12857 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

Another thing to think about is how will the news be broken and what's going to happen afterwards? Cailan announces he's marrying Celene, Anora gets outraged, the Grand Cleric does the same to a lesser degree (I don't think the Chantry believes in divorces), Loghain's ready to raise his sword right there on Cailan and Celene, Cailan has his guards defend him, Cauthrien leads Loghain's men, Ceorlic and Howe lead their men, Eamon brings in his men, Cousland brings in his men, Alfstanna brings in her men, Bryland brings in his men, Wulff brings in his men, and before you know it you have an all out brawl that makes the Warden-Loghain brawl look like an organized event.

[Costin_Razvan]

The likely outcome leading to Cailan getting expulsed out of Denerim.

[Sarah1281]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Another thing to think about is how will the news be broken and what's going to happen afterwards? Cailan announces he's marrying Celene, Anora gets outraged, the Grand Cleric does the same to a lesser degree (I don't think the Chantry believes in divorces), Loghain's ready to raise his sword right there on Cailan and Celene, Cailan has his guards defend him, Cauthrien leads Loghain's men, Ceorlic and Howe lead their men, Eamon brings in his men, Cousland brings in his men, Alfstanna brings in her men, Bryland brings in his men, Wulff brings in his men, and before you know it you have an all out brawl that makes the Warden-Loghain brawl look like an organized event.

I don't think the Chantry mentioned anything of the sort about divorces and wouldn't it be easy to just have the marriage annulled as they never had a child and so they can claim it was unconsumated? Chances are Celene wouldn't just purposely ****** off the Chantry just to gain Ferelden.

[Costin_Razvan]

Celene is the absolute Monarch in Orlais above anyone else in law. Pissing off the Chantry isn't something she would worry about that much.

You think too defensively Sarah and trying to please everyone. Well here is a hint for you : You can't do that in Politics.

It's the same kind of leadership Harrowmont endorses, and we all know how well that goes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Calian was trying to do something retarded.

Honestly it would not work out well at all.



That said I think increased trade, and relations should be goals worth reaching for, and may in time help to heal many wounds.

Germany and France fought many brutal wars yet are strong allies today. Time does heal wounds, but Calian was trying to fast.

[Kryyptehk]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Calian was trying to do something retarded.
Honestly it would not work out well at all.

That said I think increased trade, and relations should be goals worth reaching for, and may in time help to heal many wounds.
Germany and France fought many brutal wars yet are strong allies today. Time does heal wounds, but Calian was trying to fast.

I agree, if Cailan's ancestor had seperated Ferelden and Orlais then Cailan marrying Celene might have been seen as the uniting of two nations, however, with Ferelden still getting back on it's feet after JUST getting out from under the heel of Orlais, it seemed rather like he was just giving away his country and throwing away everything his father did. Instead of uniting the two people, the land would be divided between two groups of people who fought against each other not to long ago. Hell, there are still veterans from that war that wouldn't take kindly to being Orlesian.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Celene is the absolute Monarch in Orlais above anyone else in law. Pissing off the Chantry isn't something she would worry about that much.

You think too defensively Sarah and trying to please everyone. Well here is a hint for you : You can't do that in Politics.

It's the same kind of leadership Harrowmont endorses, and we all know how well that goes.

What I was trying to say was that I don't think that Ferelden is so great a prize and that it can't be won through non-marital means that Celene would be willing to start a huge thing with the Chantry over it. She would likely at least try to get them on her side because they could cause problems for her. They might not win but would Ferelden really be worth alienating the Chantry over? In politics, though I know I'm hardly an expert, you would think that the goal is to ****** off as few powerful groups as possible to accomplish your goal. Saying 'I'm Empress so I'm going to marry Cailan and get Ferelden and **** the Chantry' really seems to run counter to practicality. Trying to make sure they're not going to cause problems for her does not necessarily equate to bending over backwards to please them. Being diplomatic is not a weakness.

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Celene is the absolute Monarch in Orlais above anyone else in law. Pissing off the Chantry isn't something she would worry about that much.

You think too defensively Sarah and trying to please everyone. Well here is a hint for you : You can't do that in Politics.

It's the same kind of leadership Harrowmont endorses, and we all know how well that goes.

A agree with Sarah, I think that pissing off the Chantry would be stupid, too, even for Celene. I can't currently imagine why Celene would be willing to ****** of the Chantry to gain Ferelden. That being said, though, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that a divorce would be against the Chant.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Germany and France fought many brutal wars yet are strong allies today. Time does heal wounds, but Calian was trying to fast.

Strong allies, yes. But did any of them think it a good idea to merge and become one country? Hell no.

[CalJones]

We don't know enough about the Chantry to determine whether it's forbidden or not. Still, a powerful ruler can always go against the church - Henry VIII more or less said up yours, I'll create my own church, and that's what he did.

I'm not so sure that Celene would go that route as the Chantry is based in Orlais already (whereas the Catholic Church is in Rome, and Henry obviously thought having a Church of England was a good idea).

[Raiil]

The Chantry is just as political as it is religious. Think about it. They're okay with treating elves like crap, they a-okayed Orlais ruling over Ferelden- the chantry will do what it thinks it's best for itself.



And apparently the Chantry only has annulment.

[Sarah1281]

An annullment should work since there was never a pregnancy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Keep in mind peopel taht the one who created the Chantry was Emperor Drakon, the same man who created the Orlesian Empire. While I do not believe that Celene can order them around, I think if there is any ruler that can influence them into accepting a course of action, it would be Celene. Not a coincidence that it was Orlais that declared the exalted marches and not any other country.

[CalJones]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Strong allies, yes. But did any of them think it a good idea to merge and become one country? Hell no.

Heh, well Germany failed to do it by force. But now we have the lovely EU and even lovelier Euro.
Of course I'm British and we're rather attached to our pound sterling and our independence (I admit the EU passport is handy, though). 

Modifié par CalJones, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[Herr Uhl]

CalJones wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Strong allies, yes. But did any of them think it a good idea to merge and become one country? Hell no.

Heh, well Germany failed to do it by forced. But now we have the lovely EU and even lovelier Euro.
Of course I'm British and we're rather attached to our pound sterling and our independence (I admit the EU passport is handy, though). 

But Britain is based on islands,  thus being clearly superior and it shouldn't be sullied with other countries that are part of the mainland.

Edit: Not that I'm one to talk, coming from Sweden. We have the passport though.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Raiil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

An annullment should work since there was never a pregnancy.

You can get an annullment for any number of reasons, if we base the Chantry off the Catholic Church. Eleanor of Aquitaine got one after having two daughters with her first husband. Lack of preggo would probably be the best excuse, but it would be stronger if it could be proved that it was Anora who was barren, which would we mean Cailan would have needed to knock someone up in order to have proof.


Anyways, the Chantry is a powerhouse, and like all powerhouses, they need allies. Celene is a much stronger one than Anora. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Herr Uhl wrote...

But Britain is based on islands,  thus being clearly superior and it shouldn't be sullied with other countries that are part of the mainland.

Naturally! It's why that horrible hair disease called "mullet" is rife on the continent, but alot rarer in Britain.

The EU is a German plot to accomplish Hitler's dream of mullets from the Atlantic to the Urals.

[Herr Uhl]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

But Britain is based on islands,  thus being clearly superior and it shouldn't be sullied with other countries that are part of the mainland.

Naturally! It's why that horrible hair disease called "mullet" is rife on the continent, but alot rarer in Britain.

The EU is a German plot to accomplish Hitler's dream of mullets from the Atlantic to the Urals.

Those problems are bravely fought by the noble Andorran people in order to keep it from spreading over the Pyrenees.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Germany and France fought many brutal wars yet are strong allies today. Time does heal wounds, but Calian was trying to fast.

Strong allies, yes. But did any of them think it a good idea to merge and become one country? Hell no.

The point I was more trying to make is that diplomacy, time, and good relations heal many wounds.
Not that France and Germany would merge, cause if you said that I doubt many Germans or French people would like it.

[MKDAWUSS]

Sarah1281 wrote...

An annullment should work since there was never a pregnancy.

Is the lack of pregnancy really grounds for annulment? I thought annulment was for things like misinformation or deception or extortion, none of which (I THINK) was involved in Calian's marriage to Anora.

[Sarah1281]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

An annullment should work since there was never a pregnancy.

Is the lack of pregnancy really grounds for annulment? I thought annulment was for things like misinformation or deception or extortion, none of which (I THINK) was involved in Calian's marriage to Anora.

If there was no pregnancy you can claim the marriage wasn't consummated which was definitely grounds for an annullment.

[Raiil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

An annullment should work since there was never a pregnancy.

Is the lack of pregnancy really grounds for annulment? I thought annulment was for things like misinformation or deception or extortion, none of which (I THINK) was involved in Calian's marriage to Anora.

If there was no pregnancy you can claim the marriage wasn't consummated which was definitely grounds for an annullment.

Traditionally it's a little more complicated than that... the woman has to undergo a test to see whether or not she's still 'unbroken' as it were. That's why Catharine of Aragon's supposed virginity during her short term marriage to Arthur Tudor was so hotly contested- they didn't do one. Barreness would probably be the going argument.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Maric, for example, wasn't automatically made King, even though his mother was Queen. Bryce Cousland could have been made King, but would have lost and had no interest. A Regent does need Landsmeet approval, and that goes for heirs as well as spouses.

I meant the marriage itself. But yes, the King needs the approval of the Landsmeet.

That she outmaneuvered her Orlesian rivals does not mean she has to outmaneuver her Ferelden opponents. Cailan, after all, is coming to her. All she has to do to win is be gracious and compromise, and maybe, maybe renenge on something farther down the line. (Or not, if such a thing would be too risky.) Celene doesn't have to be an active participant in order to win this opportunity.

Okay, then she promises Ferelden independence. But then you still have a political marriage, and an heir who probably doesn't really want Ferelden to keep its independence. Her long-term strategy would be to have her heir bring Ferelden to heel. Cailan's son would be seen in Denerim often enough. He might bring Chevaliers with him. Not many, but enough to provide a guard. He might suggest Chevaliers to fortify outposts. He might give land to Orlesian nobles. (Not kicking them off the land like under Meghren, but say, a bann who dies with no heirs.)

Point is, it doesn't have to be bloody, and it doesn't have to be immediate. If Cailan lives a long time then there's more than enough time for Ferelden to grow used to the idea of peaceful Chevaliers hanging about the countryside. Not to mention enough time for Bryce, Loghain and Eamon to die.

No, it's far easier. You don't have to live with a dead rebel queen in a country occupied for decades by the military superpower of the world, and it's only five lower nobles. The you have to live with a landsmeet decision, and with far more than just five people in on it.

Which could very well be comprised of a few Orlesians by then.

Modifié par Monica21, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[nos_astra]

Monica21 wrote...
Okay, then she promises Ferelden independence. But then you still have a political marriage, and an heir who probably doesn't really want Ferelden to keep its independence.

How old is Celene? She older than Anora, I thought. How much older?

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Okay, then she promises Ferelden independence. But then you still have a political marriage, and an heir who probably doesn't really want Ferelden to keep its independence.

How old is Celene? She older than Anora, I thought. How much older?

Is she older? I had the impression of her being 24-25.