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[Dean_the_Young]

A Loghain defender blasting someone for being callous?



Oh, the irony.

[Persephone]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A Loghain defender blasting someone for being callous?

Oh, the irony.

Oh, now this I have to hear. I'm sure you'd be happy to explain why a) Being a Loghain defender is a bad thing and  just how that post added to the discussion, except fanning the flames?

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
None of this is entirely true and you know this. He NEVER says "Oh well, the Maker will forgive me." He says "I will ANSWER to the Maker." Seriously. Not callously. He believes that. He also never desired power. He clearly hates being Regent. The fact that I find this (What you said about powerful men sacrificing innocents) to be sympathetic (if a bit naive, no offense) , then you REALLY must hate people like Caesar, Alexander The Great or Augustus. Given that your b/w view of things condemns these great men without any consideration whatsoever. War always demands sacrifices/victims. As Loghain himself says, war is an ugly business. Any great general (Including three I mentioned) knows that glorious victories in shining harmor and banners of honor only exist in fairy tales.

Sure, whatever.  But when you decide that the weakest, the defenseless, of your society are the ones you're going to sacrifice so that the powerful can prevail, I reserve the right to stop respecting a so-called leader.  A leader defends the weak from the strong, or else why have power or autonomy at all?  When Loghain is selling his people as slaves to the Imperium, how is that different from the Orlesians he claims to hate?

It just irritates me that people think his regret should change anything, or that his horrible experience as a young man should change anything.  It just makes the situation sadder, it doesn't exonerate him in any way.  In fact, if he was a madman or just plain evil it would make what he does more understandable.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
Yeah, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the powerful who claw their way to power on the blood of innocent people and then say "oops, I'm sorry, the Maker will forgive me."

I think Loghain is a tragic figure, just save my sympathy for his victims.

And at this point, I'm wondering why you're still bothering to post in this thread. You're not actually arguing anything anymore and hardly offering a unique perspective. "Loghain sucks because he's evil" is a bit overdone, don't you think?

[Dean_the_Young]

Persephone wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A Loghain defender blasting someone for being callous?

Oh, the irony.

Oh, now this I have to hear. I'm sure you'd be happy to explain why a) Being a Loghain defender is a bad thing and  just how that post added to the discussion, except fanning the flames?

a) How did I imply being a Loghain defender a bad thing? It was an identifier label, not a slanderous attack (or an attack of any sort).

Because the recognition of you, a unapologetic fan of a man who steps all over emotional qualms and the suffering of innocents and guilty alike to get what he believes is right, accusing someone else of being callous for a far lesser extent, is ironic.

A large part of Loghain's character is how he is callous. Callous's do not remove right or wrong, virtue or evil, they just reduce one's weakness to empathy, and Loghain succumbs to emotions all of... once? Twice?

The point is, Loghain is a very callous man, whatever you think of him. To be aghast someone else of the (not so) high crime of being callous... well, hopefully having that pointed out to you should be a bucket of cold watter on the flames.

Unless you have some sodium in there as well. That explodes at water. But I have faith in you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Sure, whatever.  But when you decide that the weakest, the defenseless, of your society are the ones you're going to sacrifice so that the powerful can prevail,

Welcome to reality. The weak are always the first to be sacrificed.
And it's not for the powerful, it's for the rest.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
None of this is entirely true and you know this. He NEVER says "Oh well, the Maker will forgive me." He says "I will ANSWER to the Maker." Seriously. Not callously. He believes that. He also never desired power. He clearly hates being Regent. The fact that I find this (What you said about powerful men sacrificing innocents) to be sympathetic (if a bit naive, no offense) , then you REALLY must hate people like Caesar, Alexander The Great or Augustus. Given that your b/w view of things condemns these great men without any consideration whatsoever. War always demands sacrifices/victims. As Loghain himself says, war is an ugly business. Any great general (Including three I mentioned) knows that glorious victories in shining armor and banners of honor only exist in fairy tales.

Sure, whatever.  But when you decide that the weakest, the defenseless, of your society are the ones you're going to sacrifice so that the powerful can prevail, I reserve the right to stop respecting a so-called leader.  A leader defends the weak from the strong, or else why have power or autonomy at all?  When Loghain is selling his people as slaves to the Imperium, how is that different from the Orlesians he claims to hate?

It just irritates me that people think his regret should change anything, or that his horrible experience as a young man should change anything.  It just makes the situation sadder, it doesn't exonerate him in any way.  In fact, if he was a madman or just plain evil it would make what he does more understandable.

I never attempted to excuse the decision regarding the Alienage. I do not support slavery. At all. Just FYI.

His regret changes everything. It changed the fate of the thief next to Christ on the Cross, to use a famous example. There is a fine line between forgiveness and justification. Redemption and Victory. This isn't about exonerating him. Had he been a madman or just plain evil it wouldn't make it more understandable, just EASIER to hate and condemn him. The fact that he isn't a slimy, evil bastard ala Howe is why he still creates controversy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yeah, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the powerful who claw their way to power on the blood of innocent people and then say "oops, I'm sorry, the Maker will forgive me."

I think Loghain is a tragic figure, just save my sympathy for his victims.

And at this point, I'm wondering why you're still bothering to post in this thread. You're not actually arguing anything anymore and hardly offering a unique perspective. "Loghain sucks because he's evil" is a bit overdone, don't you think?

Let's try to keep this kind of talk to a minimum shall we?
This is a Loghain discussion thread, not a worship / gush thread (and no I am not implying anything). 
Addai is simply questioning why Loghain's regret has to absolve him from what she percieves to be crimes. A valid opinion like any other. 

EDIT: actually,is this a gush thread?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Aeowyn]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
None of this is entirely true and you know this. He NEVER says "Oh well, the Maker will forgive me." He says "I will ANSWER to the Maker." Seriously. Not callously. He believes that. He also never desired power. He clearly hates being Regent. The fact that I find this (What you said about powerful men sacrificing innocents) to be sympathetic (if a bit naive, no offense) , then you REALLY must hate people like Caesar, Alexander The Great or Augustus. Given that your b/w view of things condemns these great men without any consideration whatsoever. War always demands sacrifices/victims. As Loghain himself says, war is an ugly business. Any great general (Including three I mentioned) knows that glorious victories in shining harmor and banners of honor only exist in fairy tales.

Sure, whatever.  But when you decide that the weakest, the defenseless, of your society are the ones you're going to sacrifice so that the powerful can prevail, I reserve the right to stop respecting a so-called leader.  A leader defends the weak from the strong, or else why have power or autonomy at all?  When Loghain is selling his people as slaves to the Imperium, how is that different from the Orlesians he claims to hate?

It just irritates me that people think his regret should change anything, or that his horrible experience as a young man should change anything.  It just makes the situation sadder, it doesn't exonerate him in any way.  In fact, if he was a madman or just plain evil it would make what he does more understandable.

Alright, well I didn't like the fact that he sold the elves as slaves. However, I don't blame him for his choices at Ostagar. He knew the battle was lost, and he knew that they would lose even more men if they continued with the planned tactics. What would be good in that? Ferelden would be even weaker after having lost even more men at Ostagar.
Abandoning the King? Well, he did insist that Cailan not fight in the front lines and Cailan was too stubborn to back down. Abandoning the Wardens? Who's to say that they wouldn't have died even if Loghain had continued with the plan? Duncan might've died then as well. The Grey Warden are there to fight the darkspawn, and they died fighting the darkspawn. I doubt that the battle would have been won even IF Loghain had gone through with the plan.
A General needs to make difficult decisions and he made one. As for the rest, I do think he was deeply guilt ridden over it and it constantly haunted his mind. I also believe that Howe took advantage of this.
But the only things we actually know for sure that Loghain was behind is:
* Leaving the battle at Ostagar.
* Blaming the Grey Wardens for this
* Letting Tevinter slave traders enter the Alienage
* Poisoning Arl Eamon.

The rest, well...I'm blaming Howe for that.

[DragonRacer13]

Oh, my, it's gotten quite hot in here. Simmer down, now...

In an attempt to make peace, I found some fairly inspirational quotes (see below). Several pages back, we were asked what was the main reason we spared Loghain... and mine was, honestly, mercy. Period. Hopefully that is not brutally controversial.

Enjoy happy-time quotes ...


Mahatma Gandhi
If we practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless.
 
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find in each person's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.
 
Carolyn Osiek 
It is not "forgive and forget" as if nothing wrong had ever happened, but "forgive and go forward," building on the mistakes of the past and the energy generated by reconciliation to create a new future.
 
Helen Prejean
In our society, forgiveness is often seen as weakness.  People who forgive those who have hurt them or their family are made to look as if they really don't care about their loved ones.  But forgiveness is tremendous strength.  It is the action of someone who refuses to be consumed by hatred and revenge.
 
William Shakespeare
Though justice be
Thy plea, consider this:
That in the course of justice
none of us should see salvation.
We do pray for mercy,
And that same prayer
doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Persephone]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A Loghain defender blasting someone for being callous?

Oh, the irony.

Oh, now this I have to hear. I'm sure you'd be happy to explain why a) Being a Loghain defender is a bad thing and  just how that post added to the discussion, except fanning the flames?

a) How did I imply being a Loghain defender a bad thing? It was an identifier label, not a slanderous attack (or an attack of any sort).

Because the recognition of you, a unapologetic fan of a man who steps all over emotional qualms and the suffering of innocents and guilty alike to get what he believes is right, accusing someone else of being callous for a far lesser extent, is ironic.

A large part of Loghain's character is how he is callous. Callous's do not remove right or wrong, virtue or evil, they just reduce one's weakness to empathy, and Loghain succumbs to emotions all of... once? Twice?

The point is, Loghain is a very callous man, whatever you think of him. To be aghast someone else of the (not so) high crime of being callous... well, hopefully having that pointed out to you should be a bucket of cold watter on the flames.

Unless you have some sodium in there as well. That explodes at water. But I have faith in you.

a) Look at how you threw the two words together in THAT sentence. Nothing more to say to that.

 Yes, I am a fan of him. But I'll not be called unapologetic. I'm not a fanguuuuuurl. I like a character, virtues and flaws included. I detest b/w judgments. Think me callous for it. I'll proudly be callous then.

c) He is a lot of things. But hardly callous. Want callous? Arl Rendon Howe is your target.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

His regret changes everything. It changed the fate of the thief next to Christ on the Cross, to use a famous example. There is a fine line between forgiveness and justification. Redemption and Victory. This isn't about exonerating him. Had he been a madman or just plain evil it wouldn't make it more understandable, just EASIER to hate and condemn him. The fact that he isn't a slimy, evil bastard ala Howe is why he still creates controversy.

He still tries to justify his actions and never condemns Howe.  Who is worse, the slimy, evil bastard who is what he is because of an inner compulsion, or the one who decides to profit from the slime and use him as an excuse?  "Howe did it, I just went along" gets really old really fast.

But, anyway.  I said my piece.  I was just pointing out to Axe and others that the "lost dialogues" or the Fort Drakon statement isn't the first time you hear Loghain say such things.  You can see in the Denerim cutscenes that he's torn up, he just never does anything about it, like he's caught by his own obsessions.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
a) How did I imply being a Loghain defender a bad thing? It was an identifier label, not a slanderous attack (or an attack of any sort).

Because the recognition of you, a unapologetic fan of a man who steps all over emotional qualms and the suffering of innocents and guilty alike to get what he believes is right, accusing someone else of being callous for a far lesser extent, is ironic.

A large part of Loghain's character is how he is callous. Callous's do not remove right or wrong, virtue or evil, they just reduce one's weakness to empathy, and Loghain succumbs to emotions all of... once? Twice?

The point is, Loghain is a very callous man, whatever you think of him. To be aghast someone else of the (not so) high crime of being callous... well, hopefully having that pointed out to you should be a bucket of cold watter on the flames.

Unless you have some sodium in there as well. That explodes at water. But I have faith in you.

A perception of Loghain as callous is, in my opinion, an incorrect one and a misunderstanding of the word. He does care about the people who died at Ostagar, he does care that Cailan died, and he does care that there's a civil war going on, and he knows he's the cause of it. If you don't see regret or "is this really what I've become" when he agrees to hire Zevran or when he tells Anora that Cailan's death was his own doing, then yes, you can believe that he is callous. I however, will disagree with you.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

His regret changes everything. It changed the fate of the thief next to Christ on the Cross, to use a famous example. There is a fine line between forgiveness and justification. Redemption and Victory. This isn't about exonerating him. Had he been a madman or just plain evil it wouldn't make it more understandable, just EASIER to hate and condemn him. The fact that he isn't a slimy, evil bastard ala Howe is why he still creates controversy.

He still tries to justify his actions and never condemns Howe.  Who is worse, the slimy, evil bastard who is what he is because of an inner compulsion, or the one who decides to profit from the slime and use him as an excuse?  "Howe did it, I just went along" gets really old really fast.

But, anyway.  I said my piece.  I was just pointing out to Axe and others that the "lost dialogues" or the Fort Drakon statement isn't the first time you hear Loghain say such things.  You can see in the Denerim cutscenes that he's torn up, he just never does anything about it, like he's caught by his own obsessions.

Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yeah, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the powerful who claw their way to power on the blood of innocent people and then say "oops, I'm sorry, the Maker will forgive me."

I think Loghain is a tragic figure, just save my sympathy for his victims.

And at this point, I'm wondering why you're still bothering to post in this thread. You're not actually arguing anything anymore and hardly offering a unique perspective. "Loghain sucks because he's evil" is a bit overdone, don't you think?

Let's try to keep this kind of talk to a minimum shall we?
This is a Loghain discussion thread, not a worship / gush thread (and no I am not implying anything). 
Addai is simply questioning why Loghain's regret has to absolve him from what she percieves to be crimes. A valid opinion like any other. 

EDIT: actually,is this a gush thread?

I think it's a fair question. Jumping into a thread to vomit a worn out opinion is hardly worth anyone's time. Addai doesn't like Loghain. Shocker. What's the point in continuing to tell us all how much she doesn't like him?

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yeah, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the powerful who claw their way to power on the blood of innocent people and then say "oops, I'm sorry, the Maker will forgive me."

I think Loghain is a tragic figure, just save my sympathy for his victims.

And at this point, I'm wondering why you're still bothering to post in this thread. You're not actually arguing anything anymore and hardly offering a unique perspective. "Loghain sucks because he's evil" is a bit overdone, don't you think?

Let's try to keep this kind of talk to a minimum shall we?
This is a Loghain discussion thread, not a worship / gush thread (and no I am not implying anything). 
Addai is simply questioning why Loghain's regret has to absolve him from what she percieves to be crimes. A valid opinion like any other. 

EDIT: actually,is this a gush thread?

I think it's a fair question. Jumping into a thread to vomit a worn out opinion is hardly worth anyone's time. Addai doesn't like Loghain. Shocker. What's the point in continuing to tell us all how much she doesn't like him?

It keeps the thread spicy and full of flavor! 

[Monica21]

Persephone wrote...
Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

Well, Loghain actually has reasons for his actions, and good ones at that. None of them have anything to do with him, unlike Howe who apparently "deserved more."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
I think it's a fair question. Jumping into a thread to vomit a worn out opinion is hardly worth anyone's time. Addai doesn't like Loghain. Shocker. What's the point in continuing to tell us all how much she doesn't like him?

Now you know what I had to deal with for months  (not Addai specifically)

I am just trying to keep the peace. Loghain's polarising effect is what makes him so interesting, and hence why he is truly one of the deepest characters in any game I've played.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

Well, Loghain actually has reasons for his actions, and good ones at that. None of them have anything to do with him, unlike Howe who apparently "deserved more."

He does. Practical ones. Ruthless ones. But he admits that he is tormented by some of his decisions. And you can see it too. And I have to say.... To have that proud, powerful, strong man kneeling at my feet....accepting defeat and comparing me to MARIC (Greatest compliment Loghain can pay you. Ever) ......

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

Never said Howe can be excused, just that the one who gives him political cover is not any better and is actually worse IMO.  It's really Anora (and Loghain supporters ) who try to use Howe for an excuse, though Loghain does pretend he doesn't know Howe was torturing people- which I find hard to believe.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

I wouldn't want him to beg or grovel- eww.  His dignity is a good point, but it just doesn't change anything he's done.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
I think it's a fair question. Jumping into a thread to vomit a worn out opinion is hardly worth anyone's time. Addai doesn't like Loghain. Shocker. What's the point in continuing to tell us all how much she doesn't like him?

Now you know what I had to deal with for months  (not Addai specifically)

I am just trying to keep the peace. Loghain's polarising effect is what makes him so interesting, and hence why he is truly one of the deepest characters in any game I've played.

He does have a polarising effect and I think that's partly what makes him so interesting. There is a difference between having a thoughtful opinion and being downright rude though, and any chance for an interesting debate is gone when someone whips out the "HE'S EVIL" card.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...
I think it's a fair question. Jumping into a thread to vomit a worn out opinion is hardly worth anyone's time. Addai doesn't like Loghain. Shocker. What's the point in continuing to tell us all how much she doesn't like him?

"Vomit"?  Well, that's colorful.

My response was actually to point out that you do see Loghain regret in-game, before sparing him (or not sparing him).  I take it you skipped over that part and went right to the "vomit."

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

Never said Howe can be excused, just that the one who gives him political cover is not any better and is actually worse IMO.  It's really Anora (and Loghain supporters ) who try to use Howe for an excuse, though Loghain does pretend he doesn't know Howe was torturing people- which I find hard to believe.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

I wouldn't want him to beg or grovel- eww.  His dignity is a good point, but it just doesn't change anything he's done.

Howe IS part of the dilemma. He IS a bad influence and a leech. Anora also calls him that but she doesn't blame the leech for everything. Where does he "pretend" he knows nothing about torture in Fort Drakon? You mean the torture in Howe's palace in Denerim? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Never said Howe can be excused, just that the one who gives him political cover is not any better and is actually worse IMO.  It's really Anora (and Loghain supporters ) who try to use Howe for an excuse, though Loghain does pretend he doesn't know Howe was torturing people- which I find hard to believe.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

I wouldn't want him to beg or grovel- eww.  His dignity is a good point, but it just doesn't change anything he's done.

It's not an excuse, it's a political reality. Howe at that point made himself the most powerful lord after Loghain basically (Amaranthine, Denerim and Highever under his control). Loghain could not act against him without losing a very essential ally and truning him into a dangerous enemy. Confronting Howe during the civil war was not a sensible thing to do. 

You will of course say that what I am saying are nothing but excuses. I say that politics is complicated like that. 

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
Never said Howe can be excused, just that the one who gives him political cover is not any better and is actually worse IMO.  It's really Anora (and Loghain supporters ) who try to use Howe for an excuse, though Loghain does pretend he doesn't know Howe was torturing people- which I find hard to believe.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

I wouldn't want him to beg or grovel- eww.  His dignity is a good point, but it just doesn't change anything he's done.

How would he have known that Howe was torturing people? Does he seem like the type to head over to the Arl of Denerim's estate for drinks? Or even allow himself to set foot in the dungeon? Does Howe seem like the type to tell him that he's torturing people? He can't stop what he doesn't know about.