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Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age


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#126
Irish Guerrilla

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phaonica wrote...

I fail as a fangirl. My boyfriend says he wasn't going to play the game anyway, so I just should tell him the story, since I spend so much time checking out these boards. Based on what I told him, I cannot convince him to spare Loghain. He say's he's *really* not going to play the game now if the antagonist fails that hard. I fail, fail, fail. Someone make me feel better, lol.


If you were my girlfriend I'd shame you for that spoiler!  I think you have to experience DA before you can even discuss the decisions to be made.  Even though I'm sure you did a great job telling the story, playing the game really captures you.  I often hear game reviewers claiming to be jealous of particular game vigins.  I'd have to say I feel this way about DA.  I'd love to experience Ferelden all over again.  This is why the DLC is so great.  Even though it's not as good as the core game, it's new and fresh. 

Regardless, I'm new here and it sounds like these forums are becoming less and less active.  I enjoy reading the various viewpoints.  Funny how I started this thread to say I believe Loghain to be the deepest character in the game and it immediately turned into a good vs. evil debate.  Sounds like that's a typical result based on the posts.  Posted Image

#127
Addai

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phaonica wrote...

I fail as a fangirl. My boyfriend says he wasn't going to play the game anyway, so I just should tell him the story, since I spend so much time checking out these boards. Based on what I told him, I cannot convince him to spare Loghain. He say's he's *really* not going to play the game now if the antagonist fails that hard. I fail, fail, fail. Someone make me feel better, lol.

Does it make you feel better that I constantly walk past and hear my husband torturing an unhardened Alistair with exile, execution and/or marriage to Anora?

#128
Sarah1281

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Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I fail as a fangirl. My boyfriend says he wasn't going to play the game anyway, so I just should tell him the story, since I spend so much time checking out these boards. Based on what I told him, I cannot convince him to spare Loghain. He say's he's *really* not going to play the game now if the antagonist fails that hard. I fail, fail, fail. Someone make me feel better, lol.

Does it make you feel better that I constantly walk past and hear my husband torturing an unhardened Alistair with exile, execution and/or marriage to Anora?

My brother killed Loghain because Alistair was funny. Posted Image

Then again, my brother is ten so he probably shouldn't have been playing DA in the first place. And he could never figure out how to talk to Sten and kept making me handle the conversations with party members so he wouldn't lose approval...

#129
Guest_jln.francisco_*

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I fail as a fangirl. My boyfriend says he wasn't going to play the game anyway, so I just should tell him the story, since I spend so much time checking out these boards. Based on what I told him, I cannot convince him to spare Loghain. He say's he's *really* not going to play the game now if the antagonist fails that hard. I fail, fail, fail. Someone make me feel better, lol.

Does it make you feel better that I constantly walk past and hear my husband torturing an unhardened Alistair with exile, execution and/or marriage to Anora?

My brother killed Loghain because Alistair was funny. Posted Image

Then again, my brother is ten so he probably shouldn't have been playing DA in the first place. And he could never figure out how to talk to Sten and kept making me handle the conversations with party members so he wouldn't lose approval...


My buddy has the emotional level of a ten year old and he had phenomenal success with keeping high approval. Mostly he just went with the 'nod politely and smile' type responses. Didn't work well with Morri though. Good thing she liked shiny things.

He killed Loghain because "Wow that ****er's got weird skin... You know he's evil."

#130
phaonica

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Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I fail as a fangirl. My boyfriend says he wasn't going to play the game anyway, so I just should tell him the story, since I spend so much time checking out these boards. Based on what I told him, I cannot convince him to spare Loghain. He say's he's *really* not going to play the game now if the antagonist fails that hard. I fail, fail, fail. Someone make me feel better, lol.

Does it make you feel better that I constantly walk past and hear my husband torturing an unhardened Alistair with exile, execution and/or marriage to Anora?


Yes! I mean, no.... Uh... lol Posted Image

That is to say, I feel your pain! While we were discussing whether he should play DAO or not I kept saying that I'd rather he didn't play it at all then for him to play it, think it was stupid, and think I was stupid for spending so much time with it. I *knew* I should have just kept my big mouth shut. lol

#131
Persephone

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Loghain always seems to have the same defenders and yet he gets new detractors every time you turn around (or start a thread).

It always seems to be:
You
Me
Costin
and KoP

who defend him dosent it?

Off the top of my head there's also CalJones and Phaonica. I really should stop as it's always the same argument with new people but, well, I can't help it. Some of the charges and arguments just strike me as too absurd to ignore. Posted Image


I'm here too. *Waves Loghain flag* :lol:

#132
KnightofPhoenix

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Costin_Razvan wrote...


He mentioned yesterday that the forum was getting annoying and boring so it's not surprising he's not been on much.


Two words for that: Starcraft 2.


Right on target.


phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The banhammer did its work, directly or indirectly.


I miss KoP.
Yeah, way to go banhammer. Posted Image


Awww, I miss you guys too.
Yea, it is also due to the banhammer. Maybe some overestimate how long we can talk about DA without staying off-topic and remaining interesting at the same time.

@ OP.

I certainly agree that Loghain ranks as one of the deepest characters in the game (the amounts of threads in his name and the amount of threads he invaded should be a testimony to this). Whether or not he is the deepest, I think, wil revolve more on personal opinion. For me personally, he is my second favorite (Morrigan first duh).
 

#133
phaonica

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Yay! KoP is still checking in on us once in a while

Starcraft 2, eh? Could all the threads have been killed at a worse time? 

Eh whatever.

random Loghain!

Posted Image

#134
Spartas Husky

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phaonica wrote...

Posted Image




To answer that statement...

We know.... like plundering our own people, selling slaves, commiting genocide.... we know thre is NOTHING you wont do to protect your homeland.... ironic though is hoemland the people or the land?... because in if is the people... you wont have much homeland left after you "save" it now will you? lol.

Unless of course Loghain you think is the land.... which.... still you'll burn it to defend it... or is it to prevent others from getting it... hmmm loghain my friend, do I sense selfishness, maybe spoil little kid rant of "dont take it, I'll break it if you touch it, so you can never touch it again"...no? is just me then.

lol<3

#135
phaonica

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Spartas Husky wrote...

To answer that statement...

(didn't *snip* anything we haven't heard before)


Posted Image

Yeah, it's not worth the harassment.

#136
Spartas Husky

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phaonica wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

To answer that statement...

(didn't *snip* anything we haven't heard before)


Posted Image

Yeah, it's not worth the harassment.


hehehehe, just messing with you.

Everyone is crazy..... such a bad bad world lol even on videogames:wub:

#137
Costin_Razvan

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PHAONICA, You promised us a mod, now where is it?!

You don't want to awaken the Dragon now do you?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 août 2010 - 01:27 .


#138
Dean_the_Young

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Spartas Husky wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Posted Image




To answer that statement...

We know.... like plundering our own people, selling slaves, commiting genocide.... we know thre is NOTHING you wont do to protect your homeland.... ironic though is hoemland the people or the land?... because in if is the people... you wont have much homeland left after you "save" it now will you? lol.

Unless of course Loghain you think is the land.... which.... still you'll burn it to defend it... or is it to prevent others from getting it... hmmm loghain my friend, do I sense selfishness, maybe spoil little kid rant of "dont take it, I'll break it if you touch it, so you can never touch it again"...no? is just me then.

lol<3

Who would ever be so foolish to spend money to make money? Clearly if you want more money, you must hoard it and never let it slip your fingers.

And doctors: what a silly profession of people! Giving immunosuppressents to some sick people: everyone knows that more immune system is always better. And that heretical talk of cutting out natural growing skin (these alleged 'tumors') in the name of better health: everyone knows that you can't harm the skin if you want to preserve it! Let's not even talk about when they cut away into bone and tissue in those 'surgeries.' 

Policemen are the worst of them all, really. Idiots, thinking they can protect the people by arresting people and then throwing them in jail.

And what about those idiots in the military, eh? Thinking they can justify running away like that to preserve forces. Everyone knows that if you want to defend land, you must never, ever, under any circumstance give up any ground to the enemy.

Smart people know that if you want to do something, there never any reason to do anything that might ever so slight go a grain against your position. Because that makes sense.

#139
phaonica

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

PHAONICA, You promised us a mod, now where is it?!

You don't want to awaken the Dragon now do you?


I know! I'm working on it! I promised! I swear I will deliver! I just don't have a release date. and when I have one i'll delay it.

I'm only human! Posted Image

I am working on it, really. But every time a Loghain thread pops up, something comes up that I'm like.. "damn... should I rewrite that whole branch of dialog?" Posted Image

And I don't think I have a Loghain pic that someone couldn't make a smart comment about, so I'm not going to try:
Posted Image

Edit: btw, Spartas Husky , I'm not picking on you personally, i'm just joking around. Posted Image

Modifié par phaonica, 19 août 2010 - 03:17 .


#140
Spartas Husky

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Posted Image




To answer that statement...

We know.... like plundering our own people, selling slaves, commiting genocide.... we know thre is NOTHING you wont do to protect your homeland.... ironic though is hoemland the people or the land?... because in if is the people... you wont have much homeland left after you "save" it now will you? lol.

Unless of course Loghain you think is the land.... which.... still you'll burn it to defend it... or is it to prevent others from getting it... hmmm loghain my friend, do I sense selfishness, maybe spoil little kid rant of "dont take it, I'll break it if you touch it, so you can never touch it again"...no? is just me then.

lol<3

Who would ever be so foolish to spend money to make money? Clearly if you want more money, you must hoard it and never let it slip your fingers.

And doctors: what a silly profession of people! Giving immunosuppressents to some sick people: everyone knows that more immune system is always better. And that heretical talk of cutting out natural growing skin (these alleged 'tumors') in the name of better health: everyone knows that you can't harm the skin if you want to preserve it! Let's not even talk about when they cut away into bone and tissue in those 'surgeries.' 

Policemen are the worst of them all, really. Idiots, thinking they can protect the people by arresting people and then throwing them in jail.

And what about those idiots in the military, eh? Thinking they can justify running away like that to preserve forces. Everyone knows that if you want to defend land, you must never, ever, under any circumstance give up any ground to the enemy.

Smart people know that if you want to do something, there never any reason to do anything that might ever so slight go a grain against your position. Because that makes sense.


Being sarcastic sometimes brings the point... but your just ruining it lol

Half of what you wrote made no sense, so I'll stick to what actually made some.

"Who would ever be so foolish to spend money to make money? Clearly if
you want more money, you must hoard it and never let it slip your
fingers."

True, to make money you gota spend money... but I never head it was a sound business practice, to make money for your country by selling the very people living within to foreign lands.

I mean Elves are slaves more or less... they do tasks nobody wants... and selling them, while dreadful, is financially sound...... but that is if they are being traded within the country.... otherwise is.... a financial loss.

Or in perspective... I dont think is sounds business practice to sell the land you were going to build your casino to get the capital to build the casino itself.

"And doctors: what a silly profession of people! Giving
immunosuppressents to some sick people: everyone knows that more immune
system is always better. And that heretical talk of cutting out natural
growing skin (these alleged 'tumors') in the name of better
health: everyone knows that you can't harm the skin if you want to
preserve it! Let's not even talk about when they cut away into bone and
tissue in those 'surgeries.'  "

So cut out bad tumors? I think that is what it was about... and the tumor would be? The king? who suggested waiting for reinforcements? but Loghain didn't want to?.... taken though that the king didn't want to wait that much for reinforcements either.

Still.... that..... "metaphor" was a bit off... hard to tell.

usually tumors, give nothing in return... not a lot good came out of cutting the king/tumor did it?... still neevr knew he was harmful to begin with.

"Policemen are the worst of them all, really. Idiots, thinking they can
protect the people by arresting people and then throwing them in jail."

yeah, criminals do clean toilets, attend to your every need, feed your kids, clean the house, teach children, do laundry attend construction jobs... they are really helpful that way.

ummm but to be fair... what is that one exactly is that one about "protecting" or "making money" I dont get it....
if is about "protecting" I dont find the correlation... putting who away?

And if is making money.... actually is more expensive to keep prisoners than to let them roam..... that is one case in which you spend money to... gain popular support. Prison systems are financial losses on any budget.


Although selling idle prison populations... is a nice way to get money though.


"And what about those idiots in the military, eh? Thinking they can
justify running away like that to preserve forces. Everyone knows that
if you want to defend land, you must never, ever, under any circumstance
give up any ground to the enemy."

Military doctrine is to preserve military strength, not really what was done.

Or to inflict maximum casualties with current forces even if defeat is certain.
If in a bottleneck where numbers had no advantage, with high ground, well supplied, and awaiting reinforcements was not a prime locations to win, or inflict maximum casualties... then loghain really doesn't deserve to be called a strategist...

Giving up, a prime location, high ground, fortified positon, well supplied routes, and fight a larger number of enemies on open ground, with a country on the edge of rebellion... on top of which hoping to kill one of its most influencial political, and military leaders (redcliff) to be a very sound strategic desicion.


"Smart people know that if you want to do something, there never any
reason to do anything that might ever so slight go a grain against your
position. Because that makes sense"

...what?

Loghain is a rich characters, before very smart... but in DA origins, he is anything but smart, he became paranoid with "protecting" the land, while actively burning it so noone else can have it... if that is not the definition of spoil/crazy despot I dont know what is.






phaonica wrote...

Edit: btw, Spartas Husky , I'm not picking on you personally, i'm just joking around. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/kissing.png


I know:P me too

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 19 août 2010 - 04:06 .


#141
KnightofPhoenix

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phaonica wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

PHAONICA, You promised us a mod, now where is it?!

You don't want to awaken the Dragon now do you?


I know! I'm working on it! I promised! I swear I will deliver! I just don't have a release date. and when I have one i'll delay it.

I'm only human! Posted Image


You also promised to make a KoP companion mod Posted ImagePosted Image

#142
Sarah1281

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

PHAONICA, You promised us a mod, now where is it?!

You don't want to awaken the Dragon now do you?


I know! I'm working on it! I promised! I swear I will deliver! I just don't have a release date. and when I have one i'll delay it.

I'm only human! Posted Image


You also promised to make a KoP companion mod Posted ImagePosted Image

Is it surprising that's taking awhile? She has to find a way to convince you not to take over the group or reacting badly when the poor Warden attempts to hit on Morrigan (he fails, of course, but I'm sure the attempt isn't appreciated).

#143
CalJones

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Is he romanceable? Posted Image

#144
phaonica

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You also promised to make a KoP companion mod Posted ImagePosted Image


I don't remember *promising* that one. Posted Image

I'd have to rewrite the whole game. Posted Image

#145
Dean_the_Young

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Spartas Husky wrote...

Being sarcastic sometimes brings the point... but your just ruining it lol

Half of what you wrote made no sense, so I'll stick to what actually made some.

"Who would ever be so foolish to spend money to make money? Clearly if
you want more money, you must hoard it and never let it slip your
fingers."

True, to make money you gota spend money... but I never head it was a sound business practice, to make money for your country by selling the very people living within to foreign lands.

Then you're ignorant in history and economics, ancient near and contemporary. Study up.

...

Or in perspective... I dont think is sounds business practice to sell
the land you were going to build your casino to get the capital to build
the casino itself.

You would, however, sell unperforming swamp land in order to raise capital to build casino in the good land next door.

"And doctors: what a silly profession of people! Giving
immunosuppressents to some sick people: everyone knows that more immune
system is always better. And that heretical talk of cutting out natural
growing skin (these alleged 'tumors') in the name of better
health: everyone knows that you can't harm the skin if you want to
preserve it! Let's not even talk about when they cut away into bone and
tissue in those 'surgeries.'  "

So cut out bad tumors? I think that is what it was about... and the tumor would be? The king? who suggested waiting for reinforcements? but Loghain didn't want to?.... taken though that the king didn't want to wait that much for reinforcements either.

Still.... that..... "metaphor" was a bit off... hard to tell.

usually tumors, give nothing in return... not a lot good came out of cutting the king/tumor did it?... still neevr knew he was harmful to begin with.

The metaphor, all of them, weren't direct anologies. They were demonstrations of why progress is not univeralisms and that seeming counterintuitive actions (such as cutting the skin to save it) are quite common and well grounded.

If there's a best metaphor in this example, and it wasn't made with the intent, it would be the Alienage. It doesn't add significantly to the city's ability to fight, is judged as undefendable in the first place. Yet, as ugly and impoverished as it is, it is still part of the city, just as a tumor is part of the skin. All the Alienage can offer is bodies, which is not what is needed most, just as a tumor offers plenty of flesh, but that isn't what's needed either.


"Policemen are the worst of them all, really. Idiots, thinking they can
protect the people by arresting people and then throwing them in jail."

yeah, criminals do clean toilets, attend to your every need, feed your kids, clean the house, teach children, do laundry attend construction jobs... they are really helpful that way.

ummm but to be fair... what is that one exactly is that one about "protecting" or "making money" I dont get it....
if is about "protecting" I dont find the correlation... putting who away?

And if is making money.... actually is more expensive to keep prisoners than to let them roam..... that is one case in which you spend money to... gain popular support. Prison systems are financial losses on any budget.

You need to work on your metaphor comprehension as well.

The stated goal of the police is to protect and serve 'the people' and put away criminals. Criminals, however, are part of the people as well: police men do not protect and serve the criminals. By your previous totalitarian logic, that is counterintuitive: criminals are the people as well. With context, it is blatantly obvious: criminals are a distinctly smaller and separate part of the people.


"And what about those idiots in the military, eh? Thinking they can
justify running away like that to preserve forces. Everyone knows that
if you want to defend land, you must never, ever, under any circumstance
give up any ground to the enemy."

Military doctrine is to preserve military strength, not really what was done.

That's because military doctrine understands totalisms are foolish. People who insist on defending at all costs soon end up not being able to defend at all, and suffer worse than if they had withdrawn in the first place.

Or to inflict maximum casualties with current forces even if defeat is certain.
If in a bottleneck where numbers had no advantage, with high ground, well supplied, and awaiting reinforcements was not a prime locations to win, or inflict maximum casualties... then loghain really doesn't deserve to be called a strategist...

If. Alas, Loghain wasn't calling the shots in the first place, and had to work within Cailan's specifications. And Cailan was not worth calling a strategist.

Giving up, a prime location, high ground, fortified positon, well supplied routes, and fight a larger number of enemies on open ground, with a country on the edge of rebellion... on top of which hoping to kill one of its most influencial political, and military leaders (redcliff) to be a very sound strategic desicion.

Ostagar doesn't have well supplied routes. It's an outpost in the boonies. It's as easy to cut off as anything can be. It might make a good place to stage an attack, but it's far too remote to justify holding at all costs: holding it doesn't keep the darkspawn from taking the valleys around it.

#146
Habelo

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Yes he is such an unselfish brilliant character that all men could look up to (the voice actor also adds to his grand aura). It is also deep that they have set the tragic of a leader who wants nothing more then to protect his people, but he is no true leader of leaders and resorts to evil/sinister deals in his insecurity. In which backfires and shows us that he is not capable of the throne.

Truly a real and great carachter by bioware.

Modifié par Habelo, 19 août 2010 - 11:14 .


#147
Giggles_Manically

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Habelo wrote...

Yes he is such an unselfish brilliant character that all men could look up to (the voice actor also adds to his grand aura). It is also deep that they have set the tragic of a leader who wants nothing more then to protect his people, but he is no true leader of leaders and resorts to evil/sinister deals in his insecurity. In which backfires and shows us that he is not capable of the throne.

Truly a real and great carachter by bioware.


ohhhh the Sarcasm is strong with this one. Posted Image

#148
KnightofPhoenix

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phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You also promised to make a KoP companion mod Posted ImagePosted Image


I don't remember *promising* that one. Posted Image

I'd have to rewrite the whole game. Posted Image


But surely I am worth it Posted Image

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Is it surprising that's taking awhile? She has to find a way to convince you not to take over the group or reacting badly when the poor Warden attempts to hit on Morrigan (he fails, of course, but I'm sure the attempt isn't appreciated).


Hmmm, there are some difficulties for sure. Morrigan will be locked as a romance option and will most of the time be unavailable for dialogue because she would be...busy. So will KoP btw.
But still, it would be a memorable experience.

CalJones wrote...

Is he romanceable? Posted Image


Naturally Posted Image

#149
Sarah1281

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But...but how is KoP supposed to be romanceable when he's already romancing Morrigan and she doesn't share?

#150
KnightofPhoenix

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Sarah1281 wrote...

But...but how is KoP supposed to be romanceable when he's already romancing Morrigan and she doesn't share?


Did you have to spoil it?
KoP will be a romance trap that will lead to a game over if pursued. Of course, I suspect many would do it regardless Posted Image