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[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
Where does he "pretend" he knows nothing about torture in Fort Drakon? You mean the torture in Howe's palace in Denerim? 

If you bring up Howe torturing people in the LM, Loghain starts talking about Howe being brought before a seneschal and tries to turn it all back on the Warden for killing him- irony abounds.  Which implies he's trying to argue that he didn't know about Howe's activities.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
I think it's a fair question. Jumping into a thread to vomit a worn out opinion is hardly worth anyone's time. Addai doesn't like Loghain. Shocker. What's the point in continuing to tell us all how much she doesn't like him?

"Vomit"?  Well, that's colorful.

My response was actually to point out that you do see Loghain regret in-game, before sparing him (or not sparing him).  I take it you skipped over that part and went right to the "vomit."

And my response was to you saying "too little too late, pal." I said that you don't have to forgive someone to show them mercy. Personally, I think it's never too late to show mercy or forgiveness.

And for the record, I've never taken issue with someone's reasons for killing Loghain at the Landsmeet. I certainly don't think he deserves it but I also understand why someone would, if only because I've done it. I simply think that when you're reasoning is entirely black and white, you've shown that not only have you not thought about the character, but that you're arguing against a character that you have no wish to think about.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Where does he "pretend" he knows nothing about torture in Fort Drakon? You mean the torture in Howe's palace in Denerim? 

If you bring up Howe torturing people in the LM, Loghain starts talking about Howe being brought before a seneschal and tries to turn it all back on the Warden for killing him- irony abounds.  Which implies he's trying to argue that he didn't know about Howe's activities.

Makes sense. Since those things happened at Howe's estate, in his private dungeon. NOT at Fort Drakon.

[jpdipity]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

And as others just stated, the Redeemer ending truly shows that Loghain is not a "chaotic evil" guy but regrets a lot of his deeds and even apologizes to the warden. Every Loghain hate should have played the Redemeer ending once and get every possible line of dialogue when talking to him in the camp.

It's easy to despise Loghain, but it's a lot harder to understand him - and most people take the easy way.

I have not done the Redeemer ending, but I have viewed it on YouTube.  I actually did not get the impression that he regretted his decisions at all.  Throughout the entire game, I did believe that the choices Loghain makes weigh heavily on him and he may even be troubled by them, but I never got the impression that he actually regretted the decisions he made from the Redeemer ending nor by anything I've seen in post-Landsmeet dialogue (some viewed and some read). 

On the other hand, every decision Loghain ever makes seems to weigh on him - he is always in a brooding state of mind even in the books.

I don't think lack of understanding is why people "despise" Loghain nor do I think they are taking the "easy" way necessarily.  Maybe they just don't agree with his methods.  Others will draw their conclusions from Loghain's actions and not his words. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
And for the record, I've never taken issue with someone's reasons for killing Loghain at the Landsmeet. I certainly don't think he deserves it but I also understand why someone would, if only because I've done it. I simply think that when you're reasoning is entirely black and white, you've shown that not only have you not thought about the character, but that you're arguing against a character that you have no wish to think about.

There has been worse comments in the past about this, namely how no one told Anora to stay makes it ok to kill a father in front of his daughter, because you know, no one told her to stay and watch. 
Not saying names, they know who they are. 

You're right, comments like that makes it less interesting to debate and can be provocative.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[wickedgoodreed]

With all of the titles he accrues, I got the distinct impression that Howe was blackmailing Loghain. Howe is crafty enough to keep Iminric locked away in his own private dungeon rather than kill him to get rid of the evidence after all. I'm sure he'd find a not-so-subtle way to lord that over Loghain. That way if Loghain did condemn Howe, then Howe would simply reveal his hand in poisoning Arl Eamon. The nobles would revolt and become even more consumed in civil war and even less prepared to face the Blight. His hands are tied. It's still his own fault that he was in the position to begin with, but I don't hold it against him for not condemning Howe.  

[Persephone]

jpdipity wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

And as others just stated, the Redeemer ending truly shows that Loghain is not a "chaotic evil" guy but regrets a lot of his deeds and even apologizes to the warden. Every Loghain hate should have played the Redemeer ending once and get every possible line of dialogue when talking to him in the camp.

It's easy to despise Loghain, but it's a lot harder to understand him - and most people take the easy way.

I have not done the Redeemer ending, but I have viewed it on YouTube.  I actually did not get the impression that he regretted his decisions at all. 

"Please, I have done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right!" (Loghain, on top of Fort Drakon) He then sacrifices his life AND soul. If that is not regret, I know not what regret is.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Never said Howe can be excused, just that the one who gives him political cover is not any better and is actually worse IMO.  It's really Anora (and Loghain supporters ) who try to use Howe for an excuse, though Loghain does pretend he doesn't know Howe was torturing people- which I find hard to believe.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

I wouldn't want him to beg or grovel- eww.  His dignity is a good point, but it just doesn't change anything he's done.

How would he have known that Howe was torturing people? Does he seem like the type to head over to the Arl of Denerim's estate for drinks? Or even allow himself to set foot in the dungeon? Does Howe seem like the type to tell him that he's torturing people? He can't stop what he doesn't know about.

He might not know about Howe's private torture sessions at his estate, but surely must have known about the ones at Fort Drakon- which we see in the pan in Captured.  Bann Sighard's son tells you he was taken because he "knew too much" about Ostagar.  In the gossip we hear that Loghain is hanging people as a warning to others about rebellion.   Loghain himself threatens you that it's not safe to "speak treason" about him.  This is a systematic attempt at rooting out political dissent, not simply a sick hobby of Howe's.  Or are you trying to tell me he didn't know Riordan was being tortured to get information about the Grey Wardens?

If he didn't know, it was a case of "I don't want to know."  Sort of like his "just get it done" about Zevran killing the Wardens.  Which doesn't excuse him in any way, either.

And if you think this is a character that I've not thought about, well.  I'd say you're not reading my posts on the subject.

[Persephone]

MariSkep wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

Well, Loghain actually has reasons for his actions, and good ones at that. None of them have anything to do with him, unlike Howe who apparently "deserved more."

He does. Practical ones. Ruthless ones. But he admits that he is tormented by some of his decisions. And you can see it too. And I have to say.... To have that proud, powerful, strong man kneeling at my feet....accepting defeat and comparing me to MARIC (Greatest compliment Loghain can pay you. Ever) ......

How sad and pathetic is that? Everything the man sees is thru this dogmatic (really can't think of any other way to describe it) filter. Makes me wonder if he doesn't have borderline personality disorder. 

No more sad and pathetic than reducing a complex character on a personality disorder or pure evil.

[phaonica]

If Loghain is going to lie and make excuses at the Landsmeet, I don't fault him for that. After all, the Warden can get votes via assassination chains (which I haven't done so maybe it's not that big of a deal), or freeing a rapist who can give you a vote, lying to Anora. It's politics. And the Fate of Ferelden. Do what you have to do to win.

As far as him not condemning Howe, just because Loghain doesn't specifically list out everything he's done and say what he does or does not regret, he does in general seem to recognize right from wrong, and if he has the capacity to regret what he's done wrong, why might that not also extend to his dealings with Howe?

I actually liked a Loghain better that didn't have so much "regrets". Maybe the definition I have of that word is too specific.

Modifié par phaonica, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Never said Howe can be excused, just that the one who gives him political cover is not any better and is actually worse IMO.  It's really Anora (and Loghain supporters ) who try to use Howe for an excuse, though Loghain does pretend he doesn't know Howe was torturing people- which I find hard to believe.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.

I wouldn't want him to beg or grovel- eww.  His dignity is a good point, but it just doesn't change anything he's done.

How would he have known that Howe was torturing people? Does he seem like the type to head over to the Arl of Denerim's estate for drinks? Or even allow himself to set foot in the dungeon? Does Howe seem like the type to tell him that he's torturing people? He can't stop what he doesn't know about.

He might not know about Howe's private torture sessions at his estate, but surely must have known about the ones at Fort Drakon- which we see in the pan in Captured.  Bann Sighard's son tells you he was taken because he "knew too much" about Ostagar.  In the gossip we hear that Loghain is hanging people as a warning to others about rebellion.   Loghain himself threatens you that it's not safe to "speak treason" about him.  This is a systematic attempt at rooting out political dissent, not simply a sick hobby of Howe's.  Or are you trying to tell me he didn't know Riordan was being tortured to get information about the Grey Wardens?

If he didn't know, it was a case of "I don't want to know."  Sort of like his "just get it done" about Zevran killing the Wardens.  Which doesn't excuse him in any way, either.

And if you think this is a character that I've not thought about, well.  I'd say you're not reading my posts on the subject.

At the Landsmeet we are talking about the torture in Howe's dungeon. (Hence the quest being there) Please don't accuse us of wanting to "excuse" him. This isn't what this is about. The lines of good and evil blur in his case. In my opinion, anyway.

[Persephone]

MariSkep wrote...

Persephone wrote...

MariSkep wrote...
How sad and pathetic is that? Everything the man sees is thru this dogmatic (really can't think of any other way to describe it) filter. Makes me wonder if he doesn't have borderline personality disorder. 

No more sad and pathetic than reducing a complex character on a personality disorder or pure evil.

He fits the bill perfectly and I never called him pure evil. (don't really believe in 'evil') Loghain's black and white thinking, hatred of Orlais, idolatry (not sure if that's the right word) of Ferelden sound a lot like borderline personality disorder to me.

I'd say 'sorry if it came across as me devaluing the character' but honestly I don't care.

Read "The Stolen Throne" to understand these things. Or not. I don't care either.

[Giggles_Manically]

MariSkep wrote...

Persephone wrote...

MariSkep wrote...
How sad and pathetic is that? Everything the man sees is thru this dogmatic (really can't think of any other way to describe it) filter. Makes me wonder if he doesn't have borderline personality disorder. 

No more sad and pathetic than reducing a complex character on a personality disorder or pure evil.

He fits the bill perfectly and I never called him pure evil. (don't really believe in 'evil') Loghain's black and white thinking, hatred of Orlais, idolatry (not sure if that's the right word) of Ferelden sound a lot like borderline personality disorder to me.

I'd say 'sorry if it came across as me devaluing the character' but honestly I don't care.

Two things:
See how you would feel about another country if they made you  watch their soldiers rape and kill your mother.

Idolatry is the wrong word to use, since it implies the worship of an object or image as a representation of the divine, although only in the Abrahamic religions.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
I actually liked a Loghain better that didn't have so much "regrets". Maybe the definition I have of that word is too specific.

Same. There is a difference between feeling heavy and sad because of what you are doing, and feeling regret. I think Loghain is leaning more towards the former.

[CalJones]

To be fair, we don't really know how much he knew about what Howe was up to. I would like to think that he wasn't entirely aware - after all, he does look disgusted when Howe hires Zevran, so torturing nobles and templars for fun is unlikely to be his style. Going by Nathaniel and Delilah's dialogue in Awakening, Howe had started to indulge his darker side and had become increasingly depraved. However, I'd be surprised if Loghain was unaware of who Howe had in his dungeon. More likely, he'd view imprisonment and interrogation as a distasteful necessity rather than a fun thing to do on an evening.

Given that Howe was also the Arl of Denerim and was the one behind the purge of the Alienage, I would be surprised if he wasn't the one to suggest selling the elves. He probably saw it as a fine way to get rid of the ones most likely to cause trouble, whilst making some money. But again, Loghain is complicit because he's aware of the plan. Again, I expect it's something he viewed as distasteful, but necessary - the elves were rioting, there was plague, so why not make the best of a bad situation?

No, Loghain is certainly not innocent. But I don't place him in the same category as Howe, and whilst I don't approve of a lot of the things he did, I can see why he did them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...
I'd say 'sorry if it came across as me devaluing the character' but honestly I don't care.

Then clearly, this thread is not for you.

[Persephone]

MariSkep wrote...

Persephone wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Persephone wrote...

MariSkep wrote...
How sad and pathetic is that? Everything the man sees is thru this dogmatic (really can't think of any other way to describe it) filter. Makes me wonder if he doesn't have borderline personality disorder. 

No more sad and pathetic than reducing a complex character on a personality disorder or pure evil.

He fits the bill perfectly and I never called him pure evil. (don't really believe in 'evil') Loghain's black and white thinking, hatred of Orlais, idolatry (not sure if that's the right word) of Ferelden sound a lot like borderline personality disorder to me.

I'd say 'sorry if it came across as me devaluing the character' but honestly I don't care.

Read "The Stolen Throne" to understand these things. Or not. I don't care either.

And what exactly don't I understand?

His hatred of Orlais. His love for Ferelden,....read it. Read how it was MARIC himself who asked him never to place the life of a single man, no matter who, above Ferelden.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Of course he will give reasons for his actions. Howe can be excused by an inner compulsion? SERIOUSLY? And he never says "Howe is responsible, I just tagged along." What should he do, once recruited? Beg? Grovel? Plead? Like that wouldn't be taken as faking it. 

Well, Loghain actually has reasons for his actions, and good ones at that. None of them have anything to do with him, unlike Howe who apparently "deserved more."

He does. Practical ones. Ruthless ones. But he admits that he is tormented by some of his decisions. And you can see it too. And I have to say.... To have that proud, powerful, strong man kneeling at my feet....accepting defeat and comparing me to MARIC (Greatest compliment Loghain can pay you. Ever) ......

How sad and pathetic is that? Everything the man sees is thru this dogmatic (really can't think of any other way to describe it) filter. Makes me wonder if he doesn't have borderline personality disorder. 

No more sad and pathetic than reducing a complex character on a personality disorder or pure evil.

I'll make you a deal- you and Monica quit saying that we're dismissing Loghain as EVIL when both this poster and I have made actual character analysis- here he/she is talking about Loghain's anti-Orlesian dogma and his mania (which I would rather put down as PTSD from seeing his mother raped and killed)- and in return I won't say you're trying to excuse him.  Which I never did say, but I'll make sure to continue not saying it.  LOL

[Monica21]

CalJones wrote...

To be fair, we don't really know how much he knew about what Howe was up to. I would like to think that he wasn't entirely aware - after all, he does look disgusted when Howe hires Zevran, so torturing nobles and templars for fun is unlikely to be his style. Going by Nathaniel and Delilah's dialogue in Awakening, Howe had started to indulge his darker side and had become increasingly depraved. However, I'd be surprised if Loghain was unaware of who Howe had in his dungeon. More likely, he'd view imprisonment and interrogation as a distasteful necessity rather than a fun thing to do on an evening.
Given that Howe was also the Arl of Denerim and was the one behind the purge of the Alienage, I would be surprised if he wasn't the one to suggest selling the elves. He probably saw it as a fine way to get rid of the ones most likely to cause trouble, whilst making some money. But again, Loghain is complicit because he's aware of the plan. Again, I expect it's something he viewed as distasteful, but necessary - the elves were rioting, there was plague, so why not make the best of a bad situation?
No, Loghain is certainly not innocent. But I don't place him in the same category as Howe, and whilst I don't approve of a lot of the things he did, I can see why he did them.

Racks in medieval times? Check
Jailers torturing prisoners in medieval times? Check
Hanging people/putting heads on pikes as warning during a Civil War? Check.

Everything that happened should not be considered shocking to anyone who's had even a passing interest in history. Sherman burned his way through Georgia and salted the fields as he went. You do what you have to do to win. That's war. It's not pretty, it's far from glorious, and it's not a shining example of humanity. It is what it is. You try to win.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I actually liked a Loghain better that didn't have so much "regrets". Maybe the definition I have of that word is too specific.

Same. There is a difference between feeling heavy and sad because of what you are doing, and feeling regret. I think Loghain is leaning more towards the former.

Exactly. I rather don't like hearing Loghain go on about regretting things (like in the RtO dialog that came up recently). If it "seemed necessary at the time" what's to regret?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I actually liked a Loghain better that didn't have so much "regrets". Maybe the definition I have of that word is too specific.

Same. There is a difference between feeling heavy and sad because of what you are doing, and feeling regret. I think Loghain is leaning more towards the former.

Exactly. I rather don't like hearing Loghain go on about regretting things (like in the RtO dialog that came up recently). If it "seemed necessary at the time" what's to regret?

Good thing that never was in the game. I like him like he is in RtO. He made a hard choice and he doesn't regret it and that's fine by me.

[Persephone]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I actually liked a Loghain better that didn't have so much "regrets". Maybe the definition I have of that word is too specific.

Same. There is a difference between feeling heavy and sad because of what you are doing, and feeling regret. I think Loghain is leaning more towards the former.

Exactly. I rather don't like hearing Loghain go on about regretting things (like in the RtO dialog that came up recently). If it "seemed necessary at the time" what's to regret?

I think that dialogue was particularly well done. It's the most emotional he ever gets. And at the sight of Cailan's body....Maric's son.........his beloved's son too.....it would be understandable.