12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

jpdipity wrote...

CalJones wrote...


One thing you can say about Loghain is that he doesn't turn away from anything, even if it means his death. He has many failings, but he is prepared to see things through to the end.

He doesn't turn away from anything.  Wait, except for the battle at Ostagar and, oh yeah, his King...

A battle many, including said moronic king, thought couldn't be won. Generals abandon parts of their armies all the time if strategy demands it. Remember The Battle Of West Hill in "The Stolen Throne"? 

[Sarah1281]

Poisoning Eamon rather undercuts the idea that it all took Loghain by surprise and he was just going with the flow at and after Ostagar. It also is, in itself, an executable offense.

How does that make it clear that Loghain planned Ostagar? All that makes it clear is that Loghain wanted Cailan cut off from his allies and we know that he was planning on confronting Cailan post-Ostagar and the details on that confrontation are unknown.

[jpdipity]

phaonica wrote...

Fair enough. I was wondering to what extent you thought Loghain was a threat, and if you thought Alistair and/or Anora would similarly need to be executed to secure the crown for for the other. If your Warden would not trust Loghain to not continue to seek the crown, but would trust Alistair not to do it (if Anora took the crown), then fair enough.

I believe that Alistair on the throne by himself or with a FemNoble will need to execute Anora.  She, like Loghain, poses a threat.  Personnally, I think Anora is a bigger threat than Loghain because she refuses to stand down and believe that Alistair is weak.  I think that without a doubt she would attempt to overthrow Alistair if given the chance.

Anora ruling solely should execute Alistair likewise.  My PC has never placed Anora on the throne by herself though.  Typically, it is a Anora/Alistair rule.  My PC Wardens don't trust her completely - she goes back and forth so many times during the brief period we know her.  I just have never found a reason for my PC Warden to trust her not to turn on the Warden again.  Alistair is placed beside her to secure my Warden's safety and position.

My one playthrough as a male noble who married Anora trusted Alistair.  They were close friends and my PC did not feel that Alistair would want the throne and as an illegitimate, not-very-well-known son of Maric, he would not have the support to overthrow the throne either.  Bascially, Alistair was not a threat in this case.  Now, if I ever play this scenario with a hardened Alistair who is not friends with the PC - I may decide differently, but is executing Alistair an option if Loghain is killed?

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The other bit. I won't take anyone talking about justice seriously when he considers a whole nation not worth defending, because his ideals have been shattered.

You say justice is not duty. Eh, I could claim to be just all I want, but would anyone take me seriously if I leave my children to starve and neglect my duty towards them?

That is your prerogative.  You gotta do what you wanna do.  I don't think putting justice above duty is necessarily rational either.  I don't like Alistair's outburst, but I do see his point.  I understand why his character would do it and I don't think it is because he craves vengeance above all else.

The same could be said about him supposedely being a justice fanatic. Why leave then? If he thinks Loghain is an abomination that needs to be killed for the sake of justice alone, consequences be damned, why didn't he do it in the Landsmeet?
Same could be applied to vengeance.

Him not acting doesn't prove that he isn't vengeful anymore that it proves that he didnt' believe in justice (him leaving his people to die on the otherhand makes me not take him seriously on this point).

I explained why he left.  I've explained it every single time I posted!  My explanation wouldn't work if you substituted vengeance for justice.  That's why my explanation is such an important point!  If you think my characterization of Alistair is wrong that's fine.  But if you can't offer a better one that proves that he is driven by vengeance rather than justice I'm going to stick with my own story.    

No one argues for Loghain to be executed either and if what Bodahn says is true, most people are relieved if he is spared.

Yes, they are relieved that they can continue believing a lie.  They can continue to believe that they have a hero in Loghain that will always do what is right for them rather than a disgraced civil war inducing maniac that nearly cost them all their lives.  No one wants to lose their heroes.  No one wants to realize that everyone has their flaws. Loghain's redemption gives them hope.  A symbol they can continue to believe in, even if it is a charade.  People would rather have false hope than no hope at all.

phaonica wrote...
If he thinks that the PC warden is wholly representative of the institution of the Wardens and rejects the Wardens based on the actions of the PC, then I might also assume that he views the Landsmeet as representative of all of Ferelden, which has in his eyes failed to properly demand justice. So perhaps in his view, yes, Ferelden deserves to fall at that point.

I suppose you could argue that he feels they deserve to fall if they are unwilling to provide justice in their kingdom.  I'm not sure if I personally believe that he would be that harsh however.  Nevertheless, I'm not arguing that his desertion was smart, or even justified, only that his reasons for leaving were not driven by some primal need for vengeance or a whiny 'I didn't get my way!' storm off.  He left because he was truly sickened by the outcome, not as an ultimatum (although it did function that way). 

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
 If Loghain had won, I'd say that he was a brilliant, stategist who deserved all the booty he can carry and more.  However, he fails over and over throughout the game - so, he pays for his failure (not his morals) every single time.

This reminded me of something Zevran says

"I happen to be a very loyal person. Up until the point where someone expects me to die for failing. That's not a fault, really, is it? I mean, unless you're the sort who would do the same thing. In which case I... don't come very well recommended, I suppose."

I guess I'm not very inclined to execute someone for failure, especially considering all the nice saying we have about plans:
"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"
"The best laid schemes of mice and men / Go oft awry"

Poisoning Eamon rather undercuts the idea that it all took Loghain by surprise and he was just going with the flow at and after Ostagar.  It also is, in itself, an executable offense.

Sadly the sedating of Eamon is a left-over piece from a cut political plotline featuring the Empress of Orlais. (Eamon supporting Cailan's marriage to her etc.) Without that plotline, merely sedating instead of killing the hypocrite (Yep, I hate his guts) makes little sense.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

jpdipity wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
If Loghain thought the beacon was too late, he should have charged earlier

Too big of a risk, he could allow his whole army to be caught off guard and then sandwhiched.
He saw the darkspawn were more numerous than anyone expected.

I was under the impression that Loghain never intended for the beacon to be lit.

"Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected." - David Gaider
http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250

So, Loghain wanted to have control of the beacon in case he decided not to have it lit.  He was keeping his options open.

a-HA. . .very illuminating, thanks. So Loghain was thinking, as I did, that if he didn't want to put his soldiers in that battle then it would be better if the beacon were never lit. But he was making that call on the fly, whereas I assumed that he had made his decision not to take part in the battle before it ever started. But then he consented to having the Grey Wardens light the beacon, which would ensure his participation in the battle --until the beacon was actually lit, when he decided that there was no way he was joining the battle, after all. Interesting.

[CalJones]

What we know (from David Gaider) is this:



Cailan was making overtures to the Orlesians. Loghain didn't like the sound of this. We don't know the extent of this - obviously we've just found out that Bioware were originally planning a subplot where Cailan was going to divorce Anora for Celene, but it was axed from the game, and then a more muted reference to it reinserted in Return to Ostagar.



Either way, Loghain got a hint of it and didn't like it. He knew something was up and he knew Eamon would be firmly in Cailan's corner, so he decided to knock him out for a while with a "mystery illness" until he'd done yelling some sense into the idiot king (or beating him down at a Landsmeet, or whatever).



None of that had anything to do with Ostagar, although certainly his arguments with Cailan likely made his decision to walk away a bit easier. However, he didn't plan to walk away from the start. It was there as a contingency plan, but a good general plans for every eventuality.

[jpdipity]

Persephone wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

CalJones wrote...


One thing you can say about Loghain is that he doesn't turn away from anything, even if it means his death. He has many failings, but he is prepared to see things through to the end.

He doesn't turn away from anything.  Wait, except for the battle at Ostagar and, oh yeah, his King...

A battle many, including said moronic king, thought couldn't be won. Generals abandon parts of their armies all the time if strategy demands it. Remember The Battle Of West Hill in "The Stolen Throne"? 

I was just making a silly comment because of the literal meaning of CalJones' wording.  It wasn't intended as a judgement of Loghain.  I explained that in later posts.

No one told Cailan that this was unwinnable, difficult indeed, but not unwinnable.  I don't think Cailan thought that it was unwinnable either - he took precautions like any person in his position with any kind of sense would do. 

In fact, Loghain states that his plan should suffice; so, I think that Loghain thought just the opposite initially.  He may have changed his mind while on the battlefield and that is fair if you believe that is why he left the field.  I personally don't think that is why he left, but there is no proof one way or the other.

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

What we know (from David Gaider) is this:

Cailan was making overtures to the Orlesians. Loghain didn't like the sound of this. We don't know the extent of this - obviously we've just found out that Bioware were originally planning a subplot where Cailan was going to divorce Anora for Celene, but it was axed from the game, and then a more muted reference to it reinserted in Return to Ostagar.

Either way, Loghain got a hint of it and didn't like it. He knew something was up and he knew Eamon would be firmly in Cailan's corner, so he decided to knock him out for a while with a "mystery illness" until he'd done yelling some sense into the idiot king (or beating him down at a Landsmeet, or whatever).

None of that had anything to do with Ostagar, although certainly his arguments with Cailan likely made his decision to walk away a bit easier. However, he didn't plan to walk away from the start. It was there as a contingency plan, but a good general plans for every eventuality.

What strikes me as weird is: If Eamon had been sedated for soooooooo long, how could he send his greetings and promise Redcliffe forces at Ostagar within a week? 

[Sarah1281]

Persephone wrote...

CalJones wrote...

What we know (from David Gaider) is this:

Cailan was making overtures to the Orlesians. Loghain didn't like the sound of this. We don't know the extent of this - obviously we've just found out that Bioware were originally planning a subplot where Cailan was going to divorce Anora for Celene, but it was axed from the game, and then a more muted reference to it reinserted in Return to Ostagar.

Either way, Loghain got a hint of it and didn't like it. He knew something was up and he knew Eamon would be firmly in Cailan's corner, so he decided to knock him out for a while with a "mystery illness" until he'd done yelling some sense into the idiot king (or beating him down at a Landsmeet, or whatever).

None of that had anything to do with Ostagar, although certainly his arguments with Cailan likely made his decision to walk away a bit easier. However, he didn't plan to walk away from the start. It was there as a contingency plan, but a good general plans for every eventuality.

What strikes me as weird is: If Eamon had been sedated for soooooooo long, how could he send his greetings and promise Redcliffe forces at Ostagar within a week? 

He was ill but didn't immediately fall into a coma? The coma seemed to be a recent thing brought on by Connor's demon 'saving' him as it trapped Eamon in the Fade. Plus, it likely took Duncan awhile to get from Redcliffe to Ostagar and he may have even done that before hitting some of the Origins.

[Tackz]

Loghain would throw anyone under the bus to have his way. So he is a weak character imo.



I only killed him thinking he would drop awesomeness loot, but nope... oh well

[Sarah1281]

Tackz wrote...

Loghain would throw anyone under the bus to have his way. So he is a weak character imo.

Except for Anora who doesn't exactly return the favor.

[Tackz]

jpdipity wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

CalJones wrote...


One thing you can say about Loghain is that he doesn't turn away from anything, even if it means his death. He has many failings, but he is prepared to see things through to the end.

He doesn't turn away from anything.  Wait, except for the battle at Ostagar and, oh yeah, his King...

A battle many, including said moronic king, thought couldn't be won. Generals abandon parts of their armies all the time if strategy demands it. Remember The Battle Of West Hill in "The Stolen Throne"? 

I was just making a silly comment because of the literal meaning of CalJones' wording.  It wasn't intended as a judgement of Loghain.  I explained that in later posts.

No one told Cailan that this was unwinnable, difficult indeed, but not unwinnable.  I don't think Cailan thought that it was unwinnable either - he took precautions like any person in his position with any kind of sense would do. 

In fact, Loghain states that his plan should suffice; so, I think that Loghain thought just the opposite initially.  He may have changed his mind while on the battlefield and that is fair if you believe that is why he left the field.  I personally don't think that is why he left, but there is no proof one way or the other.

Oh whatever, it's obvious he planned to back out before it even started. Cailan and Duncan were owning until the big guy took them out then the rest rushed Duncan.
But look on the bright side, we can pay cash to loot them

[Tackz]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Tackz wrote...

Loghain would throw anyone under the bus to have his way. So he is a weak character imo.

Except for Anora who doesn't exactly return the favor.

psssh if that hooker has a problem I would just kill her too.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

None of that had anything to do with Ostagar, although certainly his arguments with Cailan likely made his decision to walk away a bit easier. However, he didn't plan to walk away from the start. It was there as a contingency plan, but a good general plans for every eventuality.

Contingency plan is "what would I do if pushed to the wall."  Poisoning someone in his own home is more than a contingency plan.

As far as timing, it would have had to be shortly before Ostagar.  Duncan sees Eamon, then goes "wherever" where he recruits the Warden as Jowan is escaping from the Tower.  Jowan is captured, Loghain comes to see him in Denerim and sends him to Redcliffe, then goes on to Ostagar. 

[Persephone]

Tackz wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Tackz wrote...

Loghain would throw anyone under the bus to have his way. So he is a weak character imo.

Except for Anora who doesn't exactly return the favor.

psssh if that hooker has a problem I would just kill her too.

How is Anora a "hooker" in ANY way?

[Sarah1281]

Persephone wrote...

Tackz wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Tackz wrote...

Loghain would throw anyone under the bus to have his way. So he is a weak character imo.

Except for Anora who doesn't exactly return the favor.

psssh if that hooker has a problem I would just kill her too.

How is Anora a "hooker" in ANY way?

Presumably in the way that this troll doesn't like her and she is female.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
I explained why he left.  I've explained it every single time I posted!  My explanation wouldn't work if you substituted vengeance for justice.  That's why my explanation is such an important point!  

If you think Alistair puts justice above all else, then no your explanation is not satisfactory.

Keep in mind that Alistair can watch and even participate in the massacre of the Dalish, with a small approval loss that could easily be recovered. Alsitair can witness the warden do things that can rightfully be considered more terrible than what Loghain does and yet he does not act against you. So if he was so adamant about justice, why didn't he act against your Warden's injustices?

You may say "it's gameplay mechanics". The same argument can be used as to why he didn't go bezerk in the landsmeet.
In-game, the only way I see it is because the crimes the Warden commits are not like what Loghain did, namely take away Duncan from him. Hence why it's not impartial justice, but subjective revenge he is looking for.

[Giggles_Manically]

On my evil mage Alistair saw:
The killing of anyone who could be killed.
The Slaughter of the Dalish
The Anvil Kept
The slaver Blood Ritual used.
The Urn destroyed and Wynne/Leliana/The Guardian killed
Vaughen let out after we learn what he did.
The Mages annihalted and my mage gleefully killing them with blood magic.
He also watched my mage sucker punch Isolde, and kill Conner.

If he can stand by someone like that, and I finished at +70 approval without anything but plot gifts and some kind words then... really its just about Duncan at that point when he wants to kill Loghain. Everd did all these things with his bare hands, yet Loghain who never personally did most of his actions dosent look so bad.

Drats. ed by KoP. Should have looked up.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:27 .

[Addai]

Soo... Alistair should have tried to kill the Warden?

[Costin_Razvan]

The Slaughter of the Dalish

Off-Topic, but why do people REALLY insist that killing the elves is the most "evil" option? Cause in my opinion siding with Zathrian is the worst option anyone can do.

 Soo... Alistair should have tried to kill the Warden?

He should have hated the Warden, the fact that you can do all those and still maintain a good approval with him ( especially if you harden him ), shows just what kind of "good" person he really is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Soo... Alistair should have tried to kill the Warden?

I just find it funny that Alistair has issues with Loghain.
Yet outside of the Conner thing and maybe ONE line thats it.

Everd was way more evil and did way more monsterous things than Loghain.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The Slaughter of the Dalish

Off-Topic, but why do people REALLY insist that killing the elves is the most "evil" option? Cause in my opinion siding with Zathrian is the worst option anyone can do.

Not to me but its the most carnage and nastiest one. Some of the kills are just grusome.
Plus you are also condeming many to a painful and twisted existince.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Soo... Alistair should have tried to kill the Warden?

If you believe that Alistair believes Loghain should be killed for justice's sake, why can't the Warden?
Because the Wardens can do whatever they feel is necessary, but not Loghain?

The question is not whether he should or shouldn't. The question is, if he supposedely cares about justice and not revenge, why not try to punish the Warden who can do acts as "unjust" as Loghain?

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Soo... Alistair should have tried to kill the Warden?

If you believe that Alistair believes Loghain should be killed for justice's sake, why can't the Warden?
Because the Wardens can do whatever they feel is necessary, but not Loghain?

The question is not whether he should or shouldn't. The question is, if he supposedely cares about justice and not revenge, why not try to punish the Warden who can do acts as "unjust" as Loghain?

Alistair should have wanted Loghain in the party over Everd.
But since Everd never was mean about Duncan and didnt kill Duncan, Alistair had no issues with him.