Zjarcal wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
...and this strange phenomenon of Loghain squee is far more intteresting to observe.
Except I can't get above-stated things out of my head, so the circuits won't fire.
Addai67 wrote...
I could see it, I really could. I did dream about the man, after all- my only DA dream.
Zjarcal wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
As is probably known by and by, I don't.Giggles_Manically wrote...
Here is a question for all the Loghain fans/non fans who like to razz us.
What is the ONE single greatest factor that leads you to spare Loghain?
The reasons I can't are the image in my mind of the soldier at Ostagar pushing his fellow soldier forward- "your kith stood their ground while others fled, no one can do more"; those men faced the horde and stood. He turned his back on them and didn't even engage. Mostly it's the elf in the alienage describing the slavers dragging people out of their beds and parading them through their home to meet Caladrius- "Maker, the little ones crying." The fact that he tries to justify the latter infuriates me and negates any good I might have thought about him. Same deal with him approving after the fact of the Cousland massacre.
In order to spare him, I'd have to believe that he's suddenly turned from all that on a dime and become a meek Grey Warden, and I just don't believe it. To me, my Warden would have to be a blind fool to do so, and I would end up hating my character. I put too much into a playthrough to do that.
I admit that the elf slavery issue does make me think twice on the run where I spare him. He really doesn't show any regret about it.
And uh.... do you want another naked Loggy pic?
It seems unlikely to me that the troops saved at ostagar were more than those lost in the resultant civil war. And this assumes the battle would have been lost, and lost decisively, for which we have little evidence either way.
Actually, if you accept the Fighting at Ostagar is obviously stupid interpretation, then you should blame "the plan will work Your Majesty" Duncan who had the experience to assess the situation pretty well, and the ability to stop the battle easily enough by simply going home - as a grey warden he owes no allegiance to Fereldan's King.
Really? That's strange, I finished the game thrice with Loghain dying at the landsmeet but never got the epilogue telling me that anyone remembers Loghain. Maybe another bugged ending, we already have enough of those.The epilogue suggests only Anora remembers him particularly fondly, if he dies at the landsmeet.
Addai67 wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
...and this strange phenomenon of Loghain squee is far more intteresting to observe.
ROFL!
I could see it, I really could. I did dream about the man, after all- my only DA dream.
A nugget of doubt that he isn't totally evil. We will find that nugget and convert you eventually. 
)
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 septembre 2010 - 11:41 .
Seriously, how does one person being startled at the thought of leaving the King and not attempting what may very well be a suicideal rescue equate to retreating being a bad idea? And Loghain retreating doesn't make him murderous. If you want to cite his later actions as earning him that description then he wouldn't be considered murderous BEFORE they happen.Loghain's wise retreat? We must have different cut-scenes and dialogue, as mine clearly indicate that the murderous traitor withdrew with some objection from his own officers.
Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:47 .
Elhanan wrote...
Loghain's wise retreat? We must have different cut-scenes and dialogue, as mine clearly indicate that the murderous traitor withdrew with some objection from his own officers.
Revisionist history does not seem to be limited to RL....
Persephone wrote...
He has two replies to the Alienage slavery, depending on when you mention it in the Landsmeet. If you mention it and get a noble's reaction saying "Selling elves?" instead of "What's this? There is no slavery in Ferelden!" (Difference between picking "Was selling elves" rather than "You sold Fereldan cititzens" etc Even that noble is less concerned if if you mention that those slaves were elves.) , he will have a very, very torn reaction. The regret is obvious in his voice, if you're willing to listen. (Kudos to Mr. Templeman for his amazing VO) He isn't proud of it ala Howe telling Princess Cous Cous about killing her parents. He seems to suffer doing what he thinks he must do while Howe glories in his depravity.
I hadn't before, but last weekend had a dream about my HNF marrying Loghain in a political marriage. Go figure. I'd much have preferred an Alistair dream but this is what my subconscious gives me. LOLKnightofPhoenix wrote...
People dream about DA? lol How lucky can you be, I've always wanted to dream about Morrigan but alas, no.
Modifié par Addai67, 16 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .
Giggles_Manically wrote...
Since you have to way of knowing if Loghain could have won if he had charge than, you think he should have risked the entire army in a charge that may not habe worked?
Addai67 wrote...
I hadn't before, but last weekend had a dream about my HNF marrying Loghain in a political marriage. Go figure. I'd much have preferred an Alistair dream but this is what my subconscious gives me. LOLKnightofPhoenix wrote...
People dream about DA? lol How lucky can you be, I've always wanted to dream about Morrigan but alas, no.
@Dragonracer, I am a Loghain fan- up until the start of Origins.
"But what about the king..." is hardly an objection to the retreat, and Cauthrien doesn't count as "some of his officers" as she's only one person. Loghain is likely remembering West Hill and the promise he made to Maric. He also knows how unlikely it is that they can save Cailan and isn't willing to risk more men to try. Also, Loghain doesn't have angry villian face in that scene. He actually looks a bit sad there.Elhanan wrote...
Loghain's wise retreat? We must have different cut-scenes and dialogue, as mine clearly indicate that the murderous traitor withdrew with some objection from his own officers.
Revisionist history does not seem to be limited to RL....
Are we really going back to what Alistair thought he knew? He knew exactly as much as your PC did, which is nothing. He fought through the tower with you, lit the beacon, and got attacked and rescued by Flemeth. Both of you were, what, doing some sight-seeing from the top of the tower? The view from the tower might have been enough to see the battlefield, but we don't know that. We know that the king's troops won the previous battles which might have been what Alistair was talking about, but given word from the devs that the horde was larger than they anticipated and what we saw in the cutscene after the beacon was lit, it hardly seem like "winning." Especially considering their winning tactic involved Loghain's flank.Elhanan wrote...
As mentioned elsewhere, Alistair asserts to Flemeth that the King's action with Duncan opposing the Darkspawn were winning ones. And Ser Cauthrian seemed to believe that their flanking attack was the right move initially; reason she balks at the command to retreat. While both could have been incorrect, there is doubt that thr retreat was anything but an act of murder and malice.
Modifié par Monica21, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .
Ooh That is a bingo!Sarah1281 wrote...
And since when is Flemeth a reliable and trustworthy source of information?
He knew he might have to withdraw. Every general knows that. It's been confirmed by Gaider that Loghain didn't make the decision to retreat before the beacon was lit. It's also been confirmed that the horde was larger. Yes, he tried to keep Cailan off the front lines, and yes, Cailan stupidly insisted on doing so.KaiLyn wrote...
Frankly, Loghain's comment at the end of the War Council with Duncan and Cailan indicated to me that he was already up to something - "Yes, your majesty - a grand day for us all." He had already told Cailan not to be up front in the battle so felt justified in his intention to withdraw at that point; he seemed to have that withdraw planned before the battle began and was envisioning his rise to power already.
We discussed it a bit in the Alistair thread. I blame her and re-reading The Calling.DragonRacer13 wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I hadn't before, but last weekend had a dream about my HNF marrying Loghain in a political marriage. Go figure. I'd much have preferred an Alistair dream but this is what my subconscious gives me. LOLKnightofPhoenix wrote...
People dream about DA? lol How lucky can you be, I've always wanted to dream about Morrigan but alas, no.
@Dragonracer, I am a Loghain fan- up until the start of Origins.
*awaits Phaonica's reaction to this*
Keep the link to a previous post where you explain exactly that handy?There really has to be an easier way to tell people these things rather than retyping them every page.
Monica21 wrote...
He knew he might have to withdraw. Every general knows that. It's been confirmed by Gaider that Loghain didn't make the decision to retreat before the beacon was lit. It's also been confirmed that the horde was larger. Yes, he tried to keep Cailan off the front lines, and yes, Cailan stupidly insisted on doing so.KaiLyn wrote...
Frankly, Loghain's comment at the end of the War Council with Duncan and Cailan indicated to me that he was already up to something - "Yes, your majesty - a grand day for us all." He had already told Cailan not to be up front in the battle so felt justified in his intention to withdraw at that point; he seemed to have that withdraw planned before the battle began and was envisioning his rise to power already.
What Loghain had planned for was a possible confrontation with Cailan. His "rise to power" included putting his daughter on the throne, not himself.
There really has to be an easier way to tell people these things rather than retyping them every page.
Giggles_Manically wrote...
Ooh That is a bingo!Sarah1281 wrote...
And since when is Flemeth a reliable and trustworthy source of information?
Yankee23 wrote...
I have been lurking in here for a while and I am going to briefly de-lurk to comment on this. Imo, much of the discussion seems to revolve around Loghain's plans and motives that were not spelled out in game. Many people consider their idea of Loghain from the books and the info stated by devs and Gaider in determining Loghains fate and there are others who are solely going by what they know (or don't know) from the game. Niether of these viewpoints are wrong. I think that is why these discussions seem to constantly circle and never get anywhere. Nobody wants to concede the other's right to either consider the extraneous info or not and then discuss each others choices within the context that they made them.
*goes back to lurking*
Addai67 wrote...
I hadn't before, but last weekend had a dream about my HNF marrying Loghain in a political marriage. Go figure. I'd much have preferred an Alistair dream but this is what my subconscious gives me. LOL
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