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[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain's black armor in the coronation is awesome btw.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain's black armor in the coronation is awesome btw.

Pics please!
Been a while since I had Loghain at the Coronation.

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain's black armor in the coronation is awesome btw.

Pics please!
Been a while since I had Loghain at the Coronation.

This one?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain's black armor in the coronation is awesome btw.

Pics please!
Been a while since I had Loghain at the Coronation.

Stupid console. Can't take screenies.

EDIT: Yes Zjarcal! Thanks

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:55 .

[Monica21]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Everd was way more evil and did way more monsterous things than Loghain.

I don't remember who that is. :/

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If you think Alistair puts justice above all else, then no your explanation is not satisfactory.

Keep in mind that Alistair can watch and even participate in the massacre of the Dalish, with a small approval loss that could easily be recovered. Alsitair can witness the warden do things that can rightfully be considered more terrible than what Loghain does and yet he does not act against you. So if he was so adamant about justice, why didn't he act against your Warden's injustices?

You may say "it's gameplay mechanics". The same argument can be used as to why he didn't go bezerk in the landsmeet.
In-game, the only way I see it is because the crimes the Warden commits are not like what Loghain did, namely take away Duncan from him. Hence why it's not impartial justice, but subjective revenge he is looking for.

I said he puts it above his duty.  For him to leave he only needs to put his sense of justice above his sense of duty to stopping the blight.  I have taken issue with two things you have said.

1)  That Alistair is driven by vengeance above all else.

2) That the fact that he deserts means that he doesn't care about justice.  Specifically you stated that all arguments for justice are countered when he decided to leave all those people to die.  Leaving everyone to die is not a matter of justice, it is a matter of duty.  They are not the same thing.  You can disagree with his point of view but you can't use that argument to extrapolate that he doesn't care about justice.

I will go ahead and say that it is 'gameplay mechanics.'  Just because you recognize that possibility doesn't make it any less true.  Alistair is an integral part of the plot and he can't have a crisis moment at every single one of your decisions because the story requires him to be a party member at the Landsmeet.  If you choose to spare Loghain, Alistair no longer serves a purpose, he is replaced by Loghain.  Therefore, had the designers wanted to make him a crazed vengeance seeker they easily could have.  Gameplay mechanics do not prevent this course of action or affect the rest of the actual game in any meaningful way.

But, if you insist that those two situations are identical in terms of what gameplay mechanics will allow, I can go along with that.  All it proves is that Alistair is either willing to tolerate some injustices with only a loss of approval or that the decisions he disagrees with don't necessarily reflect a miscarriage of justice in his mind.  Either way, you can't explain why Alistair doesn't try to kill Loghain himself after you have chosen to spare him.  Why would he just desert rather than attempt to claim vengeance if he was so consumed by it?  The only answers you have been able to conjure on this point are entirely arbitrary.  'He's too lazy, he's a quitter, he's weak, etc.'   Those points are not evidenced in the game.  

For the last time, I am not arguing that this isn't personal for Alistair.  Or even that he wouldn't love to see Loghain dead for what he has done to Duncan and the other Grey Wardens specifically.  My point is, just because it is personal doesn't mean his sense of justice is wrong, it merely makes him more invested.  I've said the decision should not be left up to him because he is far too biased.  That doesn't mean that Loghain doesn't deserve to pay for his crimes.

Look at it this way.  Everyone went a little crazy when Gaider revealed that Cailan was planning to marry Celene.  He said the original plot planned to show that Loghain discovered Cailan's plan and abandoned him at Ostagar.  This would make Loghain's betrayal seem very personal.  And in fact, I'm sure that he was quite glad to be rid of the little brat.  Nevertheless, that wouldn't prove that vengeance was the primary motive for his desertion if you had a better understanding of Loghain's character.  Why is this so different?

Costin_Razvan wrote...
He should have hated the Warden, the fact that you can do all those and still maintain a good approval with him ( especially if you harden him ), shows just what kind of "good" person he really is.

No it doesn't.  It proves the gift system was broken.  Something I thought we all already knew.  You can maintain decent relationships with all of your companions until you face their 'crisis' point.

Modifié par jvee, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Everd was way more evil and did way more monsterous things than Loghain.

I don't remember who that is. :/

Everd is the guy whose armor you steal and who you impersonate in the DC origin but I think he was talking about one of his Wardens.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Everd was way more evil and did way more monsterous things than Loghain.

I don't remember who that is. :/

Everd is the guy whose armor you steal and who you impersonate in the DC origin but I think he was talking about one of his Wardens.

That was my pure evil warden.

Even my Sith Revan, and Cerberus Shep would not want to be anywhere near him.

[Giggles_Manically]

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If you think Alistair puts justice above all else, then no your explanation is not satisfactory.

Keep in mind that Alistair can watch and even participate in the massacre of the Dalish, with a small approval loss that could easily be recovered. Alsitair can witness the warden do things that can rightfully be considered more terrible than what Loghain does and yet he does not act against you. So if he was so adamant about justice, why didn't he act against your Warden's injustices?

You may say "it's gameplay mechanics". The same argument can be used as to why he didn't go bezerk in the landsmeet.
In-game, the only way I see it is because the crimes the Warden commits are not like what Loghain did, namely take away Duncan from him. Hence why it's not impartial justice, but subjective revenge he is looking for.

I said he puts it above his duty.  For him to leave he only needs to put his sense of justice above his sense of duty to stopping the blight.  I have taken issue with two things you have said.

1)  That Alistair is driven by vengeance above all else.

2) That the fact that he deserts means that he doesn't care about justice.  Specifically you stated that all arguments for justice are countered when he decided to leave all those people to die.  Leaving everyone to die is not a matter of justice, it is a matter of duty.  They are not the same thing.  You can disagree with his point of view but you can't use that argument to extrapolate that he doesn't care about justice.

I will go ahead and say that it is 'gameplay mechanics.'  Just because you recognize that possibility doesn't make it any less true.  Alistair is an integral part of the plot and he can't have a crisis moment at every single one of your decisions because the story requires him to be a party member at the Landsmeet.  If you choose to spare Loghain, Alistair no longer serves a purpose, he is replaced by Loghain.  Therefore, had the designers wanted to make him a crazed vengeance seeker they easily could have.  Gameplay mechanics do not prevent this course of action or effect the rest of the actual game in any meaningful way.

But, if you insist that those two situations are identical in terms of what gameplay mechanics will allow, I can go along with that.  All it proves is that Alistair is either willing to tolerate some injustices with only a loss of approval or that the decisions he disagrees with don't necessarily reflect a miscarriage of justice in his mind.  Either way, you can't explain why Alistair doesn't try to kill Loghain himself after you have chosen to spare him.  Why would he just desert rather than attempt to claim vengeance if he was so consumed by it?  The only answers you have been able to conjure on this point are entirely arbitrary.  'He's too lazy, he's a quitter, he's weak, etc.'   Those points are not evidenced in the game.  

For the last time, I am not arguing that this isn't personal for Alistair.  Or even that he wouldn't love to see Loghain dead for what he has done to Duncan and the other Grey Wardens specifically.  My point is, just because it is personal doesn't mean his sense of justice is wrong, it merely makes him more invested.  I've said the decision should not be left up to him because he is far too biased.  That doesn't mean that Loghain doesn't deserve to pay for his crimes.

Look at it this way.  Everyone went a little crazy when Gaider revealed that Cailan was planning to marry Celene.  He said the original plot planned to show that Loghain discovered Cailan's plan and abandoned him at Ostagar.  This would make Loghain's betrayal seem very personal.  And in fact, I'm sure that he was quite glad to be rid of the little brat.  Nevertheless, that wouldn't prove that vengeance was the primary motive for his desertion if you had a better understanding of Loghain's character.  Why is this so different?

Costin_Razvan wrote...
He should have hated the Warden, the fact that you can do all those and still maintain a good approval with him ( especially if you harden him ), shows just what kind of "good" person he really is.

No it doesn't.  It proves the gift system was broken.  Something I thought we all already knew.  You can maintain decent relationships with all of your companions until you face their 'crisis' point.

Actually I only ever said nice things to him, and gave him plot gifts:
Mother's Amulet, Joining Chalice, and Duncan's Sheild.

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...
Look at it this way.  Everyone went a little crazy when Gaider revealed that Cailan was planning to marry Celene.  He said the original plot planned to show that Loghain discovered Cailan's plan and abandoned him at Ostagar.  This would make Loghain's betrayal seem very personal.  And in fact, I'm sure that he was quite glad to be rid of the little brat.  Nevertheless, that wouldn't prove that vengeance was the primary motive for his desertion if you had a better understanding of Loghain's character.  Why is this so different?

It's not so different. As a matter of fact, when that issue came up, I expressed on this very thread that I wanted to know exactly when Loghain found out about Cailan and Celene, because if that had played a primary part in his desertion, my first instinct was to like Loghain less.

[Costin_Razvan]

No it doesn't. It proves the gift system was broken. Something I thought we all already knew. You can maintain decent relationships with all of your companions until you face their 'crisis' point.

Right, perhaps you missed the part where Giggles mentioned he only gave Alistair plot gifts ( Aka Duncan's Shield and his mother's amulet and Joining Chalice. ) without those ( which equal at most to 40 approval ) his approval with Alistair would still have been 30, which is quite decent.

So your argument about gifts is invalid.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No it doesn't. It proves the gift system was broken. Something I thought we all already knew. You can maintain decent relationships with all of your companions until you face their 'crisis' point.

Right, perhaps you missed the part where Giggles mentioned he only gave Alistair plot gifts ( Aka Duncan's Shield and his mother's amulet. ) without those ( which equal at most to 40 approval ) his approval with Alistair would still have been 30, which is quite decent.

So your argument about gifts is invalid.

Its wierd though Loghain may have killed more people, but he didnt PERSONALLY do it.

Everd just gleefully massacared people left and right, was a sadictic lying bastard who used people, and only spared Loghain to make Anora happy (since he planned on mind controlling her, blood mage style).

Only Morrigan ever saw him for what he was, when he turned down the DR since it wasent part of his plan and told her off very harshly.

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Everd was way more evil and did way more monsterous things than Loghain.

I don't remember who that is. :/

Everd is the guy whose armor you steal and who you impersonate in the DC origin but I think he was talking about one of his Wardens.

Ah, okay. Makes more sense now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
I said he puts it above his duty.  For him to leave he only needs to put his sense of justice above his sense of duty to stopping the blight.  

Still doesn't explain why he didn't kill Loghain at the landmseet. And if you think it's because he became so delusionned and his immature ideals became broken, that makes him a quitter, which fits what I am saying.  

jvee wrote...
1)  That Alistair is driven by vengeance above all else.

In this particular issue, absolutely. 

jvee wrote...
Therefore, had the designers wanted to make him a crazed vengeance seeker they easily could have.  Gameplay mechanics do not prevent this course of action or effect the rest of the actual game in any meaningful way.

No, because of limited ressources. The DR scene was supposed to be very different, but the devs couldn't do it like they wanted.

About Loghain's acts being more unjust than ours. Eh no, selling slaves is one thing. Sacrificing them via blood magic is at the very least equal in terms of "injustice".  Massacring the Dalish is just like Loghain killing his enemies.

If Alistair fails to see that, then he is blind and his supposed "sense of justice" is too conveniently targetted against Loghain which makes it too partial for it to be qualified as "just" imo.

jvee wrote...
Either way, you can't explain why Alistair doesn't try to kill Loghain himself after you have chosen to spare him.  Why would he just desert rather than attempt to claim vengeance if he was so consumed by it?  The only answers you have been able to conjure on this point are entirely arbitrary.  'He's too lazy, he's a quitter, he's weak, etc.'   Those points are not evidenced in the game.  

He is quitter, he quits on his sister without trying to understand her position because she broke his expectations, which is quite similar to the landsmeet situation.

jvee wrote...
For the last time, I am not arguing that this isn't personal for Alistair.  

And for the last time, I wasn't even addressing you with that argument. 

jvee wrote...
 My point is, just because it is personal doesn't mean his sense of justice is wrong, it merely makes him more invested.  I've said the decision should not be left up to him because he is far too biased.  That doesn't mean that Loghain doesn't deserve to pay for his crimes.

When justice is personal and not impartial, it can be seen as deviating to vengeance. But this calls for a philosophical debate on what justice is that I am not interested in getting to. My original point was that Alistair's reason for killing Loghain is purely personal. whether it was for what you define as justice or revenge, it matters little to me.

jvee wrote...
Look at it this way.  Everyone went a little crazy when Gaider revealed that Cailan was planning to marry Celene.  He said the original plot planned to show that Loghain discovered Cailan's plan and abandoned him at Ostagar.  This would make Loghain's betrayal seem very personal.  And in fact, I'm sure that he was quite glad to be rid of the little brat.  Nevertheless, that wouldn't prove that vengeance was the primary motive for his desertion if you had a better understanding of Loghain's character.  Why is this so different?

If DA was like it was originally envisionned, I would have faulted Loghain for doing this. He could have easily got rid of Cailan without putting all of Ferelden at risk.
Plus, Loghain was not supposed to do this for his daughter alone, but for Ferelden. Different, it's not only personal.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...
It's not so different. As a matter of fact, when that issue came up, I expressed on this very thread that I wanted to know exactly when Loghain found out about Cailan and Celene, because if that had played a primary part in his desertion, my first instinct was to like Loghain less. 

I like you.  We have had long discussions of Loghain in pages past and I understand your point of view completely.  Personally, I think it would have been interesting for that plot point to make it into the game.  So much of Loghain is about him rejecting human sentimentality in favor of his duty.  Something that casts doubt on his motives and makes him seem more human is intriguing to me, even if I would ultimately reject the notion that it was his primary motivation.
 

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Right, perhaps you missed the part where Giggles mentioned he only gave Alistair plot gifts ( Aka Duncan's Shield and his mother's amulet and Joining Chalice. ) without those ( which equal at most to 40 approval ) his approval with Alistair would still have been 30, which is quite decent.

So your argument about gifts is invalid.

Explain to me how that reflects anything on Alistair's character.  You can do exactly that with every single companion in the game.  Until you face their crisis point what you say and do means very little since you can compensate with gifts and kind words.  In real life, people do not exist on a one hundred point scale of 'likability.'

[KnightofPhoenix]

The coronation scene is always heartaching for me

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

Yes, they are relieved that they can continue believing a lie.  They can continue to believe that they have a hero in Loghain that will always do what is right for them rather than a disgraced civil war inducing maniac that nearly cost them all their lives.  No one wants to lose their heroes.  No one wants to realize that everyone has their flaws. Loghain's redemption gives them hope.  A symbol they can continue to believe in, even if it is a charade.  People would rather have false hope than no hope at all.

I don't think it's a lie that Loghain cares about those people. The symbol they've built based on him is mostly an illusion--most symbols are-- but it is a symbol based on him, it's not something that they made up out of thin air.

phaonica wrote...
If he thinks that the PC warden is wholly representative of the institution of the Wardens and rejects the Wardens based on the actions of the PC, then I might also assume that he views the Landsmeet as representative of all of Ferelden, which has in his eyes failed to properly demand justice. So perhaps in his view, yes, Ferelden deserves to fall at that point.

I suppose you could argue that he feels they deserve to fall if they are unwilling to provide justice in their kingdom.  I'm not sure if I personally believe that he would be that harsh however.  Nevertheless, I'm not arguing that his desertion was smart, or even justified, only that his reasons for leaving were not driven by some primal need for vengeance or a whiny 'I didn't get my way!' storm off.  He left because he was truly sickened by the outcome, not as an ultimatum (although it did function that way). 

How do you interpret the line "Forget Maric. This is for Duncan"? (forgive me if you explained this to me somewhere before, I dont' remember).

[Zjarcal]

jvee wrote...

Explain to me how that reflects anything on Alistair's character.  You can do exactly that with every single companion in the game.  Until you face their crisis point what you say and do means very little since you can compensate with gifts and kind words.  In real life, people do not exist on a one hundred point scale of 'likability.'

The idea is that the "bad things" you do, affect him so little that they don't prevent you from keeping a high approval with him. If he were to take massive approval drops from those actions, it would be impossible to keep him in the positive side with simple kind words and plot gifts.

The approval system is flawed, on that I completely agree with you, but it does help in understanding the type of character you're dealing with.

[Costin_Razvan]

Explain to me how that reflects anything on Alistair's character. You can do exactly that with every single companion in the game. Until you face their crisis point what you say and do means very little since you can compensate with gifts and kind words. In real life, people do not exist on a one hundred point scale of 'likability.'

Oh, so in real life a person would claim to have a sense of justice when they only provide a weak argument for situations which are FAR worse then killing Connor, using Blood Magic on Isolde. Besides the Landsmeet that is the only situation where Alistair will actually argue against you, instead of providing a single sodding line.

If he is inclined to justice then he scream out on you slaughtering the Werewolves, preserving the Anvil, destroying the Circle and killing Wynne and Leliana, but he does not. If he is hardened he doesn't even provide that ONE line in those situations.

Your only companion in Origins which has a real sense of Justice is Wynne, and regardless of how annoying she is, she will fight you like hell so you will make the choices she believes are right.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Explain to me how that reflects anything on Alistair's character. You can do exactly that with every single companion in the game. Until you face their crisis point what you say and do means very little since you can compensate with gifts and kind words. In real life, people do not exist on a one hundred point scale of 'likability.'

Oh, so in real life a person would claim to have a sense of justice when they only provide a weak argument for situations which are FAR worse then killing Connor, using Blood Magic on Isolde. Besides the Landsmeet that is the only situation where Alistair will actually argue against you, instead of providing a single sodding line.

If he is inclined to justice then he scream out on you slaughtering the Werewolves, preserving the Anvil, destroying the Circle and killing Wynne and Leliana, but he does not. If he is hardened he doesn't even provide that ONE line in those situations.

Although on that run I didnt harden him.

Part of Everd's charm is that he was a pschyopath. No exaggeration there he said what people wanted to hear but then did terrible things without a care. He romanced Leliana, and Morrigan but killed Leliana at the Urn and turned down the DR.

I killed a bit of my soul while playing him I think.

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

phaonica wrote...
It's not so different. As a matter of fact, when that issue came up, I expressed on this very thread that I wanted to know exactly when Loghain found out about Cailan and Celene, because if that had played a primary part in his desertion, my first instinct was to like Loghain less. 

I like you.  We have had long discussions of Loghain in pages past and I understand your point of view completely.  Personally, I think it would have been interesting for that plot point to make it into the game.  So much of Loghain is about him rejecting human sentimentality in favor of his duty.  Something that casts doubt on his motives and makes him seem more human is intriguing to me, even if I would ultimately reject the notion that it was his primary motivation.

I'm glad it didn't. Though I personally appreciate the quality, his "rejecting human sentimentality in favor of his duty" has made him unpopular and unlikable enough without throwing some potential vengeance against Cailan in there. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Giggles....you scare me sometimes.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Giggles....you scare me sometimes.

I scared myself to be honest.

Even TIM would be freaked out by Everd. And that is saying things.
I honestly dont think I will import Everd.

But that was my one all evil, all the time Warden.
I do that at least once in every RPG.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
My original point was that Alistair's reason for killing Loghain is purely personal. whether it was for what you define as justice or revenge, it matters little to me.

Prove that it was purely personal.  Prove that my explanation of why he left is invalid and your argument that he only wants Loghain dead for his own personal satisfaction is true.

If he leaves because his little idealistic world was shattered then it wasn't about vengeance, it was about justice.  You are arguing that he is consumed by vengeance up until the point it is difficult and then he stops.  So he only cared enough about Duncan to argue for Loghain's death, not take action?  Does that make any sense to you?

He is a quitter, sure.  He deserted.  By definition he is a quitter.  But why he quit is important.  Are you saying he quit because it got too hard?  I just don't understand what scenario could exist where Alistair is completely consumed by thoughts of revenge only to abandon them when the Warden doesn't make it so.  Why do you think he left?

phaonica wrote...
I don't think it's a lie that Loghain cares about those people. The symbol they've built based on him is mostly an illusion--most symbols are-- but it is a symbol based on him, it's not something that they made up out of thin air.

What you are quoting there is in regards to the idea that the common man wants Loghain spared.  Ignoring the fact that it comes from rumors, there is plenty of reason for commoners to be glad that Loghain is alive.  They identify with him.  He represents everything they can accomplish if they work hard and sacrifice for their country.  But I don't think they realize that he doesn't actually care about any of them individually.  He would sacrifice every last one of them and himself for the security of Ferelden.  When your average person comes to face that reality their perception of Loghain would likely change.  They don't realize everything he has had to do to preserve their kingdom.  They would rather just believe that he represents the Ferelden version of the 'American dream.'

Anyway, all of that is irrelevant.  They want him spared for selfish reasons.  They want a symbol to aspire to, someone they can believe in.  They don't want to lose the one man who has represented so much for them, even if he had made some mistakes.  The fact that most seem glad that he is spared doesn't have anything to do with justice.  All it means is the common man is more forgiving when the person 'on trial' is a Fereldan Hero.  

To address your last point more directly, I don't mean to imply there is no reason for him to symbolize what he does.  I don't think they created his legend out of thin air.  I just don't think the common man is terribly concerned with justice as much as they are with having something to believe in, even if it's false. 

How do you interpret the line "Forget Maric. This is for Duncan"? (forgive me if you explained this to me somewhere before, I dont' remember). 

I interpret it that he is doing it for Duncan and not for Ferelden.  He's doing it for the victims of Loghain's crimes and not for the preservation of the country.

phaonica wrote...
I'm glad it didn't. Though I personally appreciate the quality, his "rejecting human sentimentality in favor of his duty" has made him unpopular and unlikable enough without throwing some potential vengeance against Cailan in there. 

I spend most of my forum time in this thread so all I get is Loghain love.  Personally, I couldn't care less if everyone else who plays the game hates him, I appreciate the character.

[Costin_Razvan]

Never saw a point to that...I usually play all my characters doing the same major choices, maybe with some changes that I feel fine with like annulling the Circle at the end without killing Wynne, destroying the Anvil, Slaughtering the Dalish instead of curing the curse and the Landsmeet leadership decision, though I always spare Loghain.



That and changing my romance options. Only game where I could say I made vastly different choices was the Witcher, though I only played it twice I did make my second character my cannon and don't have any saves left of my first to import in Witcher.2.



Siding with the Scoia'tel really left a very bitter taste in my mouth as I REALLY hate terrorists like them. Only did it to help Vivaldi...but didn't matter so yeah.

That and romancing Shanni, I really don't like for Triss to use Geralt as her political tool.