or Rendon Howe -- who by the time of the Battle at Ostagar, has claimed Highever and Denerim along with his already claimed Arling of Amaranthine.

As for the Wardens? Again, let's look at it from his perspective.

Here is a man who, for all his time at Ostagar, has not been told just how the Wardens know it's a Blight, other then vague comments where they say they "can feel it". While we the players know for a fact the Wardens are necessary, let's not forget that Loghain doesn't. We know the intricacies of the Joining. He doesn't. Not during Ostagar, anyway.

Duncan failed to tell Cailan or Loghain about these Warden secrets, which may have convinced Loghain that they're truly necessary. Had he known that they were linked to the Darkspawn hive-mind and could actually sense the Archdemon -- specifically, not those vague comments Alistair says Duncan told them -- then he would've realized "These guys are necessary."

All he had to go on were vague notions that they're necessary and tales about their prowess in battle. For all he knew, they were no different then the regular soldier, with only one thing distinguishing the Wardens from a soldier: they just fight Darkspawn all the time.

That could've been the extent of it as far as he knew.

Now, I'll say for the record that I personally find the army to bear the weight of the blame, but the Wardens aren't without blame either. I give the army 60% of the blame, at most. If not 60%, I often split it evenly, as Duncan's actions prior to Ostagar show that he should've been pressed by the army as to the validity of the claims to the nature of the Blight -- his reason for going to Orzammar is to find evidence of the Archdemon.

But then again, the Wardens are supposed to do whatever it takes to defeat the Blights. One would think this would include lying about finding evidence on the Archdemon to make people believe it's a Blight and telling the heads of state and generals about Warden secrets.

But let's also examine Cailan. Here is a child trapped in a man's body who is fascinated with war so much he wants glory for himself. He finds strategy sessions boring, wants to be the one to kill the Archdemon with his father's blade, and goes on and on about glory.

During the battle, he ruins the plan Loghain put forth -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy -- during the session. Instead of having the men in the back -- maybe a couple of rows -- firing constant volleys of arrows into the Darkspawn ranks, he has them fire only one volley. 

Instead of keeping the Mabari hounds alongside his soldiers, he sends them out as little more then fodder troops where they kill, at most, 1-2 Darkspawn each before dying.

Instead of having the majority of his forces holding the line with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, he orders all of his troops to charge out into the open, where they're then besieged by the Darkspawn on all sides.

While it's extremely unlikely that Ostagar could've been won using what forces they had there, Cailan's idiocy doomed them from the start.

And during the strategy session, the Wardens failed to speak up about their necessity or offering any real insight into how the battle could play out.

Now, let's jump to what happens in the Tower of Ishal.

We the players are tasked with the duty of lighting the signal fire so that Loghain's men will know when to charge. The opportune moment for such a thing was when all the Darkspawn were in the valley, so that Loghain's men could corral the Darkspawn and begin to take them down. I refer you to KnightofPhoenix's blog images on the subject of Ostagar.



Now, we the players -- as well as Alistair, the Warden, the Mabari, a Mage, and a Soldier in the Tower -- know that the signal was delayed due to the Darkspawn invading the Tower. I'll tackle how this is Bioware's fault on being contradictory in their writing later.

As Alistair himself notes, the signal was surely delayed too much due to the Darkspawn.

Loghain however, did not know the Darkspawn had delayed the signal fire. Because of how late it comes -- and how fractured the army is now -- he believes that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so as to weaken Ferelden's national stability -- what with the King dying, and in his mind them hoping he'd lead his men to death too.

Because if that happened, Ferelden would've had no choice but to rely on Orlesian assistance during the Blight, which would be a repeat of what they've done in Blights past.

In his mind, the Wardens are helping the Orlesians, as they've done in the past. In Blights past, the Orlesians used the Blights as a reason for "aiding" nations too weakened by the Darkspawn to stand on their own, and then after the Blight was ended they made it a point to never leave.

For more insight on that, see the history of Nevarra, the Free Marches, and IIRC the Anderfels.

As such, he truly believed the delay of the signal fire was done on purpose by the Wardens to weaken Ferelden and give Orlais the moment to "aid" the nation. Orlais itself has used the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage by helping further their expansionist policies, of which Empress Celene I was reputed to be an expansionist herself in Origins -- changed to being a peaceloving monarch in DAII.

So let's recap, shall we?

1) He knows little about why the Order is necessary.
2) Cailan believed that the presence of the Wardens was enough to win the battle. In truth, it wasn't, and Ostagar using Loghain's strategy -- or even what forces they did have there -- was unwinnable. This isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won had more forces been present and the place better fortified. I'm certain Ostagar could've been won, had things been different.
3) The Wardens did not speak up on anything that could help fight the Darkspawn.
4) Cailan ruined the battle plan.
5) The signal fire was delayed to the point of being too late -- and not accurate, as Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds. For what reason, Loghain didn't know. But based on history, he had strong inclinations as to why it was so. He was wrong, but he didn't know the real reason.
6) Orlais has a history of using the Wardens and the Blights as grounds to further their expansionist policies, something Loghain brings up at the first Landsmeet.

From all of this alone, his opinions of the Wardens is not very high. He can only view them as Orlesian tools, because that's all the evidence has shown itself to be for him. He didn't have all the facts, but from what he did know it was not painted very well in the Wardens' favor.

Let's not forget the rebellion that happened in centuries past by Sophia Dryden -- a justified rebellion, but the truth was never publicly known. Let's also not forget that what happens in The Calling further adds fuel to the fires of why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens.

===========================================================================

Now, I said I'd tackle the whole Tower of Ishal failure on Bioware's part. This stems from them failing to properly keep their own character -- Loghain -- consistent with how he's portrayed.

He became Teyrn of Gwaren in 9:11 Dragon, so he's been the ruling lord of that area for 19 years. His own codex states that he's a man who wishes to know where his borders end and how best to defend them.

And yet Bioware made it a point to have Loghain completely in the dark about Ostagar's structure. This is a blatant failure of their writing, as David Gaider -- the man who wrote Loghain, IIRC -- failed to keep Loghain consistent.

Then, when we find out about the Tower's lower levels, we find that Loghain's first action was to... explore them? On the eve of a major battle? This is a failure from a military strategy point of view as well as writing, because while you should know the layout of a fortress Loghain should've already known all of this in the 19 years he was Teyrn of Gwaren and general of Ferelden, the man whose strategies kicked the Orlesians out of the nation.

But because he didn't know, we're supposed to be able to believe that the more sensible course of action when Darkspawn are at your heels in the Wilds is to explore these lower caverns? Seriously? NO. It's to immediately seal them up, preferably in such a way that they're unusable by the Darkspawn as it's pretty evident that these caverns will lead to the Wilds -- indeed, they lead into the very valley Cailan was in.

And before anyone goes "So doesn't this mean he deliberately left the Tower open to invasion and used the Darkspawn to justify leaving Cailan", no it doesn't. Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the Tower being invaded by Darkspawn nor did he plan such a thing. It was an unexpected thing.

The failure here being that the people that wrote the Ostagar scenario -- not the Cailan moment, but the Tower of Ishal thing and Loghain's ignorance on the entire fortress -- is a critical failure in military warfare knowledge and consistent writing of Loghain Mac Tir.

As such, the blame falls on Bioware.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Not to sound patronizing, but....I'm proud of you Ethereal :')

I can rest my Loghain defense mandate knowing it's in good hands.

[TEWR]

Thank you .

I'll admit that some of your posts and musings on the subject helped a great deal, as you had more experience with posts on the matter then I -- specifically Gaider-related ones.

Not in the vein that they changed my perception of him -- I always wanted to spare him, right from the get-go. Couldn't in my first playthrough -- but in that there were things I didn't realize that your posts helped me to -- either directly or indirectly.

My hope is to create someone that can match the awesomeness of Loghain Mac Tir for my own video game series I'm fleshing out in my free time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Interesting, what kind of series?

[Rikku Moon]

I think Loghaian had EVERY right to do what he did to Cailan. In a way he wasn't just trying to protect Ferelden from both the Blight and another Orlesian invasion because of the marriage alliance Cailan was plotting with the Orlesian Empress revealed, in the Return to Ostagar EP, but he was also trying to protect his daughter as well.

This whole marriage plans with the empress might not have even happened if it weren't for several things. Cailain might have acted like a kid half the time, but he was also thinking like a king in some ways.

No matter how happy/unhappy he MIGHT have been in marriage if he had stayed with Anora for the good of the kingdom seeing how popular she might have been, but there was just that ONE annoying thing that was missing in their lives that would have made Anora's removal from the throne a certainty.

Its the lack of royal KIDS for the throne, that set off cailans plans to find another bride, that led to his marriage plans with the empress of orlais that wound up getting him killed in ostagar when loghain took his army and abandoned the battlefield leaving all those people to die because he somehow found out about what cailan was planning to do that would not only hurt anora but all of ferelden as well.

Ban Eamon even pointed it out in the letters in the RTO expansion, than Cailan and Anora had been married for YEARS, and hadn't produced a single mini Cailan or mini Anora to succeed the throne if anything happened to them.

One of the royal couple was incapable of producing children, and in that kind of world it would be wise to assume its the bride who's barren and thus useless as a wife when it comes to providing heirs for her man, while the studly fertile husband is in need of a new bride to procreate with and get the heirs needed to make sure his families bloodline doesn't die out.

In Eamon's letters he pointed out that if Cailan wanted to continue his exhalted family bloodline, he HAD to set Anora aside and remarry someone else in order to get LEGITIMATE royal heirs to the throne, that is if it REALLY was Anora who was at fault for the lack of royal children running around the palace. *lol*

and it was EAMON who 'suggested' in his letters that Cailain try looking in Orlais for a new bride instead of looking for one in Ferelden, thus Cailan meeting up with and start making marriage plans with the Empress of Orlais while still married to Anora.

Modifié par Rikku Moon, 18 septembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Interesting, what kind of series?

Fantasy RPG, in the way of such works as Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire, Lord of the Rings, Dragon Age, and Elder Scrolls.

Not in a way that it's just a mashup of those things -- though it would maybe take elements from them -- but in that it will try and be very political/philosophical as well as epic.

I already have the Dwarven Noble Origin worked out, as well as an idea for the Human Noble Origin and an Elven Origin. Additionally, I have some ideas that I've been thinking about greatly for Elven lore/mythos and Dwarven lore/mythos/society.

Plus, I have the main enemy already roughly characterized -- a list of tropes he falls under. He'd be the equivalent of the Archdemon of DAO, but I've made it a point to make him not be something that'd fall under the title "Big Bad", in the sense that he's just some chaotic evil monstrosity whose sole purpose is to destroy while the Hero saves the day.

I mean, he'd destroy, but not just for destruction's sake.

Because for this guy, I'd despise having him called such. He isn't the Loghain person I want to make though, but I'd say he's definitely a character to like.

On my laptop, I even had a list of various things that are a part of this series, but since my laptop encountered a... driver error (IIRC) months ago, that data is unavailable. Still there, but unaccessible. In hindsight, I should've sent an e-mail of the document to myself.

If I could get a job in a game development company as a writer, I could get a lot more done then what I have so far. As of right now, I'm just one man with a dream and a very determined mind.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[TEWR]

Ban Eamon even pointed it out in the letters in the RTO expansion, than Cailan and Anora had been married for YEARS, and hadn't produced a single mini Cailan or mini Anora to succeed the throne if anything happened to them.

1) Arl Eamon, not Bann Eamon.

2) Take into account that by Anora's testimony Cailan was a womanizer. I'm led to believe by that and the continued absence of children that it was his seed that was the problem, not Anora's ability to have kids.

3) Loghain didn't actually know at the time of Ostagar that was what was happening between Cailan and Celene. It was originally considered by Bioware, but ultimately scrapped and revisited in RtO by having Loghain call it out. Judging by his reaction, he had no idea this was even being planned by either of the two corresponding nobles.

He's infuriated, surely. But he never says anything in the sense that he suspected it.

All those letters really do is make him angrier at Cailan for being even more foolish then he originally thought. He still mourns Cailan's death since he was Maric's son and his (foolish) king, but his respect for Cailan has gone down a bit.

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ban Eamon even pointed it out in the letters in the RTO expansion, than Cailan and Anora had been married for YEARS, and hadn't produced a single mini Cailan or mini Anora to succeed the throne if anything happened to them.

1) Arl Eamon, not Bann Eamon.

2) Take into account that by Anora's testimony Cailan was a womanizer. I'm led to believe by that and the continued absence of children that it was his seed that was the problem, not Anora's ability to have kids.

3) Loghain didn't actually know at the time of Ostagar that was what was happening between Cailan and Celene. It was originally considered by Bioware, but ultimately scrapped and revisited in RtO by having Loghain call it out. Judging by his reaction, he had no idea this was even being planned by either of the two corresponding nobles.

He's infuriated, surely. But he never says anything in the sense that he suspected it.

All those letters really do is make him angrier at Cailan for being even more foolish then he originally thought. He still mourns Cailan's death since he was Maric's son and his (foolish) king, but his respect for Cailan has gone down a bit.

Umm isn't this the same guy who gets a nice approval boost if you turn Cailan into wolfchow?I always got the impression he mourned for the poor sods who died with the idiot.


And Duncan not telling folks about the joining does make sense actually considering the Wardens are already on thin ice as it is I doubt telling Loghain about how the joining is just a delayed death sentence for the "recruiets" would help much.

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Umm isn't this the same guy who gets a nice approval boost if you turn Cailan into wolfchow?I always got the impression he mourned for the poor sods who died with the idiot.

I think the reason why he approves is that you're giving Cailan the same type of funeral any other soldier might receive after a battle where deaths had occurred.

Sure, Denerim holds funerals for the people lost at Ostagar, but those are without bodies. Cailan's already had a funeral at Denerim, so why should he be given special treatment over the lives of the other soldiers? Because he's king? He wanted to play war, and he lost his life to such a game. So shouldn't his body meet the same fate as that of any other soldier?

If he truly hated Cailan, he would've given approval for leaving him for the Darkspawn. But he doesn't. In fact, he makes it clear that even Cailan, for all of his foolishness, doesn't deserve to be strung up by them.

Additionally, Loghain's remarks when confronted on Cailan's death during the Landsmeet -- and more importantly, the toolset notes and WoG -- show that he did, in fact, care about Cailan.

Granted, I've never once left Cailan to the wolves or the Darkspawn, even with Loghain in my party. So if Loghain says anything when you make any of the other two choices, I don't know. All I know is that he remarks very much in character about how giving him a funeral pyre is like glorifying him even further and saying that, had he lived, he wouldn't have been such a stubborn and idiotic fool of a king.

What Loghain's approving of is that you're not trying to romanticize his death, I think. But I'm not much of an expert on romanticism vs. realism and whatnot. That's more tklivory's field of expertise, methinks.

And I'll admit, even I'm torn by Cailan's death and later fate. Every time. I hold no respect for him as a King, but as a person he's got my respect. He may have killed himself by his own actions, but he did go out with a real moment of badassery -- smirking at the Ogre as it's about to crush him.

He wanted to play at war, and he failed to win. But let it never be said that he went into that good night gently, despite having not been smart before or during the battle's beginning segments. He gave it his all, to the end.

And Duncan not telling folks about the joining does make sense actually considering the Wardens are already on thin ice as it is I doubt telling Loghain about how the joining is just a delayed death sentence for the "recruiets" would help much.

He doesn't need to be told "Oh we'll be dead in 30 years". Not that saying such a thing would necessarily be bad for Loghain to hear in regards to his trust of the Wardens, but still.

Duncan doesn't need to brag to every man, woman, and child about the intricacies of the Joining. All he needs to do is have a secret meeting with Cailan and Loghain -- the head of state and General of the Army, respectively -- and tell them a few key details. Like how they're linked to the Darkspawn hive mind because of just what the Wardens do, and can hear exactly what goes through the Darkspawn's minds. And that they can legitimately sense the presence of the Darkspawn, because of that connection.

That alone would've told Loghain about their importance in the Blights. That the reason why they're so crucial to the fight against the Darkspawn is that they're able to manipulate what might be a curse into a useful asset in battle.

No details on what the Joining is would've been given to Loghain or Cailan -- for the record, it's blood magic to those with an appropriate understanding of such things. But it would've helped a great deal to improving relations

Hell, he could even lie and say "When I was in the Deep Roads earlier this month, I found signs of the Archdemon being real."

Now, this isn't to say that Loghain, Cailan, or anyone else in the army shouldn't have pressed the Wardens on such things either. That's why I say both sides are at fault. How much blame one ascribes to each party varies depending on who you ask.

[TEWR]

I'm curious if given the current world-state -- especially with Orlais and Ferelden -- we'll see Loghain again, if he was spared.

[Fiacre]

I'm not sure if I really want that or not. On one side, it does make sense and would be pretty awesome (unless they somehow manage to screw up the writing for his character), on the other one, most former companions comment about the Warden, and while Loghain doing so could be pretty cool -- especially if it's someone like an absentee son-in-law, I'm sceptical of everything involving the Warden in DA3. (I'm not quite sure why, actually, since I did like the comments made about him in DA2...)

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Loghain will never return, whether you spared him or not. He didn't get any mention in DA2 except being a traitor, even if you did spare him. Loghain's gone for good. And, given the future Ive seen projected, hinted at, even potentially leaked, I think it is better if he doesnt return. They would just ruin him.

[TEWR]

To be fair, he was mentioned as a traitor by 3 in-game people who can only perceive him as such, one of them being a person who doesn't actually know Loghain or the circumstances and only knows what his friend -- a Guard-Captain -- has probably told him of that night.

David Gaider's also said that if Loghain were to return, it would have to have some actual relevance to the story and importance and not be a meaningless cameo -- which one could argue his Awakening one was just that.

But perhaps it is better if he remains out of the game, because I'd rather they not ruin him like they're (apparently) doing to Morrigan by saying "Nope, she's not an atheist".

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[TEWR]

Also, since the Loghain debates have raged on for eons and we really have no more Loghain to discuss these days without rehashing the good times, I propose a new topic:

The Architect and the choice associated with him.

Thoughts on Archie?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 08:26 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Judging by Urthemiel and the Mother, he sucks at controlling such of the spawn as he does free.

Also, while I haven't played Dragon Age II, I think Nathaniel's sister's quest involves finding Nate in the Deep Roads? And he notes that he was attacked in a section of the Deep Roads the Architect swore was safe?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:45 .