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[Sarah1281]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We know that Ferelden nobility is very easy to divide. Celene is a genius. I am sure she would have been able to play them against each other as she asserts her control. Add 4 legions of chevaliers and well, it's clear who will dominate who.

She might still be able to pull it off if Alistair wound up as sole king. Remember, he still needs an heir. If he's single, easier for her to try to settle on in. Eamon would probably be all for it, considering he was suggesting to Cailan to dump Anora. And Eamon's influence on Alistair will be much greater than Eamon's influence on Cailan.

If Anora's sole ruler, Celene's screwed.

Any others, she'd have to somehow split up Alistair-Cousland or Anora-Cousland to get the man of the monarch in her bedroom.

Seriously, how does 'Eamon wants Anora out of the picture so Cailan can have civil war-preventing heir' translate to 'Eamon wants to sell Ferelden to Celene'? 

[Monica21]

Whacka wrote...
Back to the topic of Cailan and Celene:
Where does it say that Cailan was intending to marry with Celene? I haven't seen that anywhere... Besides, that seems like a hare-brained idea to me. But what would you expect of someone who has the mental capacity of a toilet? (Perhaps a bit exaggerated...)

Indeed it is hare-brained, but Gaider confirmed it in a ustream interview.

[MKDAWUSS]

Whacka wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

One thing I would like to see was the interaction between Teyrn Loghain and Empress Celene. I mean surely the two of them crossed paths during his assignment there...

I don't think you'd need a interaction between the two of them to know what would happen... 

The tension and the state-of-readiness would be so awesome to see regardless. How they'd warn each other on threats they'd never follow through on...

Back to the topic of Cailan and Celene:
Where does it say that Cailan was intending to marry with Celene? I haven't seen that anywhere... Besides, that seems like a hare-brained idea to me. But what would you expect of someone who has the mental capacity of a toilet? (Perhaps a bit exaggerated...)

Bartender/Bodahn rumors (cheating and barren), RTO correspondence letters.

[flexxdk]

Monica21 wrote...

Whacka wrote...
Back to the topic of Cailan and Celene:
Where does it say that Cailan was intending to marry with Celene? I haven't seen that anywhere... Besides, that seems like a hare-brained idea to me. But what would you expect of someone who has the mental capacity of a toilet? (Perhaps a bit exaggerated...)

Indeed it is hare-brained, but Gaider confirmed it in a ustream interview.

Could you give me a link to it?

I don't think that the Landsmeet would ever approve of this. But knowing how easily the Landsmeet can be divided in multiple parties (Celene would've just bribed half the Landsmeet, I suppose), it would've resulted into another civil war. And since Ferelden is already weakened by the Blight, it would've ended much worse.

Modifié par Whacka, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Monica21]

Whacka wrote...
Could you give me a link to it?

From page 43 and 44 of this thread, and she's added the link to the ustream:

phaonica wrote...

Ok, I quickly transcribed what DG said in that interview:

Question: Did Anora's infertility have anything to do with Cailan leaving her for the Empress of Orlais?
DG: Yes. They don't know for sure that she's infertile, but she wasn't having a child, and so Cailan was responding to advice that he was getting that was saying that maybe he had to marry someone because the Theirin bloodline wasn't exactly spreading out that much. He was the only son, or the only known son of Maric at the time, and Maric himself was the last of his line, so if Cailan didn't have a child, it opened up the possiblity of civil war in Ferelden once again.

References:

Dragon Age 2 PAX Day 3 David Gaider Interview
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107
(17:16)

phaonica wrote...

Question: Was Cailan really planning on leaving Anora for the Empress of Orlais, or was Loghain exaggerating?
DG: You know actually its funny, that was a plot that was originally in Origins, and we couldn't include it. The Empress of Orlais was supposed to have been visiting Denerim during the time of the Blight. We had a whole plot prepared for it, but that's the way development goes--things get cut all the time. So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a a callback to what was happening there. The plan was actually originally was, yes, that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora originally and Loghain discovered what was going on, (in an ominous/ironic/sarcastic kind of tone) but of course that's not why he did what he did--right?--Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is.

editing for references:

tuppence95 wrote...

 Gaider Q&A - http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

Talk about the CE's mother - 09:35
Templars using phylactories - 09:55
Seeing DAO characters - 11:00
Cailain - Anora - Loghain - 13:25
Anders - Alistair - 20:49

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/4405199/137#4683680

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

I can't see any circumstance (other than Ferelden short-sightedness) where this wouldn't have led to civil war. Even if the nobles were bought, the banns and freeholders would have done what they did under Loghain's regency, just with more vengeance. I just can't see them sitting quietly by and letting it happen. But then again, four legions of Chevaliers is a lot. Even without the civil war, the Blight would have left most of the country with not much left to fight back with.

Do you think that the Fereldens' short-sightedness does not have enough support in the game to warrant considering how it might have affected the marriage decision? The Fereldens were so quick to risk having Orlesian troops in Ferelden to "help" them with the darkspawn, and despite their thinking that the Blight was the highest priority, they still decided to civil war with Loghain. Then you have Alistair and Wynne thinking the marriage was a peaceful solution. So I'm not sure the Landsmeet would have thrown a fit over the marriage, considering all that.

Edit: Also, I'm considering how this marriage proposal might have gone down when they didn't know about the Blight, yet. I'm assuming that the Blight was not a part of the marriage plan.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[phaonica]

I put the info in a blog, too, so it's easier to reference:
David Gaider PAX Interview - Cailan's intent to marry Celene Confirmed

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...
Do you think that the Fereldens' short-sightedness does not have enough support in the game to warrant considering how it might have affected the marriage decision? The Fereldens were so quick to risk having Orlesian troops in Ferelden to "help" them with the darkspawn, and despite their thinking that the Blight was the highest priority, they still decided to civil war with Loghain. Then you have Alistair and Wynne thinking the marriage was a peaceful solution. So I'm not sure the Landsmeet would have thrown a fit over the marriage, considering all that.

Well, now I'm rethinking this. Consider that there's no Blight. Loghain still has a vote in the Landsmeet and so does Bryce. I don't see either of them falling for Celene's tricks, and certainly not Loghain. Eamon can be more easily bought, but I don't know if he would risk going against Loghain and Bryce.

There wouldn't be Chevaliers on the border without the Blight and Cailan was planning this prior to it. I'm going back and forth on this, but I don't see how Cailan could have pulled it off. Unless the arls and banns were bought to go against Bryce and Loghain, which could easily happen.

[MKDAWUSS]

Sarah1281 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We know that Ferelden nobility is very easy to divide. Celene is a genius. I am sure she would have been able to play them against each other as she asserts her control. Add 4 legions of chevaliers and well, it's clear who will dominate who.

She might still be able to pull it off if Alistair wound up as sole king. Remember, he still needs an heir. If he's single, easier for her to try to settle on in. Eamon would probably be all for it, considering he was suggesting to Cailan to dump Anora. And Eamon's influence on Alistair will be much greater than Eamon's influence on Cailan.

If Anora's sole ruler, Celene's screwed.

Any others, she'd have to somehow split up Alistair-Cousland or Anora-Cousland to get the man of the monarch in her bedroom.

Seriously, how does 'Eamon wants Anora out of the picture so Cailan can have civil war-preventing heir' translate to 'Eamon wants to sell Ferelden to Celene'? 

Ask Loghain - he can 'splain it to ya'.

[Sarah1281]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We know that Ferelden nobility is very easy to divide. Celene is a genius. I am sure she would have been able to play them against each other as she asserts her control. Add 4 legions of chevaliers and well, it's clear who will dominate who.

She might still be able to pull it off if Alistair wound up as sole king. Remember, he still needs an heir. If he's single, easier for her to try to settle on in. Eamon would probably be all for it, considering he was suggesting to Cailan to dump Anora. And Eamon's influence on Alistair will be much greater than Eamon's influence on Cailan.

If Anora's sole ruler, Celene's screwed.

Any others, she'd have to somehow split up Alistair-Cousland or Anora-Cousland to get the man of the monarch in her bedroom.

Seriously, how does 'Eamon wants Anora out of the picture so Cailan can have civil war-preventing heir' translate to 'Eamon wants to sell Ferelden to Celene'? 

Ask Loghain - he can 'splain it to ya'.

 Loghain doesn't actually mention thinking Eamon is being complicit with Cailan's scheme to marry Celene although I'm sure he's pissed by the plan to set aside Anora.

[flexxdk]

I see... Thanks for the links.

I bet Loghain would be pissed if Cailan would divorce with Anora just because of her infertility. Add Cailan's plans to marry with Celene to that, and you'll have yourself a confrontation between them two.

But wouldn't you think that Eamon would've thought about what might happen if Cailan marries Celene? Seeing the immaturity of Cailan, one could assume that Celene would grab the throne for herself while Cailan stands on the sideline, playing with his plastic toy swords.

[MKDAWUSS]

Whacka wrote...
But wouldn't you think that Eamon would've thought about what might happen if Cailan marries Celene? Seeing the immaturity of Cailan, one could assume that Celene would grab the throne for herself while Cailan stands on the sideline, playing with his plastic toy swords.

Isn't that what Anora basically did? She played politics while he played Call of Duty?

[flexxdk]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Whacka wrote...
But wouldn't you think that Eamon would've thought about what might happen if Cailan marries Celene? Seeing the immaturity of Cailan, one could assume that Celene would grab the throne for herself while Cailan stands on the sideline, playing with his plastic toy swords.

Isn't that what Anora basically did? She played politics while he played Call of Duty?

Oops, I forgot. My bad.

Still, you'd think that Eamon would've thought about the consequences. If Celene would grab the throne, who knows what she would've done. 
Ferelden would most likely be divived then, too. But how would a few arlings and banns stand against a massive army existing out of Chevaliers? And since Ferelden has been under attack of a Blight, it would've been seriously weakened. The repairments that were done so far would've been a waste of money and time; everything would be razed to the ground once again, but then by Chevaliers instead of Darkspawn.

Modifié par Whacka, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Sarah1281]

Whacka wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Whacka wrote...
But wouldn't you think that Eamon would've thought about what might happen if Cailan marries Celene? Seeing the immaturity of Cailan, one could assume that Celene would grab the throne for herself while Cailan stands on the sideline, playing with his plastic toy swords.

Isn't that what Anora basically did? She played politics while he played Call of Duty?

Oops, I forgot. My bad.

Still, you'd think that Eamon would've thought about the consequences.

Which is why I highly doubt he was in support of the Celene/Cailan marriage. There are plenty of Ferelden noblewomen who would love to be Queen as well as non-Empress Orlesian ones and nobility from other lands besides the two. Fergus only faced a little bit of censure for marrying an Antivan noblewoman and she - personally or politically - didn't seem to be a problem at all.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Do you think that the Fereldens' short-sightedness does not have enough support in the game to warrant considering how it might have affected the marriage decision? The Fereldens were so quick to risk having Orlesian troops in Ferelden to "help" them with the darkspawn, and despite their thinking that the Blight was the highest priority, they still decided to civil war with Loghain. Then you have Alistair and Wynne thinking the marriage was a peaceful solution. So I'm not sure the Landsmeet would have thrown a fit over the marriage, considering all that.

Well, now I'm rethinking this. Consider that there's no Blight. Loghain still has a vote in the Landsmeet and so does Bryce. I don't see either of them falling for Celene's tricks, and certainly not Loghain. Eamon can be more easily bought, but I don't know if he would risk going against Loghain and Bryce.

There wouldn't be Chevaliers on the border without the Blight and Cailan was planning this prior to it. I'm going back and forth on this, but I don't see how Cailan could have pulled it off. Unless the arls and banns were bought to go against Bryce and Loghain, which could easily happen.

Also, consider this, Loghain may not have known about the marriage before Ostagar, but he was considering that a some kind of confrontation for some reason between him and Cailan was likely enough to occur that he poisoned Eamon over it, and potentially sent Howe to Highever to preoccupy Bryce, too. So we might assume that both Eamon and Bryce would support Cailan over Loghain in matters concerning how Ostagar was handled. If they would have sided with Cailan against Loghain over matters concerning Ostagar, might they have also sided with Cailan against Loghain concerning the matter of peace with Orlais?

Modifié par phaonica, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Whacka wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Whacka wrote...
But wouldn't you think that Eamon would've thought about what might happen if Cailan marries Celene? Seeing the immaturity of Cailan, one could assume that Celene would grab the throne for herself while Cailan stands on the sideline, playing with his plastic toy swords.

Isn't that what Anora basically did? She played politics while he played Call of Duty?

Oops, I forgot. My bad.

Still, you'd think that Eamon would've thought about the consequences.

Which is why I highly doubt he was in support of the Celene/Cailan marriage. There are plenty of Ferelden noblewomen who would love to be Queen as well as non-Empress Orlesian ones and nobility from other lands besides the two. Fergus only faced a little bit of censure for marrying an Antivan noblewoman and she - personally or politically - didn't seem to be a problem at all.

You know who would have been an awesome candidate for Queen, rather than Celene? The unmarried Lady Cousland. hehe

[Persephone]

i43.tinypic.com/2qbaq20.jpg

Interesting comparison... Loghain & Alan Rickman...hmmmm

[flexxdk]

phaonica wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Do you think that the Fereldens' short-sightedness does not have enough support in the game to warrant considering how it might have affected the marriage decision? The Fereldens were so quick to risk having Orlesian troops in Ferelden to "help" them with the darkspawn, and despite their thinking that the Blight was the highest priority, they still decided to civil war with Loghain. Then you have Alistair and Wynne thinking the marriage was a peaceful solution. So I'm not sure the Landsmeet would have thrown a fit over the marriage, considering all that.

Well, now I'm rethinking this. Consider that there's no Blight. Loghain still has a vote in the Landsmeet and so does Bryce. I don't see either of them falling for Celene's tricks, and certainly not Loghain. Eamon can be more easily bought, but I don't know if he would risk going against Loghain and Bryce.

There wouldn't be Chevaliers on the border without the Blight and Cailan was planning this prior to it. I'm going back and forth on this, but I don't see how Cailan could have pulled it off. Unless the arls and banns were bought to go against Bryce and Loghain, which could easily happen.

Also, consider this, Loghain may not have known about the marriage before Ostagar, but he was considering that a some kind of confrontation for some reason between him and Cailan was likely enough to occur that he poisoned Eamon over it, and potentially sent Howe to Highever to preoccupy Bryce, too. So we might assume that both Eamon and Bryce would support Cailan over Loghain in matters concerning how Ostagar was handled. If they would have sided with Cailan against Loghain over matters concerning Ostagar, might they have also sided with Cailan gainst Loghain concerning the matter of peace with Orlais?

That's... very likely... Bryce has a good relationship with the Orlesians (or, at least, that's what you can make out of the Human Noble Origin throughout the game), so he probably would side with Cailan.

I'd assume Eamon would think twice about it, but, eventually, he probably would've sided with Cailan too.

[CalJones]

phaonica wrote...
Also, consider this, Loghain may not have known about the marriage before Ostagar, but he was considering that a some kind of confrontation for some reason between him and Cailan was likely enough to occur that he poisoned Eamon over it, and potentially sent Howe to Highever to preoccupy Bryce, too. So we might assume that both Eamon and Bryce would support Cailan over Loghain in matters concerning how Ostagar was handled. If they would have sided with Cailan against Loghain over matters concerning Ostagar, might they have also sided with Cailan against Loghain concerning the matter of peace with Orlais?

If you speak to Cailan's tent guard at Ostagar he says they were arguing over the queen - something that he did or she did. So it's more than possible that Loghain was aware something was up.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think it's very likely. The Couslands were royalists and saw the benefit of stopping the darkspawn before they could leak into the rest of the country but they weren't mindlessly loyal and they were also firmly on the side of the rebellion to regain their independence. There's no way that they would mindlessly welcome the Orlesians back and be in favor of selling the country for them so Cailan could get a shiny new title.

[DragonRacer13]

Persephone wrote...

i43.tinypic.com/2qbaq20.jpg

Interesting comparison... Loghain & Alan Rickman...hmmmm

I'd honestly like to see a comparison shot of Loghain side-by-side with Alan Rickman in his Severus Snape garb... even closer resemblance, honestly, with the long, black hair, dark eyes, similar noses...

Hmmm, I might go Internet scouring. There's one shot in particular that is similar camera angles on both of them that I'm picturing... must go find... BRB

(still didn't get your email, by the way... dunno what's up with the Interwebz  )

EDIT: Found what I was looking for...

(Loghain obviously)

EDIT: Hmm, okay, picture doesn't want to post. It's the last shot of the scene where Zevran is hired and Loghain is gazing into the fire with a conflicted expression.

EDIT: We'll try with a bit of Maeves_Child's artwork, since it's the same angle I'm thinking of...



Snape (not the best quality, but the only copy of this particular shot I could find)

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 06 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Remind me again why there's any reason that the Landsmeet could simply not recognize any heir of Cailan's with the Empress of Orlais, or even replace Cailan himself?

[Sarah1281]

Okay, hypothetical question: say the beacon was lit on time and Loghain decided to charge. It wasn't a decisive victory but the darkspawn left before the army was completely crushed so Cailan and some Wardens were still alive. Cailan lets the Orlesians into the country and, eventually, the Blight is defeated. He somehow gets the Landsmeet to accept his marriage to Celene. How would Loghain handle this? Would he grudgingly accept this or would he stage a rebellion that he couldn't win against the rest of Ferelden and Orlais?

[flexxdk]

I conclude that the following would happen with Loghain if Cailan would dump Anora for Celene:

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Remind me again why there's any reason that the Landsmeet could simply not recognize any heir of Cailan's with the Empress of Orlais, or even replace Cailan himself?

They might, but by the time it gets to the Landsmeet I'd wager that Celene is smart enough to work out back room deals to make sure the vote goes in her favor.