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[DragonRacer13]

phaonica wrote...


For such a deep character, do we have so little to say about him (other than the usual debates)?

We said HE was deep... not necessarily that any of us are!

I'll try and ponder up some stuff for you.

(Psst... and you also have mail.  Feel free to e-slap me if I'm being a pest. lol  )


(Edited for clarity because apparantly combining "stuff" and "age" into a non-word gets half of it bleeped out because of an unfortunate word it forms right in the middle...  )

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 24 août 2010 - 10:47 .

[Sarah1281]

I may not really have anything profound to say but I do have 'Maric's Blade' by MaevesChild:

With any luck, he'll end the Blight with it.

[Costin_Razvan]

I didn't know about Two Steps From Hell until you introduced me. Now I know they are awesome.

Check out my latest trailer ( it's on my youtube channel page ) then. I bet you will love it for the music it uses.

I'm in the middle of writing dialog for if/when you take Loghain with you to do the Paragon of her Kind, Broken Circle, and Nature of the Beast questlines. I have an idea of when and where and how Loghain might comment on these quests, but what do you all think? What do you think he'd comment on in these areas, and who do you think he'd side with?

For Paragon of her King I bet he would really recommend Bhelen. Perhaps even offer a comment, once you enter the city and see Bhelen and Harrowmont argue.



For the Anvil decision. I think he would really be for preserving the Anvil, reminded you that many lives hang in the balance and that the dwarves need it in the future. But you could persuade him otherwise by telling him that Branka is mad.



Regarding the Broken Circle. I think he would have a conversation with Gregoir when you first enter the tower, with Gregoir blaming him for the trouble that had occurred. I think he would initaly be for saving the mages but when you meet Cullen he would be in favor of siding with the Templars, as you need a fighting force and the mages are not capable of providing one.



For Nature of the Beast: Kill the Dalish. He is a man who thinks first and foremost with cold hard logic, and cold hard logic dictates that you cannot trust Zathrian to honor his promise at all ( and remember, Zathrian is the one who says he would pledge the elves in the battle ), not that you can trust the Werewolves to help but the Werewolves are far stronger then the elves and would be most grateful for someone lifting their curse.

[Sarah1281]

For Nature of the Beast: Kill the Dalish. He is a man who thinks first and foremost with cold hard logic, and cold hard logic dictates that you cannot trust Zathrian to honor his promise at all ( and remember, Zathrian is the one who says he would pledge the elves in the battle ), not that you can trust the Werewolves to help but the Werewolves are far stronger then the elves and would be most grateful for someone lifting their curse.

But you're NOT helping them lift their curse. You're helping them get some vengeance. If it's a question of gratitude, wouldn't the Dalish be more grateful for either killing/curing the werewolves and thus saving their hunters and stopping the attacks than the werewolves would be because you helped them kill some elves?

[Dean_the_Young]

It would also buy sympathy from the other Dalish clans, whereas any revelation of the truth about the werewolves could inspire revenge attacks.

[Wolverfrog]

I killed Loghain because although he's done many great things in the past, the crimes he committed were inexcusable. I was nearly in tears when he said goodbye to Anora, but I killed him anyway.



I hate myself for it, but it was the best thing to do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

For Nature of the Beast: Kill the Dalish. He is a man who thinks first and foremost with cold hard logic, and cold hard logic dictates that you cannot trust Zathrian to honor his promise at all ( and remember, Zathrian is the one who says he would pledge the elves in the battle ), not that you can trust the Werewolves to help but the Werewolves are far stronger then the elves and would be most grateful for someone lifting their curse.

But you're NOT helping them lift their curse. You're helping them get some vengeance. If it's a question of gratitude, wouldn't the Dalish be more grateful for either killing/curing the werewolves and thus saving their hunters and stopping the attacks than the werewolves would be because you helped them kill some elves?

Not to mention that lifting the curse results in Zathrian's death, so trusting him is not really an issue. Granted, we may not have known that he would have died before deciding. But I don't think Loghain would trust werewolves more than elves. He is logical, but his lack of trust is also an essential part of his personality. 

Besides, Loghain might remember the days when he led the Night Elves. The Dalish are experienced archers, and Loghain sure knew how to use them against the Orlesians.  

But overall, I think he would be mostly indifferent to al choices (many companions are like that when faced with some decisions). I don't think he would particurarily approve or disaprove of any decision in that particular quest.

[phaonica]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It would also buy sympathy from the other Dalish clans, whereas any revelation of the truth about the werewolves could inspire revenge attacks.

Yeah, I was thinking along these lines, really. That Loghain would recognize that attacking the Dalish could be a politically bad move.

[phaonica]

DragonRacer13 wrote...
( Psst... and you also have mail.  Feel free to e-slap me if I'm being a pest. lol  )

Squee! I'll get to that right away. Damn you, schoolwork, for distracting me from the finer things in life.

[Costin_Razvan]

Not to mention that lifting the curse results in Zathrian's death, so trusting him is not really an issue. Granted, we may not have known that he would have died before deciding

And who is to say the elves won't try and avenge their leader? Who is to say that they didn't know all along what he did and went along with it?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It would also buy sympathy from the other Dalish clans, whereas any revelation of the truth about the werewolves could inspire revenge attacks.

 

Wrong actually. That Dalish hunter you meet in the forest after you slaughter the Dalish/ cure Werewolves/Slaughter Wolves can made to see that they deserved their fate....granted it IS a persuade check but if someone who lost close friends and family be made to feel like that then I do not worry in the slightest about the other clans.

And secondly who would tell the clans of what happened save that hunter ( who attacks you if you fail the persuade check )? No elf survived that did not become a werewolf, and no one else knows save the Warden and his party. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 12:30 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Dosent some random Dalish, in a random encounter try to kill you about Zathrian dying, or ending the curse?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Not to mention that lifting the curse results in Zathrian's death, so trusting him is not really an issue. Granted, we may not have known that he would have died before deciding

And who is to say the elves won't try and avenge their leader? Who is to say that they didn't know all along what he did and went along with it?

Possible, but unlikely as Zathrian had them believe that he attained elven immortality. Certainly it's much more useful for him to tell them that and give them a symbol of hope, than tell them what he did.
Also, a lot of his people are sick of the same curse that he created and could stop. So why would they go along with it? 

Not saying it's impossible that the Dalish are that loyal to Zathrian despite everything, but I personally think it's a stretch. Trusting werewolves and a fade spirit (that also lied to you) just seems to me to be even riskier or at least equally risky.

Furthermore, Loghain also plans for the future and not just ending the Blight, for better or worse (hence his refusal of Orlesian reinforcements). Do you think he is going to like having werewolves roam Ferelden (and they have a bad history there) and possibly infecting his compatriots? I am not so sure about that.

BTW, your trailer was niice and you're right the song is excellent.
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 12:33 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Do you think he is going to like having werewolves roam Ferelden (and they have a bad history there) and possibly infecting his compatriots? I am not so sure about that.

The werewolves can be dealt with it after the Blight, but for the battle there is a need of a strong force for a Pitched battle, and the Werewolves can provide such a force while the elves cannot. There is a difference between Orlesians ( whom he is certain will try and take over Fereldan ) and Werewolves ( who do not seem to have this intent at the time ).



The reason the Night Elves were as good as they are is because they fought Guerrilla Style, there is no mention of them fighting Pitched battles.

BTW, your trailer was niice and you're right the song is excellent.

Thanks! Prologue for fanfiction is up on FF.net ( http://tiny.cc/mdwz9 )

[Giggles_Manically]

Whilst the Werewolves can do some serious DPS, they have a glass jaw.



Save the Dalish for the final fight and watch the AD health get wittled away pretty fast even when out of range.



More to the point I think Loghain would not like werewolves on his side, since they would view anything moving as a snack. Kinda hard to fight when you have a giant crazy dog-man deciding to kill you or the darkspawn at the wrong moment.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dosent some random Dalish, in a random encounter try to kill you about Zathrian dying, or ending the curse?

She says she lost her husband, I think, but you can remind her of what vengeance led Zathrian to do and she backs down (in the case of ending the curse, of course).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The werewolves can be dealt with it after the Blight, but for the battle there is a need of a strong force for a Pitched battle, and the Werewolves can provide such a force while the elves cannot. There is a difference between Orlesians ( whom he is certain will try and take over Fereldan ) and Werewolves ( who do not seem to have this intent at the time ).

But werewolves have a history of devastating the land and spreading their curse. Why wouldn't they do it again?

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The reason the Night Elves were as good as they are is because they fought Guerrilla Style, there is no mention of them fighting Pitched battles.

Well at the battle of Denerim, I actually thought that having 50 archers was better than having 16 werewolves, but igoring that. Elves could provide more than just guerilla. They would provide ranged support, which is always needed imo, and reconaissance. And also numbers (from the other clans, though I wish the game shwoed them because yea, we don't even know if there are clans nearby). Also, the Night Elves were with Loghain throughout the rebellion, And I am sure he fought pitched battles other than the River Dane, so them fighting in those battles is likely. I might have to check up on that later though. Could anyone confirm? 

[DragonRacer13]

First, random sidenote... anyone else having to constantly re-login lately? I have a new laptop now (may actually be able to go purchase DA:O for PC once Phaonica's mod is finished... otherwise, I'll keep playing my PS3 version  ), but I was able to stay logged in "forever" until today. Now it's like I have to re-login every single time I open a thread in a new tab. *scratches head*

As for Loghain's decisions, having pondered it over dinner, I think he'd:

1. Be for helping the Dalish. Most of the reasons why have already been brought up, but for me a) the Night Elves were put to good use by him, so he could re-create that and I don't think he'd trust Swiftrunner and the other werewolves for a bleedin' second.

2. Agree that he'd be for Bhelen and also for preserving the Anvil. Yes, Branka has definitely flown over the cuckoo's nest, but having golems to fight the Blight is a strong favor in that direction. Plus, he knows how well golems can factor into a fight... he saw what just ONE could do all throughout the Stolen Throne, after all. Now picture a whole army of them.

3. I say he'd be for the mages in the Circle Tower. After all, he was "courting" them before Uldred decided to join Branka in flying over the cuckoo's nest. And it would set up such a LOVELY "reunion" when you meet Wynne in the tower with her favoritest person in the world in tow.  Shoot, just imagine the possible party banter between him and Wynne throughout that whole escapade... what little we have at RtO is freakin' comedy gold.

[DragonRacer13]

phaonica wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...
( Psst... and you also have mail.  Feel free to e-slap me if I'm being a pest. lol  )

Squee! I'll get to that right away. Damn you, schoolwork, for distracting me from the finer things in life.

Hee hee!

I miss the fun of college, but don't miss the homework, that's for sure. My "fun" writing took a 4-year hiatus because of that.

While working a 9-5 is grinding (and occasionally utterly soul-sucking some days), it's nice to come home, take care of a few house responsibilities, and then do whatever the heck you want. And I have weekends again! Hooray!  

[Costin_Razvan]

But werewolves have a history of devastating the land and spreading their curse. Why wouldn't they do it again?

I think it could be argued these werewolves are different from the rest.

Well at the battle of Denerim, I actually thought that having 50 archers was better than having 16 werewolves, but igoring that. Elves could provide more than just guerilla. They would provide ranged support, which is always needed imo, and reconaissance. And also numbers (from the other clans, though I wish the game shwoed them because yea, we don't even know if there are clans nearby). Also, the Night Elves were with Loghain throughout the rebellion, And I am sure he fought pitched battles other than the River Dane, so them fighting in those battles is likely. I might have to check up on that later though. Could anyone confirm?

And I think that in 3 of the 5 combat situations, the werewolves are superior to the elves at Denerim.



Elves could provide ranged support and reconsecrating, but how useful are those really?



Ranged support is all nice and fine, but beyond the opening of a Pitched Battle on Open Ground, ranged support does not play a major role. The Cavalry and Infantry win the battles, not the archers.



The most famous example in Medieval History of archers supposedly winning a battle was Agincourt, but Agincourt was not won because the Archers slaughtered the French with their bows, but their daggers, mallets and swords due to the mud which had made it hard for French Knights to move.



In close proximity, Archers CANNOT use their bows, they have to fire over friendly units so they don't hit their own men, this make wildly inaccurate and almost useless. If they own a hill they can still fire quite accurately. However in Denerim you fight in a burning city with narrow streets, in such a tight place Archers would be all but useless



There are already scouts in Fereldan, and mages can apparently use their magic to see in the distance, and having scouts is useless compared to having more useful fighters in the actual battle.

[Giggles_Manically]

Minus the fact that werewolves die quicker then any other allies outside of mages, they can only do DPS.



The Dalish simply maul anything in game in the final battle for me.



Seriously though Loghain is not the kinda guy who would want werewolves running around, because they may not want to eat you today, and they do attack people in the epilouge.



Also the elves agree to follow the treaty if you succeded in the quest, and if you say they may not live up to it, then you could argue the same against the mages, and dwarves.



Tried the Werewolves vs. the Legion of the Dead, and the Legion is way better then them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dalish elves are also good fighters in melee (lore wise) and do craft good weaponry (better than average human crafting if I recall). And ranged support is essential in the eventuality of a siege (which doesn't happen in-game granted but the possibility was there). We can't really have predicted that the finale battle would have been in Denerim or at least in the same fashion as it turned out to be.

Also, the Dalish can be relied upon to coordinate their effort with the rest of the army. I am not sure how the werewolves would be able to coordinate efforts with the rest.

Not saying that the werewolves are useless, but I thought both during the battle and in-game that the elves would be more reliable. And less of a possible threat to Ferelden after the blight.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 02:25 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Dalish elves are also good fighters in melee

Someone Garbed in leather armor and armed with a Dirk, is not good in melee. Agility is good for single combat, but a in pitched battle where you have thousands of people mashing together, you need strength.

 And ranged support is essential in the eventuality of a siege (which doesn't happen in-game granted but the possibility was there)

When you are in the situation where you are forced into a siege, you have already lost the battle.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 02:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Dalish elves are also good fighters in melee

Someone Garbed in leather armor and armed with a Dirk, is not good in melee. Agility is good for single combat, but a in pitched battle where you have thousands of people mashing together, you need strength.

But the archers at Agincourt were not that wel armored and armed. But they had the advantage of terrain and of the French being..well stupid. Granted.

Also, I am nto sure I agree. The early Muslim armies wore very little armor and did not have weaponry that equals that of the Persians and Romans and yet they still won in major battles (and it's not always thanks to the cavalry, in fact they made a very small percentage of overal Muslim forces). But...well maybe Arabs are physically tougher than elves

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 And ranged support is essential in the eventuality of a siege (which doesn't happen in-game granted but the possibility was there)

When you are in the situation where you are forced into a siege, you have already lost the battle.

That's not what I recall you saying about Orzammar facing the blight on its own

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 02:33 .

[Costin_Razvan]

But the archers at Agincourt were not that wel armored and armed. But they had the advantage of terrain and of the French being..well stupid. Granted.



Also, I am nto sure I agree. The early Muslim armies wore very little armor and did not have weaponry that equals that of the Persians and Romans and yet they still won in major battles (and it's not always thanks to the cavalry, in fact they made a very small percentage of overal Muslim forces). But...well maybe Arabs are physically tougher than elves

At Agincourt the English won....because of the mud. I kid you not.



As for the early Muslim armies, well having armor in the heat of the desert is prone to giving you heat exhaustion. In armor you sweat like a pig ripe for slaughter.

That's not what I recall you saying about Orzammar facing the blight on its own

I wasn't claiming that Orzammar could defeat the Blight alone, but rather that they would hold long enough, and inflict enough casualties for Orlais to hammer the Darkspawn in the rear.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for the early Muslim armies, well having armor in the heat of the desert is prone to giving you heat exhaustion. In armor you sweat like a pig ripe for slaughter.

But they didn't always fight the Romans and Persians in the desert proper. Rather in the fertile crescent, where it's not that much of a desert. The battle of Al Qadissiyah was not in the desert and was in upper Iraq. Not to mention the expansions into Sindh, Spain and Anatolia.

But this is getting somewhat off-topic. 
To briefly sumarise my perspective on the elves being useful or not, I thought about it this way. I already have dwarves, humans, Templars and of course Golems to hold the line. So I figured I would add a bit of variety and add a flexible ranged element into the army. 
Of course the werewolves can be counted on for their speed as well.
 

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I wasn't claiming that Orzammar could defeat the Blight alone, but rather that they would hold long enough, and inflict enough casualties for Orlais to hammer the Darkspawn in the rear.

Same could be said about holding the line till the Orlesians and Wardens come in, which is what Anora / Alsitair try to do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 02:49 .