12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Never saw a point to that...I usually play all my characters doing the same major choices, maybe with some changes that I feel fine with like annulling the Circle at the end without killing Wynne, destroying the Anvil, Slaughtering the Dalish instead of curing the curse and the Landsmeet leadership decision, though I always spare Loghain.

That and changing my romance options. Only game where I could say I made vastly different choices was the Witcher, though I only played it twice I did make my second character my cannon and don't have any saves left of my first to import in Witcher.2.

Siding with the Scoia'tel really left a very bitter taste in my mouth as I REALLY hate terrorists like them. Only did it to help Vivaldi...but didn't matter so yeah.
That and romancing Shanni, I really don't like for Triss to use Geralt as her political tool.

I am waiting for Witcher Two to come out before trying to get into it.

I like seeing all the possible premutations that you can do in an RPG. However the playing a pure evil Shep/Revan/Warden/JE student is very hard. Just marks your sould alot.

[Costin_Razvan]

Witcher 1 is a LOOONG game, so I would really suggest finishing it before Witcher 2 comes out

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
If he leaves because his little idealistic world was shattered then it wasn't about vengeance, it was about justice.  You are arguing that he is consumed by vengeance up until the point it is difficult and then he stops.  So he only cared enough about Duncan to argue for Loghain's death, not take action?  Does that make any sense to you?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said he was consummed by revenge, you must have some really cliched view of what being vengeful is. I said his prime motivation for killing Loghain is revenge. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be mad and obsessed with revenge that he completely loses it and goes on to massacre eveyrone in his way. I never said he was like that.

"So he cared about justice enough to argue for Loghain's death, not take action? Does that make any sense to you?"

We can play this game all day.

The reason why I believe he left is because he felt so betrayed and disgusted by everything around him that he simply quit. Throughout the game, he doesn't want to impose himself on anyone, even in things he would feel strongly about. Even here, he can't impose himself on the PC and sees as having no choice but to leave.
How does that have to contradict him wanting revenge, I have no idea, unless you think being vengeful has to make you a bezerk who goes on killing sprees. 
 
You seem to believe that one can quit when arguing for justice (the fanatics of absolute justice would profoundly disagree with you anyways. "Let justice be done even should the whole world perish") . But can't when being vengeful. Makes little sense.
Unless you believe that being vengeful necessarily means you are consummed / obsessed by it, a notion I disagree with.

Furthermore, if Alistair left because of justice, why does he regret it later?
Did he realise that his sense of justice turned out to be crap? Or does it not show that he acted out of impulse (leaning towards revenge) and not an actual thought out position (which would be justice).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said he was consummed by revenge, you must have some really cliched view of what being vengeful is. I said his prime motivation for killing Loghain is revenge. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be mad and obsessed with revenge that he completely loses it and goes on to massacre eveyrone in his way. I never said he was like that.

I believe your exact words were, 'purely personal.'  I beg your pardon.  Clearly I misinterpreted you.  What I should have understood was that Alistair sort of wants vengeance, and only wants Loghain dead because he killed Duncan specifically.  When he doesn't get that he decides to storm off like a child, hoping to find someone else to bend to his every whim.  Yep.  Good ol' Alistair.  I don't know how I couldn't see that!  It makes perfect sense for a person to behave that way, even though he has never really shown the manipulative behavior of a petulant child before.  

We can play this game all day.

Let's do it. =P

The reason why I believe he left is because he felt so betrayed and disgusted by everything around him that he simply quit. Throughout the game, he doesn't want to impose himself on anyone, even in things he would feel strongly about. Even here, he can't impose himself on the PC and sees as having no choice but to leave.
How does that have to contradict him wanting revenge, I have no idea, unless you think being vengeful has to make you a bezerk who goes on killing sprees. 
 

But why did he feel disgusted?  Because he didn't get his way?  This is an important point in your case for vengeance I would think.

You seem to believe that one can quit when arguing for justice (the fanatics of absolute justice would profoundly disagree with you anyways. "Let justice be done even should the whole world perish") . But can't when being vengeful. Makes little sense.
Unless you believe that being vengeful necessarily means you are consummed / obsessed by it, a notion I disagree with.

I can understand the confusion.  I really can.  I'll explain it once more.  Alistair lives in an ideal world where people are punished for their bad deeds.  When the Warden chooses to spare Loghain you are shattering that idealistic world view.  He is disgusted by this newfound understanding and only wants to escape it because he can't face the reality.  THIS IS WHY HE LEAVES.  I am not arguing that he values justice above all else, I am explaining why he feels the need to desert.

If you replace what I just explained with 'vengeance' it doesn't make any sense.  He doesn't want Loghain dead purely for his own satisfaction, he wants justice.  He wants you to do what he feels is right.  What is 'right' exists separately from what he personally desires.  These are important distinctions from vengeance.

Furthermore, if Alistair left because of justice, why does he regret it later?
Did he realise that his sense of justice turned out to be crap? Or does it not show that he acted out of impulse (leaning towards revenge) and not an actual thought out position (which would be justice).

He regrets it later (I guess?) because it was a stupidly immature thing to do.  It's the same reason you have argued that his desertion is stupid.  His duty to stopping the blight is more important than delivering justice to Loghain.  At the time, he couldn't abide someone escaping punishment for their crimes.  Later, he comes to realize that his immature world view must be put aside to achieve overarching goals.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Witcher 1 is a LOOONG game, so I would really suggest finishing it before Witcher 2 comes out

Maybe I have four more Dragon Age runs in the work right now.

Also arent some choice going to be imported into Witcher 2?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

"Justice" is little more than state-sponsored/socially sanctioned revenge, in the worldly sense. In the karmic/cosmic sense, it is a return to a natural state of balance, completely devoid of more preconceptions.



Was Alistair's urge to kill Loghain purely personal? Mostly, yes. Alistair is a highly emotional person whose heart is far more in charge than his head on most matters. Thus, he is demanding Loghain's execution mostly from his heart and guts. Reason and foresight have little to do with it.



But that is who Alistair is. It's a duality of being his greatest flaw and greatest strength.



Vengance or the need for it is no more wrong or right than most things. It all depends on your personal philosophy or perspective. Same with justice.



Loghain was a much naughtier boy than the Warden could ever be numerically. But depending on your Warden's choices and behavior, your Warden by sheer magnitude could easily outdo Loghain on the evil scale.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
But why did he feel disgusted?  Because he didn't get his way?  This is an important point in your case for vengeance I would think.

Partially, as well as him feeling that the Warden betrayed him.
He couldn't bear the idea of Loghain living and yet is not strong enough to impose his desire, so when backed into a corner he leaves.

And yes he does act like a child. He tells you to use blood magic on Isolde, then gets angry at you and blames everything on you for not trying hard enough, while it was he who suggested this in the first place. And when you suggest that he becomes the leader and decide from now on, he throws it at you again and says only you can do it.
Yes, child like behaviour. 

If you replace what I just explained with 'vengeance' it doesn't make any sense.  He doesn't want Loghain dead purely for his own satisfaction, he wants justice.  He wants you to do what he feels is right.  What is 'right' exists separately from what he personally desires.  These are important distinctions from vengeance.

If I replace any word with your narrow explanation, it wouldn't make any sense. But I don't feel the need to use your explanation at all as a foundation. And vice versa I am sure.  

He regrets it later (I guess?) because it was a stupidly immature thing to do.  It's the same reason you have argued that his desertion is stupid.  His duty to stopping the blight is more important than delivering justice to Loghain.  At the time, he couldn't abide someone escaping punishment for their crimes.  Later, he comes to realize that his immature world view must be put aside to achieve overarching goals.

And to celebrate his new found wisdom, he becomes a drunk. Yea.
 
I think it's because he knows that he acted on impulse and didn't actually think this through. Justice is a thought out impartial position, which Alistair doesn't act upon. Revenge is most of the time an impulse. Alistair leaving is an impulsive act and not rational. I immeditiately regard any irrational claim of justice as a joke, but maybe that's just me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[Sarah1281]

However the playing a pure evil Shep/Revan/Warden/JE student is very hard.

I tried to play a pure evil JE game once but I just couldn't refuse that little ghost girl who couldn't cross the puddle. I did everything else including killing off half of my party to poison a god but that...and since I was mostly evil the minor good deed bumped my karma meter up way higher than it should have been!

Alistair lives in an ideal world where people are punished for their bad deeds.

Then how does he explain the evil-type Warden being such a karma houdini?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Soo... Alistair should have tried to kill the Warden?

If you believe that Alistair believes Loghain should be killed for justice's sake, why can't the Warden?
Because the Wardens can do whatever they feel is necessary, but not Loghain?

The question is not whether he should or shouldn't. The question is, if he supposedely cares about justice and not revenge, why not try to punish the Warden who can do acts as "unjust" as Loghain?

Well, it's true that there are Wardens (as reported here on the forum) that make me wish Loghain had won.

We both know the reason Alistair can't kill the Warden and it has nothing to do with his character.

And, are you still on this?  You're like a mabari with an Alistair chew toy.  LOL

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
We both know the reason Alistair can't kill the Warden and it has nothing to do with his character.

With that logic, every single character in the game is not being true to their character.
Perhaps you should remember that Alistair is a game character and nothing else and he is what he is in the game.

If this was a game character based on a real person or a literary figure, then you can argue whether the game was true to his character or not. Here, what you see is what you get.

[Addai]

Posting this because even I would rather see a Loghain squee thread (as weird as that sounds) than yet another Alistair-Loghain thunderdome match.

And because it's graced with the awesomeness that is Maric, so it's ok!

[Monica21]

I think a little too much is being made of Alistair's opinion of the Warden. I'm pretty sure you can get him to -100, and he still hates you, but is with you because the two of you are the only Wardens in Ferelden. No, he doesn't have negative approval on every decision an evil Warden makes, but the game only goes to -100.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The epilogue suggests only Anora remembers him particularly fondly, if he dies at the landsmeet.

If you ask Bodahn for rumors after the landsmeet he says that while there are a few people who are angry at Loghain being spared, most people are relieved for they will never forget what Loghain did for them.

(husband) Unlike my wife, I'm reasonably Loghain friendly.   But the statue thing (harly anone than anora visiting his statue), is a pretty powerful statement.   It seems to me there is a lot of ambivalence towards Logain.   At least there is if he doesn't do the US,

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
(husband) Unlike my wife, I'm reasonably Loghain friendly.   But the statue thing (harly anone than anora visiting his statue), is a pretty powerful statement.   It seems to me there is a lot of ambivalence towards Logain.   At least there is if he doesn't do the US,

Probably because they have a new hero to honor now. 
And him dying in the landsmeet is a stain on his name (not his person, imo him letting go at the landsmeet and accepting taht someone is better than him is one of his finer moments).

I do believe however, from Bodahn's words, that most would rather have Loghain spared than killed if possible.  

[TJPags]

Re: Loghain realizes someone is better than him.



Can I ask what, exactly, your PC does that makes him realize this? All I can see, honestly, is that you beat him in a fight, one on one. Up to that point, he remains defiant.



So is it just that he realizes you're a better one-on-one fighter than he is, or am I missing something?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Re: Loghain realizes someone is better than him.

Can I ask what, exactly, your PC does that makes him realize this? All I can see, honestly, is that you beat him in a fight, one on one. Up to that point, he remains defiant.

So is it just that he realizes you're a better one-on-one fighter than he is, or am I missing something?

He presumabebly sees a strength similar to Maric's in you.

But even before, he knew that it came down to either him or you. He even says respectfully before the duel that you are a worthy enemy (his Maric quote). Afterall, you had assembled an army by that point. 
 
However, it does seem like you literraly beat some sense in him (same with Sten, except I still think he's right in the Haven situation). Loghain, for better or worse, does not waver from his course easily, and yea you have to beat him to do it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...
  It makes perfect sense for a person to behave that way, even though he has never really shown the manipulative behavior of a petulant child before.  

Okay, so conversely where else has Alistair ever stood so adamantly for justice before the Landsmeet?

But why did he feel disgusted?  Because he didn't get his way?  This is an important point in your case for vengeance I would think.

I think so, yes. Not because Riordan was tortured, not because of the elves, not because of the soldiers lost at Ostagar. But because his feelings were hurt. It's the same reason that he confronts you about killing Connor. He *thinks* that he's confronting you because what you did was 'wrong' but he'll also say something along the lines of "I owe Eamon more than that." It's not about what's right, or practical, or just. It's about Alistair being self-centered.

[Addai]

Can someone post a naked Loghain please? Please?!! I'll do it if I have to. I won't like it, but I'll do it.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Can someone post a naked Loghain please? Please?!! I'll do it if I have to. I won't like it, but I'll do it.

Are you feeling alright Addai?

Naked Loggy... 

EDIT: He seems very naked here...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Can someone post a naked Loghain please? Please?!! I'll do it if I have to. I won't like it, but I'll do it.

Are you feeling alright Addai?

Naked Loggy... 

EDIT: He seems very naked here...

LOL  I'm just so tired of Alistair vs. Loghain that I'm desperate.

I know, I know.  I'll just go away now.

[Giggles_Manically]

Does anyone have that link to the picture where loghain is lying naked on his bed.

I think its called depression, or desperation.

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Does anyone have that link to the picture where loghain is lying naked on his bed.
I think its called depression, or desperation.

This one? It's called "Vulnerability" and it's by MaevesChild



http://fc02.devianta...MaevesChild.jpg

Modifié par Zjarcal, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Thanks for that one.



I really think that pic catches some of what you see during the cutscenes with Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

This one

or this one?

[Persephone]

A quote that haunts me whenever my Warden doesn't spare Loghain;

"Without Loghain, there would be no Ferelden to defend!" (Ser Cauthrien)