12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...



You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?

What does how Anora does as Queen have to do with whether or not Alistair shows himself to be a good King? I know you have to pick at least one of them but that doesn't mean that either of them are required to be good or bad at ruling.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Can't in a reasonable and coherent fashion.
All claims of justice are countered when you are willing to abandon your people to die. 

I feel like you are confusing justice and duty.  Alistair's desertion reflects his devotion to justice even above his sense of duty.  I think it is pretty clear that Alistair is disgusted by the idea of Loghain 'getting away' with all of his crimes.  If Alistair was truly so consumed by revenge then why would he have just walked away after your decision?  Why wouldn't he have taken 'justice' into his own hands and tried to finish Loghain himself?  He feels betrayed.  He's in shock.  He's realizing for the first time that he doesn't live in an ideal world where everyone is punished for their actions appropriately.  He has become disillusioned and the only thing he wants to do is reject this newfound understanding and escape.  

His reaction at the Landsmeet is immature.  It isn't very pragmatic.  It is incredibly personal.  I'm not sure that I can say with absolute certainty that Alistair wouldn't have had an extreme reaction had Loghain been spared and Duncan been alive (but elsewhere for some reason).  What I'm saying is, Loghain's fate should not be decided by Alistair, he's far too biased.  But that doesn't make his argument wrong.  His intimacy to the situation doesn't make Loghain any less deserving of justice.  But that is something the player needs to determine for themselves. If the goal is justice, hopefully the player can put Alistair's sentimentality and Loghain's usefulness aside and deliver a decision based on the facts.   

I may have jumped in the middle of an argument far more complex than the last couple of posts, if so I apologize.  I just felt the need to clear up what I feel Addai67 was trying to say in regards to justice. 

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?

Not everyone hates her.

I was pointing to irony, such as writing about Alistair being self-centered.  That's laughable when comparing him to Anora.  Mainly, my point was that they both have faults and strengths, and very human ones.

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...
I was pointing to irony, such as writing about Alistair being self-centered.  That's laughable when comparing him to Anora.  Mainly, my point was that they both have faults and strengths, and very human ones.

Fair enough--thanks for clarifying.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?  LOL  Don't make me break out my Sergeant Kylon shot. 

Anora certainly has her moments that have her seeming to put her own interests ahead of Ferelden's. The main problems I have with her are that when she is removed as queen, she refuses to swear fealty to the new ruler, and that if she is made solo queen she refuses to remarry and the heir situation continues to be a problem. So in that respect, she's on equal footing with Alistair.

But that's part of the problem, that the best you can do with Alistair is make him as self-centered as Anora. Both of them can and do put their own interests above Ferelden's when it comes to certain major issues. I was disappointed that the hardening process (or rather the entire adventure) doesn't inspire Alistair to be better than that. 

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?

Not everyone hates her.

I was pointing to irony, such as writing about Alistair being self-centered.  That's laughable when comparing him to Anora.  Mainly, my point was that they both have faults and strengths, and very human ones.

Is she THAT self-centered? She's willing to marry Alistair, Cailan's brother, for Ferelden's sake. She is a much better ruler. And well, I dig strong women who know how to play the game.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Is she THAT self-centered? She's willing to marry Alistair, Cailan's brother, for Ferelden's sake. She is a much better ruler. And well, I dig strong women who know how to play the game.

And Alistair is willing to marry her, so...  As for who's better, that's a matter of opinion.

Strong women are fine, though no better than strong men.  And in this instance I just prefer a good man take the throne.  Like Fiona says of Maric, Ferelden is lucky to have one.  Anora might have been ok if she had not grown up with such a sense of entitlement.  That's what drives her partcular brand of selfishness IMO- she simply can't picture anyone on the throne but her.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?  LOL  Don't make me break out my Sergeant Kylon shot. 

What happened to the Sgt. Kylon for King campaign? I thought you were gonna bring in some pics to this thread too... 

Kylon for King!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Is she THAT self-centered? She's willing to marry Alistair, Cailan's brother, for Ferelden's sake. She is a much better ruler. And well, I dig strong women who know how to play the game.

And Alistair is willing to marry her, so...  As for who's better, that's a matter of opinion.

Strong women are fine, though no better than strong men.  And in this instance I just prefer a good man take the throne.  Like Fiona says of Maric, Ferelden is lucky to have one.  Anora might have been ok if she had not grown up with such a sense of entitlement.  That's what drives her partcular brand of selfishness IMO- she simply can't picture anyone on the throne but her.

And why should she? Had somebody asked Elizabeth I. "Well, Your Majesty, Mary Queen Of Scots kinda has a claim by blood....and she's a good gal and pretty and....", do you think she'd have said "Now that you mention it, SURE. I'll just move to France and live in a chateau." ?

[Costin_Razvan]

and that if she is made solo queen she refuses to remarry and the heir situation continues to be a problem. So in that respect, she's on equal footing with Alistair.

She doesn't need to marry and have a child to be able to have an heir to the throne.

She can name a person who will take over once she dies, and that person will have the highest claim to the throne once she dies and the Landsmeet to decide the matter rolls over. The situation in Fereldan is that even if she had a child, then that child might not claim the crown after she dies. Would have happened with Cailan, who was the son of the Rebel Prince, if not for Bryce's refusal.

 Anora might have been ok if she had not grown up with such a sense of entitlement

She wants the throne because she worked her ass in Cailan's shadow as an administrator. A fact that even Eamon admits. Maybe you could give a **** about someone putting hard work that is overshadowed by a fool king who couldn't care less about it, but I do.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I honestly dont get the Calian love at all.

When I first met him, I thought "Ok he seems nice, and talks real good"

Then I thought "Wait, bore you with strategies" which left me a little freaked out.

Then Duncan said, "He thinks our legend alone makes us invunerable" which made things worse.



However what really upset me was listening to him in the War Meeting. He honestly was blowing off Loghain and Duncan. blathering on about GLORY! in the middle of a war, and acting like a child. You dont ignore youre most senior men in a time like that. Also while a king is a symbol you dont put the symnol on the front line. Honestly during the whole war meeting this was my face:





Calian is a terrible leader, he is so focused glory that he misses reality.

[DragonRacer13]

But... but... it was going to be GLORIOUS!



(Your pictures crack me up...  )

[Sarah1281]

I really love this line Loghain has about Cailan's death:

"By all means, tell me again how I murdered Cailan. I find the topic inexhaustibly fascinating. There is no possibility, of course, that Cailan's poor judgment in leading the charge against my advice caused his death. Because he fell in battle, his part in the massacre at Ostagar must be excused, and because I survived, all responsibility must fall to me."

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I really love this line Loghain has about Cailan's death:

"By all means, tell me again how I murdered Cailan. I find the topic inexhaustibly fascinating. There is no possibility, of course, that Cailan's poor judgment in leading the charge against my advice caused his death. Because he fell in battle, his part in the massacre at Ostagar must be excused, and because I survived, all responsibility must fall to me."

(Husband)

Actually he's got another one at Ostagar that gave me a chuckle.   Something about how Cailan pretty much "Threw himself on the Darkspawn swords".

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
Anora might have been ok if she had not grown up with such a sense of entitlement.  That's what drives her partcular brand of selfishness IMO- she simply can't picture anyone on the throne but her.

She "grew up" with a sense of entitlement because she was entitled. It's not like a kid getting a BMW as his first car. She was betrothed to Cailan almost as soon as he was born. She was raised to be Cailan's wife and raised to be queen. She's not entitled in the unjust sense of the word.

Modifié par Monica21, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I really love this line Loghain has about Cailan's death:

"By all means, tell me again how I murdered Cailan. I find the topic inexhaustibly fascinating. There is no possibility, of course, that Cailan's poor judgment in leading the charge against my advice caused his death. Because he fell in battle, his part in the massacre at Ostagar must be excused, and because I survived, all responsibility must fall to me."

Well, it's like Sten says, "your kith stood their ground while others fled, no one can do more."

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

(Husband)

Actually he's got another one at Ostagar that gave me a chuckle.   Something about how Cailan pretty much "Threw himself on the Darkspawn swords".

(ignore all the blood, heh)

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Anora might have been ok if she had not grown up with such a sense of entitlement.  That's what drives her partcular brand of selfishness IMO- she simply can't picture anyone on the throne but her.

She "grew up" with a sense of entitlement because she was entitled. It's not like a kid getting a BMW as his first car. She was betrothed to Cailan almost as soon as he was born. She was raised to be Cailan's wife and raised to be queen. She's not entitled in the unjust sense of the word.

And Alistair is Maric's true son and thus has a claim to the throne by blood.  In that sense he is no less entitled than she is, but doesn't consider the throne to be his ambition.  Anora might have come by the atittude naturally, but it doesn't make it any more attractive as a character trait.

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You do recall that your only other choice is Anora, correct?  LOL  Don't make me break out my Sergeant Kylon shot. 

What happened to the Sgt. Kylon for King campaign? I thought you were gonna bring in some pics to this thread too... 

Kylon for King!

Kylon the Burger King, lol. He certainly had a lot more sense than many of the other npcs, that's for sure.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
And Alistair is Maric's true son and thus has a claim to the throne by blood.  In that sense he is no less entitled than she is, but doesn't consider the throne to be his ambition.  Anora might have come by the atittude naturally, but it doesn't make it any more attractive as a character trait.

No, he doesn't. In fact, he whines about the throne every time you talk about it. He doesn't even think about it as a sense of duty. He mentions that the only reason he'd take it is to keep it from Anora and Loghain. I wouldn't consider someone who wants the throne just so someone else won't have it to be an attractive character trait either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
I feel like you are confusing justice and duty.  Alistair's desertion reflects his devotion to justice even above his sense of duty.  

That is only  the case if he really believes in "do justice even should the whole world perish" mentality that I find....extremily unappealing.

Justice for me is instrumental. When you don't care if your people live or die because of one man, then you are not being just nor are you qualified to talk about justice. You are being vengeful.
There is no justice in abandonning thousands who had nothing to do with what Loghain did.  

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jvee wrote...
I feel like you are confusing justice and duty.  Alistair's desertion reflects his devotion to justice even above his sense of duty.  

That is only  the case if he really believes in "do justice even should the whole world perish" mentality that I find....extremily unappealing.

Justice for me is instrumental. When you don't care if your people live or die because of one man, then you are not being just nor are you qualified to talk about justice. You are being vengeful.
There is no justice in abandonning thousands who had nothing to do with what Loghain did.  

In Awakening you see a literal spirit of justice be convinced to put off justice till after the crisis is done.
However Alistair leaves everything behind and cant be convinced to stay in most cases.

When its easier to convince a being of Justice itself, than convince a person about an issue than that is just sad.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
In Awakening you see a literal spirit of justice be convinced to put off justice till after the crisis is done.
However Alistair leaves everything behind and cant be convinced to stay in most cases.

When its easier to convince a being of Justice itself, than convince a person about an issue than that is just sad.

Indeed, unless people really want to argue that Alistair's devotion to justice surpasses that of a spirit built around the idea.

It's clearly personal. He may have disgusied it with talk of justice and fear of backstabbing. all of which can be valid mind you. But he blows his own argument apart when he deserts.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
In Awakening you see a literal spirit of justice be convinced to put off justice till after the crisis is done.
However Alistair leaves everything behind and cant be convinced to stay in most cases.

When its easier to convince a being of Justice itself, than convince a person about an issue than that is just sad.

Indeed, unless people really want to argue that Alistair's devotion to justice surpasses that of a spirit built around the idea.

It's clearly personal. He may have disgusied it with talk of justice and fear of backstabbing. all of which can be valid mind you. But he blows his own argument apart when he deserts.

Justice is all well and good.

But when it comes to a choice between justice vs um the fate of a nation, my choice will always be to help the most people.
I like this quote from an David Eddings book I once read in this situation:
"Oh wont that be nice, you can wade hip deep through blood, but you can admire your nice clean soul! Wont that be nice!"

[Wulfram]

Giggles_Manically wrote...


However what really upset me was listening to him in the War Meeting. He honestly was blowing off Loghain and Duncan. blathering on about GLORY! in the middle of a war, and acting like a child. You dont ignore youre most senior men in a time like that. Also while a king is a symbol you dont put the symnol on the front line. Honestly during the whole war meeting this was my face:
.

Meh.  Loghain babbles incoherently in that meeting.  I applaud Cailan's tolerance.