12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Of course, you're also presupposing [...] that the only reason he wants to kill Loghain is personal.

The fact that he leaves proves that deep down, it's only personal. It cannot be argued it was done for "justice" / efficiency / honor of the Wardens, if what he ends up doing is counter to those ideals.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Of course, you're also presupposing [...] that the only reason he wants to kill Loghain is personal.

The fact that he leaves proves that deep down, it's only personal. It cannot be argued it was done for "justice" / efficiency / honor of the Wardens, if what he ends up doing is counter to those ideals.

Yes. I know it would have been HELL for him to stay in the order once Loghain has taken his Joining. BUT: "Have fun stopping the Blight. Or whatever......." Once Alistair said that, I was cringing and REALLY angry. Because I DO like him a lot. And I want to strangle Eamon for neglecting him only to use him for his agenda later.... But I cannot do as he asks there. I wish there was a dialogue before the Landsmeet where you can discuss possible outcomes with him. I also think that it's kinda odd that nobody in the party mentions Alistair leaving/dying/being banished....

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

By burying, I meant shoving some snow on him. But yes, you're right, too much effort wasted on him regardless.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

By burying, I meant shoving some snow on him. But yes, you're right, too much effort wasted on him regardless.

Why we cant just kick him over the side I dont know.

Just knock out the stand and over it goes.

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

By burying, I meant shoving some snow on him. But yes, you're right, too much effort wasted on him regardless.

Why we cant just kick him over the side I dont know.

Just knock out the stand and over it goes.

Ouch. That is pretty brutal.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Of course, you're also presupposing [...] that the only reason he wants to kill Loghain is personal.

The fact that he leaves proves that deep down, it's only personal. It cannot be argued it was done for "justice" / efficiency / honor of the Wardens, if what he ends up doing is counter to those ideals.

It can't?  I beg to differ, but am not going to embark on round #6394295.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Of course, you're also presupposing [...] that the only reason he wants to kill Loghain is personal.

The fact that he leaves proves that deep down, it's only personal. It cannot be argued it was done for "justice" / efficiency / honor of the Wardens, if what he ends up doing is counter to those ideals.

It can't?  I beg to differ, but am not going to embark on round #6394295.

Butchering a man in front of his daughter will never be justice to me. That he demands this, even of a Cousland, really makes me angry. All the Wardens had it tough. But while he keeps crying over Duncan, he pays little to no attention to the Warden's grief. (Cousland massacre, Tamlen, CE fiance etc.) 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Of course, you're also presupposing [...] that the only reason he wants to kill Loghain is personal.

The fact that he leaves proves that deep down, it's only personal. It cannot be argued it was done for "justice" / efficiency / honor of the Wardens, if what he ends up doing is counter to those ideals.

It can't?  I beg to differ, but am not going to embark on round #6394295.

Can't in a reasonable and coherent fashion.
All claims of justice are countered when you are willing to abandon your people to die. All claims of respecting Ferelden and its laws are countered when you want to abandon it. 
All claims of efficiency are countered if you are quitting on what you want to be efficient in (the efficient thing would have been him staying and watching our backs). 
All claims of Warden honor are countered when you are turning away from the Blight (fully countered when hardened Alistair flat out says he is no longer a Warden). 

It is possible that he sought self preservation out of fear of backstabbing (which doesn't have to work in his favor, he can get himself killed), but that's a personal reason. 
The other more likely reason is revenge. Pure and simple. That too is personal.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:28 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Of course, you're also presupposing [...] that the only reason he wants to kill Loghain is personal.

The fact that he leaves proves that deep down, it's only personal. It cannot be argued it was done for "justice" / efficiency / honor of the Wardens, if what he ends up doing is counter to those ideals.

It can't?  I beg to differ, but am not going to embark on round #6394295.

Can't in a reasonable and coherent fashion.
All claims of justice are countered when you are willing to abandon your people to die. All claims of respecting Ferelden and its laws are countered when you want to abandon it. 
All claims of efficiency are countered if you are quitting on what you want to be efficient in (the efficient thing would have been him staying and watching our backs). 
All claims of Warden honor are countered when you are turning away from the Blight (fully countered when hardened Alistair flat out says he is no longer a Warden). 

It is possible that he sought self preservation out of fear of backstabbing (which doesn't have to work in his favor, he can get himself killed), but that's a personal reason. 
The other more likely reason is revenge. Pure and simple. That too is personal.

Is it okay to say:
Youve just been KopED!

[Giggles_Manically]

I would think Alistair's leaving the wardens could be understandable if he were to help Eamon or the Templars in the fight. Cause honestly that would be a bitter pill to swallow for him seeing someone he hates join with him.



However his storming off and leaving everything behind I cant agree with.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

By burying, I meant shoving some snow on him. But yes, you're right, too much effort wasted on him regardless.

(Husband posting)

Well... your assuming and the game assumes that Anora would not find out anything about this.   And if she would, she wouldn't care.   (She or Erlina could hear gossip from your companions for instance).


That is the one plot hole in all those actions.   From what I can tell she did care for him, foolish though he was.   And her invisible approval reaction meter could get dinged a bit.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
(Husband posting)

Well... your assuming and the game assumes that Anora would not find out anything about this.   And if she would, she wouldn't care.   (She or Erlina could here gossip from your companions for instance).


That is the one plot hole in all those actions.   From what I can tell she did care for him, foolish though he was.

If she does find out, then I'll gladly show her what Cailan wanted to do with her.

[Addai]

yeah lol kind of forget about that ha


(husband)


edit/   Although isn't there some in game thing that suggest that Cailan was angry at Eamon for suggesting it.   The Celene marriage thing is just a interpretation of some of the evidence based on some good cicumstantial evidence.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Persephone wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

By burying, I meant shoving some snow on him. But yes, you're right, too much effort wasted on him regardless.

Why we cant just kick him over the side I dont know.

Just knock out the stand and over it goes.

Ouch. That is pretty brutal.

I dont get why people are so concerned over the treatment of bodies really.

Once you die its just a bunch of chemicals, minerals, water, and proteins. Sitting there.
It has no meaning once you die. I have pretty much every organ on my organ donation card checked off right now anyway. I mean, why do I need my guts when all they are going to do is become worm food?

I really dont understand "Respect for the Corpse". Respect for the person yes, but what do they care? They're dead.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
(Husband posting)

Well... your assuming and the game assumes that Anora would not find out anything about this.   And if she would, she wouldn't care.   (She or Erlina could here gossip from your companions for instance).


That is the one plot hole in all those actions.   From what I can tell she did care for him, foolish though he was.

If she does find out, then I'll gladly show her what Cailan wanted to do with her.

(husband) Come to think of it, in game when I let the wolves eat him I remember having the same thought.   I did it however to avoid or minimizing approval from any companions.   I got dinged a bit by Leliana, but had left over presents to get it back up to 100.   But I did come out ahead.  I think I earned a 2 more points with Loghain then I lost with Leliana.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Is it okay to say:
Youve just been KopED!

Yes, I already knew he believed there is only one way to view the topic.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Would imprisoning Loghain be a better alternative than killing him?





On a side note, I kinda wanted to tell Alistair that Duncan was killed by darkspawn, not Loghain

[Addai]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Would imprisoning Loghain be a better alternative than killing him?

(husband)


We've discussed that option long ago in past threads.   As Xanderphein I believe stated a few times, and I agree, that this forced choice was necessary for the plot.    If Loghain had been allowed to live and his future decided later it would have very likely prompted a Civil war between folks like Anora and old guard types, vs. Allistair and Eamon.

Since the country had already been through one Civil War plus the Blight, this was not a good idea.


Besides which, it made the game writing, testing and execution of epilogues much much easier.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Would imprisoning Loghain be a better alternative than killing him?

(husband)


We've discussed that option long ago in past threads.   As Xanderphein I believe stated a few times, and I agree, that this forced choice was necessary for the plot.    If Loghain had been allowed to live and his future decided later it would have very likely prompted a Civil war between folks like Anora and old guard types, vs. Allistair and Eamon.

Since the country had already been through one Civil War plus the Blight, this was not a good idea.


Besides which, it made the game writing and execution of epilogues much much easier.

Easier? The Epilogue is bugged & glitched like nothing else in the game. (Except Alistair thinking he is king when he isn't.)

[MKDAWUSS]

Addai67 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Would imprisoning Loghain be a better alternative than killing him?

(husband)


We've discussed that option long ago in past threads.   As Xanderphein I believe stated a few times, and I agree, that this forced choice was necessary for the plot.    If Loghain had been allowed to live and his future decided later it would have very likely prompted a Civil war between folks like Anora and old guard types, vs. Allistair and Eamon.

Since the country had already been through one Civil War plus the Blight, this was not a good idea.


Besides which, it made the game writing, testing and execution of epilogues much much easier.

How so? Either way he would be removed from the picture. Also, from the looks of it, there might be another fight over the throne coming up considering neither Alistair or Anora are bound to have children when they (or one of them) take the throne.

And if he's imprisoned, public perception of him would still have taken a major hit - he wouldn't be coming out a hero in the end.

Also, doesn't the hubby need his own account?

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To be fair, he makes the effort of studying governance and becomes more involved and willing, which I think is essential for being a good king (not the only important thing of course). He does become more self-centered than he already was (except he has "more spine" to act on that now), but that *can* make him more efficient as king (could also make him worse, seeing how he is not the most rational person around). Even though yes, his threesome thing is meeh, I share Morrigan's opinion on the whole concept.

And Alistair demands the crown to kill Loghain even as unhardened. Stupid thing to do either way.

I'll grant you that hardened Alistair is better for the kingdom than unhardened Alistair, but only barely. I guess it all comes down to what one wants in a leader, and what type of leader one thinks is best for Ferelden. I cannot draw what I think are kingly, leadership qualities from Alistair, not even via hardening. I wanted him to be strong enough not only to stand up for himself, but also to stand strong for Ferelden.

The whole hardening experience seems to be more about making headway towards what is better for Alistair personally, and not what is better for him as the leader of Ferelden. The Landsmeet accepts him as a king practically only for his bloodline, yet he'll still take a queen who cannot give him an heir. In other games, he'll easily accept a mistress, even though he'd previously been arguing to maintain the honor of whomever he would be making his queen. The way I see it, unhardened, he doesn't have the 'spine' to uphold his duty, and hardened he's too self-centered to uphold it (to a standard that I consider to be 'good for Ferelden').

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I found leaving his corpse to be forgotten to be the most satisfactory personally. If there was an option to bury him, I might have done it. But I would not waste my time to conduct a ceremony for him.

Would burying him take less time than just lighting him on fire? It seems like there would be more effort involved regardless.

By burying, I meant shoving some snow on him. But yes, you're right, too much effort wasted on him regardless.

I didn't think Fereldens practiced burial.

Cailan might have been too glory-seeking for his own good, but I'd still give him a proper funeral. I think he was wrong, but I don't think he was a bad person.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

The whole hardening experience seems to be more about making headway towards what is better for Alistair personally, and not what is better for him as the leader of Ferelden. The Landsmeet accepts him as a king practically only for his bloodline, yet he'll still take a queen who cannot give him an heir. In other games, he'll easily accept a mistress, even though he'd previously been arguing to maintain the honor of whomever he would be making his queen. The way I see it, unhardened, he doesn't have the 'spine' to uphold his duty, and hardened he's too self-centered to uphold it (to a standard that I consider to be 'good for Ferelden').

You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?  LOL  Don't make me break out my Sergeant Kylon shot.  Except by the sounds, what you're really saying is that no human being should be named to the throne.

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...


You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?

Not everyone hates her.