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[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Okay, then she promises Ferelden independence. But then you still have a political marriage, and an heir who probably doesn't really want Ferelden to keep its independence.

How old is Celene? She older than Anora, I thought. How much older?

Is she older? I had the impression of her being 24-25.

Really? Tbh, I don't know where I got the impression that she's older.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Herr Uhl]

She allegedly ascended the throne at 17 after outmaneuvering her three older cousins. She makes Bhelen seem like Cailan in comparison.

[Costin_Razvan]

A agree with Sarah, I think that pissing off the Chantry would be stupid, too, even for Celene. I can't currently imagine why Celene would be willing to ****** of the Chantry to gain Ferelden. That being said, though, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that a divorce would be against the Chant.

And why not? Quite a great deal of leaders pissed off the Church and ruled just OK, and secondly. It's not Celene pissing off the Chantry, it's Cailan.

[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

She allegedly ascended the throne at 17 after outmaneuvering her three older cousins. She makes Bhelen seem like Cailan in comparison.

Interesting character. Good to know.

[flexxdk]

Herr Uhl wrote...

She allegedly ascended the throne at 17 after outmaneuvering her three older cousins. She makes Bhelen seem like Cailan in comparison.

She did? Well, Bhelen's nothing compared to that I guess... It's harder to outmaneuver three older cousins than two.

At any rate, it's interesting to know. I never knew that.

[Herr Uhl]

Whacka wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

She allegedly ascended the throne at 17 after outmaneuvering her three older cousins. She makes Bhelen seem like Cailan in comparison.

She did? Well, Bhelen's nothing compared to that I guess... It's harder to outmaneuver three older cousins than two.

At any rate, it's interesting to know. I never knew that.

Well, what I meant was rather that it is like comparing taking over Denmark and the US. There is a much larger scale for her.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, what I meant was rather that it is like comparing taking over Denmark and the US. There is a much larger scale for her.

Not really. All she had to do was get rid of 3 cousins and she got crowned. Not so different from what Bhelen did.

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well, what I meant was rather that it is like comparing taking over Denmark and the US. There is a much larger scale for her.

Not really. All she had to do was get rid of 3 cousins and she got crowned. Not so different from what Bhelen did.

And assassinating her uncle, according to rumor. And she didn't kill her cousins either, or at least I wouldn't know. I assume she just outdid them politically.

She also manages to rule without employing an iron fist (harder), and has brought a renaissance to Orlais. Granted, they have different countries to rule.

I imagine her as Anora with acting skills. And smarter.

Shameless plug of Celene-pic by LadyWinde.

[Costin_Razvan]

I would argue that it's much harder for Bhelen to take over the throne and keep it considering the nature of Orzammar politics and the Assembly.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A agree with Sarah, I think that pissing off the Chantry would be stupid, too, even for Celene. I can't currently imagine why Celene would be willing to ****** of the Chantry to gain Ferelden. That being said, though, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that a divorce would be against the Chant.

And why not? Quite a great deal of leaders pissed off the Church and ruled just OK, and secondly. It's not Celene pissing off the Chantry, it's Cailan.

Pissing them off=huge hassle. She is going to consider whether gaining Ferelden through nonviolent means (save any rebellions) is worth it. And would the Chantry, if they really have a problem with Cailan getting a divorce, focus all their ire on him and be perfectly fine with the woman who marries him after he illegally (in their eyes) ends his marriage? Sure she can rule fine after pissing them off but the reason everyone doesn't just blow off their religious powerhouse is because it causes problems and if the payoff is not worth the hassle then they aren't going to incur needless hassle.

From the wiki...
9:00 Dragon: Led by the young King Maric, Ferelden successfully rebels and throws off Orlesian rule. Ferelden and Orlais officially make peace in 9:20 after the ascension of Empress Celene to the Orlesian throne.

If that's true and she came to power at 17 that would make her 27 in-game and thus as Anora-range age...which Eamon and Cailan are already concerned with.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well, what I meant was rather that it is like comparing taking over Denmark and the US. There is a much larger scale for her.

Not really. All she had to do was get rid of 3 cousins and she got crowned. Not so different from what Bhelen did.

Except that she cant do it with nearly as much style.
But then again who does compare to Bhelen.

[Costin_Razvan]

Pissing them off=huge hassle. She is going to consider whether gaining Ferelden through nonviolent means (save any rebellions) is worth it. And would the Chantry, if they really have a problem with Cailan getting a divorce, focus all their ire on him and be perfectly fine with the woman who marries him after he illegally (in their eyes) ends his marriage? Sure she can rule fine after pissing them off but the reason everyone doesn't just blow off their religious powerhouse is because it causes problems and if the payoff is not worth the hassle then they aren't going to incur needless hassle.

"Laughs" Sorry Sarah, but again I must repeat myself: You are defensive, seeking to please everyone out. Only a fool does that in politics and hopes to win. Celene didn't become Empress by being nice, but through assassination.



What will the Chantry do? Declare an Exalted March her? Celene is quite secure in her powerhouse in Orlais, and the Templars would be slaughtered like pigs. Excommunicate Celene? Well then the Chantry losses Orlais as it's base. ( and it might as well declare itself dead if that happens )



You are under the assumption that if Cailan rennounced Anora then Chantry wouldn't abide by it, but here's a shocker for you: There would be repercussions for the Chantry if they did that, since Celene has far more power then they do.



Secondly. The Chantry is more like the Orthodox Church under Byzantine Thumb then the Catholic Church.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pissing them off=huge hassle. She is going to consider whether gaining Ferelden through nonviolent means (save any rebellions) is worth it. And would the Chantry, if they really have a problem with Cailan getting a divorce, focus all their ire on him and be perfectly fine with the woman who marries him after he illegally (in their eyes) ends his marriage? Sure she can rule fine after pissing them off but the reason everyone doesn't just blow off their religious powerhouse is because it causes problems and if the payoff is not worth the hassle then they aren't going to incur needless hassle.

"Laughs" Sorry Sarah, but again I must repeat myself: You are defensive, seeking to please everyone out. Only a fool does that in politics and hopes to win. Celene didn't become Empress by being nice, but through assassination.

What will the Chantry do? Declare an Exalted March her? Celene is quite secure in her powerhouse in Orlais, and the Templars would be slaughtered like pigs. Excommunicate Celene? Well then the Chantry losses Orlais as it's base. ( and it might as well declare itself dead if that happens )

You are under the assumption that if Cailan rennounced Anora then Chantry wouldn't abide by it, but here's a shocker for you: There would be repercussions for the Chantry if they did that, since Celene has far more power then they do.

Secondly. The Chantry is more like the Orthodox Church under Byzantine Thumb then the Catholic Church.

I didn't say that I thought that the Chantry could win. I said that there is no point in pissing off the Chantry if gaining Ferelden through an alliance is less valuable than the support of the Chantry. How the hell am I being too defensive in saying that, in politics, it's a stupid idea to needlessly antagonize people? If you need to for your plans then that's fine but what I'm saying is that Ferelden's importance really isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things and the benefits of the Chantry and Empress working together likely outweigh that.

Celene technically could decide to punch the Divine out without losing power. Would she? No because no matter how much she might personally hate the Divine, it is needlessly antagonizing the Chantry. That's a bad idea. Where you seem to get the idea that diplomacy has no place in politics is beyond me because if you ****** absolutely everybody off, sooner or later they will come after you. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to bow to all their whims but it means that you're not going to be stupid and make unnecessary enemies left and right.

[Sarah1281]

Seriously, all I'm saying is this: Suppose that the Chantry would find something you plan to do in blatant violation of one of their important teachings. Is what you are going to do more important than keeping the Chantry happy at you? If so, do it. If not, don't do it. If gaining Ferelden is that important, ignore their divorce thing and do it. If getting a steak for dinner is not that important, abide by their hypothetical 'no meat on Friday' thing. That doesn't require being obsessed with keeping people happy, it only requires making sure the reward outweighs the cost.

[Costin_Razvan]

You honestly believe that gaining another Circle tower, Denerim ( birth place of Andraste ) Amaranthine ( a highly visited place by Pilgrims ), Andraste's resting place along with a LARGE stretch of Land which allows you better access to the sea would not be worth pissing the Chantry off? If so, then wake up to the real world girl. because that kind of gain would sure as hell be worth the cost.



And when in the sodding nine hells have I said that Diplomacy has NO place in politics? Diplomacy does not equal to keeping everyone pleased. That's the same kind of idiotic rules Harrowmont follows, and I do not need to say how a complete fool Harrowmont is as a ruler.



Diplomacy equals to finding a sort of compromise that favors BOTH parties, not one or another. Celene refusing to conquer Fereldan because of what the Chantry MIGHT say, and do ( and that's a very big might ) is her being a complete and utter tool. Yes, sometimes it is good to bow down, but the gain in this situation is strong enough that she SHOULD put her foot down and tell the Chantry to go to hell, and she would do just that if she is even 10% of the leader the game claims she is.



You seem to forget that Celene is an absolute monarch. By convention, she does not answer to ANYONE, let alone the Chantry, that is how it works. We see that in the stolen throne the Grand Cleric answered to Meghren and not the other way around by any stretch of mind. In fact it was the Grand Cleric seeking to please to Meghren so she could gain more favor with him.

[Sarah1281]

See, you're addressing arguments I haven't made. Celene could just as easily gain Ferelden through a non-marital mean. If it would be easier to do it by marrying Cailan and the gain is worth more than the cost then I DID say she go for it.



I rather assumed, from the way that you took my 'Celene shouldn't ****** off the Chantry unless it's worth it' and accused me of being too defensive and Harrowmont-ish that you didn't think all that much about diplomacy. I never said that you needed to please everyone. I said that you needed to not ****** people off unnecessarily. If Ferelden is so valuable to Celene and the best way to gain it is through a marriage alliance then it WOULD be necessary to ****** the Chantry off in that case. Please stop accusing me of thinking that leaders should try to please everybody. I don't.



I haven't forgotten how powerful Celene is. I didn't say that she should just mindlessly give in to them. I said she should consider whether it's worth it to alienate them BEFORE she acts and if it is then to go ahead. Can you forget the fact that you think I'm naive for two seconds to actually read what I'm saying?

[Costin_Razvan]

Touché

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Diplomacy does not equal to keeping everyone pleased. That's the same kind of idiotic rules Harrowmont follows, and I do not need to say how a complete fool Harrowmont is as a ruler.

That's not necessarily true. I point out to Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, the founder of the Umayyad Caliphate and officialy recognised as one of our 4 most cunning historical figures. And he was very known for keeping almost everyone happy and under his thumb and did create 20 years of uninterrupted internal peace after a brutal civil war.  And he was very tolerant and leniant towards opposition, because he was so damn good that he always found a way to make them allies eventually.
But that worked because he had cunning, a very cool head, a lot of charm and a very powerful military base. And a very nice way of making tribal leaders believe that his ideas are in fact their own that they came up with by themselves.

Anyways, I'll stop  my fanboyism of Muawiyah. A shame his son didn't have his leniancy or history might have been drastically altered. 

Sarah1281 wrote...
If that's true and she came to power at 17 that would make her 27 in-game and thus as Anora-range age...which Eamon and Cailan are already concerned with.

I was under the impression that Anora was in her 30s and was slightly older than Cailan. 
 

[Costin_Razvan]

Anyways, I'll stop my fanboyism of Muawiyah. A shame his son didn't have his leniancy or history might have been drastically altered.

I know your opinion of me will be drastically lowered, but I don't know much about him. Then again I could care less about the Dark Ages, and focus my study on Antiquity.

But he was a rather unique exception, wouldn't you agree?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 septembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If that's true and she came to power at 17 that would make her 27 in-game and thus as Anora-range age...which Eamon and Cailan are already concerned with.

I was under the impression that Anora was in her 30s and was slightly older than Cailan.

I thought it is said that Anora is approaching 30.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I know your opinion of me will be drastically lowered, but I don't know much about him. Then again I could care less about the Dark Ages, and focus my study on Antiquity.

But he was a rather unique exception, wouldn't you agree?

The "Dark Ages" for you, was the Golden Age for us. I dislike that terminology, it should really be phased out of existence. Europe only was in a dark age (except Spain), the rest of the world was fine. 
But no, I wouldn't dare having my opinion of you lowered. Afterall I know next to nothing about Eastern European history sadly.   

People like him were very rare yes. And it's remarkable how he is villified these days by some people (just notice how wrong his wikipedia entry is).  

[Costin_Razvan]

You ain't the Historian here though, I am So yeah, I am rather ashamed with myself .

I wouldn't call them Dark Ages either...Romania itself was born during them, so it wasn't that bad for us either.

As for him being slandered....well that's because wiki is mostly written by Americans...not by Arabs. Take for example how Americans view Vlad the Impaler compared to how Romanians view him. Here he is one of our greatest leaders and heroes because of what he did....for others he is a monster...

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for him being slandered....well that's because wiki is mostly written by Americans...not by Arabs.

I actually think it's written by Shias. They absolutely hate Muawiyah because he fought against their precious Ali (who happens to be my great great grand father, making me a sayyed / lord for them lol). Who was the better Muslim aside, I have no doubt that Muawiyah was the better leader.
 
Anyways, OT. And why am I rambling this much? Must be me being nervous about Witch Hunt lol

[Costin_Razvan]

Your family lines boggle my mind Knight...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Your family lines boggle my mind Knight...

There are percs for being a Hashemite, 'tis true.