113 réponses à ce sujet

[NetBeansAndJava]

KB3SKU wrote...

1Parmenides wrote...

Shhh, too many of these "mages are overpowered" threads.  The devs might nerf them next patch.

Devs, no one is complaining here

You read my mind 

Haha, qft.

though maybe the devs will read this as "buff other classes"?  One can always hope. 

[JandauX]

Jack Momo wrote...

I would like to see a party of 4 mages take on a High Dragon.

Assuming one of them is an Arcane Warrior, that's easier than it seems. Arcane Warrior with Massive armor, Rock armor and Shimmering Shield has over 60 armor and maxed resists. He can soak up damage like a sponge. One or two Spirit Healers and then just stack debuffs on the poor lizard and staff him to death if needed.

[PurplePaladin]

As usual us Warriors do all the grunt work, and get little glory. If not for us taking the pounding and taunting the baddies off the mages, they'd be paste most the time. It's a thankless job (sniff, wipes eyes) with the flashy spellcasters getting all the fame. But seriously, I thought for sure there would be a "Paldin" type tree for warriors, with at least one healing type spell, but oh well.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Hey, I appreciate my warriors. Alistair (for the most part) does a damn fine job of keeping scary things away from my mage after she blows them all up and generates ridiculous amounts of threat toward herself.



The thing with mages is that played well, they are unstoppable. Played poorly, they are confusing, squishy, and sad. The class requires more micromanagement, but gives back for the effort you put into them. It was the same thing with mages in D&D and other RPGs. My cleric/mage for BG2 had about 4 hit points to begin, and by the end of Throne of Bhaal could kill literally anything.

[dannythefool]

I wonder why anyone would assume three mages means the fourth character has to be a tank. You can just as well play the tank yourself as a blood mage/arcane warrior character, and then you can have the cutest character in the game do ranged support, pick locks and disarm traps ;-)



The downside to any three mage party is of course that Morrigan is such a ****. A shame you can't set her up with Sten. Those two would make a most charming couple.



And back on topic, if you treat every class as the same then mages are overpowered. That's fairly obvious, especially once you've realised that a mage might make a better tank than a warrior if set up in a specific way while still retaining the other benefits of being a mage. But if you've been paying attention to the narrative, you should realise that there are severe drawbacks to being a mage, and almost no sane person in the game world would want to be one. Unfortunately this doesn't really manifest in interactions with other characters, and while every other roaming mage is considered an apostate and must be hunted, nobody ever seems to think that of you despite all the killing. For example, I've been doing all kinds of quests to protect independent mages, including blood mages in several cases, and while I suppose not everybody is instantly aware of what I do, at least the people in my party should realise what we're doing. Also, I've yet to hear a comment about Morrigan from Wynne. Sure, Wynne is very morally conscious and has her own little secret, but she could at least comment on it, couldn't she?



About nerfing them... I don't really think this game is playable without strong mages, there are too many situations where you desperately need healing and crowd control. The raw damage output of a mage isn't really as out of line as the awesome support abilities. If they nerf mages they'll have to make certain encounters much less interesting. And balance doesn't matter much anyway as it's a single player game; if you think it's too easy you can always turn up difficulty and/or play a different party setup. I'd recommend playing different party setups anyway just to hear the dialogue between party members ;-)

[oofy]

all i know is i got about 4-5 hours into a rogue then a warrior on hard having a tough time then made a mage and haven even used a minor health poltrice and i been breezing through hard for over 20 hours. My party is so cheese its me morrigan and Wynne, and the rogue chick and we just melt everyones faces. I could even solo most encounters with a cone of cold/electricity/flame. Stand in doorway, freeze everyone, electrocute everyone, melt everyone. pleanty of spells left to kill anything that survived.

Modifié par oofy, 11 novembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[Suron]

um...aren't mages SUPPOSED to be powerful..hence the whole being afraid of them and keeping them cloistered and under control...and why Templars hunt the rogues??



of course they're powerful..they should be....if they weren't the lore wouldn't fit.



The only thing that's a little unbalanced is I never see an enemy mage revive a fallen NPC...AND even though mage AE's affect your party (unless you play on Easy) it's not as dangerous as it should be because there's no real penalty for death (short of a game-ending wipe...so you can blast away as long as enemy damage is greater then your own...injury kits ftw.



If anything makes them too powerful it's the lack of real threat to your own team...they shoulda made it more like BG's death where you had to at least use a revive/resurrect on the person that died...and how rapidly you replenish health doesn't help either.



But otherwise mages are fine...there power fits the lore/world..if anything makes them too powerful for a party member/pc it's death system.

[Mnemnosyne]

I've always felt that mages in fantasy games should be considerably more powerful than the warriors or rogues - especially in a world where mages are the only magic-users.  There's no logic to the idea that a person with a sword, regardless of skill, could possibly defeat someone capable of manipulating the very fabric of reality - unless the latter were at some significant disadvantage, such as surprised or ambushed or simply in a terrible tactical situation for the abilities at their disposal.

The mages in this game seem better "balanced" than your typical AD&D mage, while still maintaining the tremendous power they clearly should possess, since you don't have lots of defensive spells.  No stoneskins or mantles or any of the various and sundry protection spells that would prevent you from being mincemeat if you're caught in a bad situation.  Here, you have just a few tools, and most of them are offensive rather than defensive - meaning they're easier for your enemy to resist or negate.  You never have to spend 10 rounds breaking through the enemy's stoneskins, or waiting for their protection from magical/normal weapons to expire.  You just have to get past their control of the battlefield, which is formidable, but much less inescapable than having to simply beat through their protections.  It is not rare that a moment's distraction during a chaotic battle results in my mage dying, simply because an enemy managed to get two or three hits in.

[Ultrazennn]

I love mages, and have run the game with a 3 mage and one tank party.

That being said, my highest DPS character by far is my cunning rogue, and my favorite class in the game.

Best party I've had so far is 1 tank, 1 rogue, 2 mages, one mage speced AOE and CC, the other heals.

Rogues are absolutey *great* as main characters, in my opinion the best choice in the game.  The benefits you get from a high cunning/lethality speced rogue are awesome for multiple reasons.

The game tends to migrate into massive number of mobs sort of fights as you progress, having a lot of CC and multiple target DPS lends iteself to that.  For me, I'd much rather have a rogue than a 3rd mage, as a rogue has *much* higher DPS on important fights i.e. bosses.

I think the problem actually lies in tank type characters not having enough survivability, and melee DPS classes not having enough AOE type abilities.  When you routinely start running into 15+ mobs per fight, anything that is only doing single target damage is not going to be very desirable.

Looking forward to modding this game, if I can get .net framework 2.0 to not hose my system when I try to install it lol.

[BonafideSeraphim]

Ultrazennn wrote...

I love mages, and have run the game with a 3 mage and one tank party.

That being said, my highest DPS character by far is my cunning rogue, and my favorite class in the game.

Best party I've had so far is 1 tank, 1 rogue, 2 mages, one mage speced AOE and CC, the other heals.

Rogues are absolutey *great* as main characters, in my opinion the best choice in the game.  The benefits you get from a high cunning/lethality speced rogue are awesome for multiple reasons.

The game tends to migrate into massive number of mobs sort of fights as you progress, having a lot of CC and multiple target DPS lends iteself to that.  For me, I'd much rather have a rogue than a 3rd mage, as a rogue has *much* higher DPS on important fights i.e. bosses.

I think the problem actually lies in tank type characters not having enough survivability, and melee DPS classes not having enough AOE type abilities.  When you routinely start running into 15+ mobs per fight, anything that is only doing single target damage is not going to be very desirable.

Looking forward to modding this game, if I can get .net framework 2.0 to not hose my system when I try to install it lol.

Mages are actually better at damage dealing AND tanking. The only advantage any class has over the Mage is being able to disarm traps and pick locks.

An Arcane Warrior can solo everything in the game. A mage can easily outclass any character in DPS on mobs or single targets as well.

Rogues get better use out of Strength as well currently. With the Dex bug there's little reason to pump points into cunning and even when it's fixed Strength will almost certainly be more efficient.

Why? You need 31 strength to wield the best longswords in the game. It's much more efficient to just keep leveling strength as it increases damage and also contributes to physical resistance and attack(things that cunning doesn't do, even with lethality). Plus, with enough strength you can even wear the best massive armor or opt for the best heavy or medium if you prefer lower fatigue. Since it is so difficult for tanks to hold aggro(especially when paired with a high DPS rogue...who can dish out TONS of damage, only being outclassed by the mage a bit) one could easily make an argument for equipping at least heavy armor on a rogue.

All that said, I greatly enjoy using my rogue. He's just more fun for me than mages.

[Auraad]

The class mage itself is powerful, yes - you can do almost everything with "a" mage.

However, don't forget that the traditional role of a cleric is also taken by a mage - you could call a spirit healer a cleric. And there you go - you can't excel in healing AND blasting, you've got to decide.

So, you can't make ONE single all-powerful mage. Besides, rouges can do quite a huge amount of dmg on a single oponent.



One more reason I think for the mage-centric backgrond in DA:O is that Bio has created their own world and need to describe how magic works in ferelden to all newbies ... (which would be all of us, of course ).

[Korva]

Yes. More than "a bit". And it annoys me, to be honest.

I do like playing the occasional mage, they can be great fun, yes. But at heart I am and always will be a melee gal, a warrior-lover. While DA actually gives warriors some abilities to use so they're not stuck doing nothing but auto-attacks, there's still much room for improvement.

And I have to admit, from a story POV I just can't see mages as "proper heroes" -- more like prissy spoiled weaklings cowering far away from the real action yet thinking of themselves as gods because they can blow crap up from a mile away. It just isn't remotely the same as honest steel, as being the first to charge headlong into battle to literally shield your companions from harm with your own body, of relying on your own strength and wits and skill to survive the heart-pounding terror of toe-to-toe combat where every slight misstep could be your last.

Mages are support, IMO, and I appreciate them as such, and yes many are far from arrogant prancing twits who'd nonetheless crap their fancy robes at the first sign of a real fight -- hell, look at Wynne! She could be anyone's grandma but she still has more guts and dedication than most, and a big heart to boot. But I just can never identify with a pure caster character as much as with a sword-swinger.

The problem is that while some settings are supposed to have some checks and balances for magic, in practice these restrictions are usually completely meaningless. Here in Thedas we have Fade-spirits always ready to possess mages at the slightest mistake. In some settings like WarCraft, magic is supposed to be heavily addictive and corrupting. And then you have societal restrictions and organizations like the Templar. But all that is nothing more than background flavor that is ignored more often than not. At best it gets dragged out for the occasional sidequest, but never applies otherwise -- and never to player character mages. Lack of consequences is one of my biggest gripes with many games and settings, not just for mages. Finally, magic is often supposedly quite rare, but since you can play one,
you're always guaranteed to have at least one even if the odds are
otherwise a billion to one.

Sorry if all that was a bit wordy.

I think the Biowarians have said that in DA they didn't want to have an uber-hybrid mage who can beat the pants off warriors in their own game, the one thing warriors are good at: melee combat. But given all the hoopla about Arcane Warriors, it seems they missed their mark by a good margin. And what also really bugs me: mages have an essentially unlimited power supply via lyrium potions. Warriors and rogues are somewhat screwed, unlike in DA: Journeys where they get the stamina-restoring balm. Deep mushrooms don't cut it in comparison IMO.

Modifié par Korva, 11 novembre 2009 - 01:20 .

[arcueid22]

Despite the class skill, status, or whatever, I do think that mage in DAO World is something special, only someone gifted can be a mage. Don't you see the story? That's the point why mage is overwhelming
Every game has its own world, its own setting, and in DAO itself, mages really are rare kind. I really appreciate this as one of strong points in DAO world. (though i dont like playing mage, and it's a bit frustating to battle again mages, their fireball, their cursed, their cone of cold, their chain lightning and this..and that.. lol)
There's no need for mage to be nerf-ed i think. Once again, it's clearly plotted that mage here is rare, why bother if it's overpowered? Wouldn't it be 'strange' if the mages not overpowered with that kind story and setting? Well, i've been playing this game for about 32hrs so far in normal, but my warrior do well, and so for my party (morrigan, allistair, wynne). Just need a bit of exploration and patience to learn how combat, tactics, and every skill works
I really love every aspect in this game even the tiniest !!

Modifié par arcueid22, 11 novembre 2009 - 01:11 .

[Korva]

The problem is, IMO, that mages have all the power they're supposed to have as per the setting, yet none of the drawbacks. Lyrium isn't so rare as it's supposed to be, so you can chain-chug potions for infinite mana. You're a Grey Warden so you're free of the Circle's and Templars' control. I guess in theory you'd still get hunted as a maleficar if you did the really nasty magics, but that doesn't happen. And you never have to worry about demonic possession, even if you're playing your mage as the biggest arse ever, someone who'd be a perfect target for the rage/pride/desire/sloth demons.

Modifié par Korva, 11 novembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[1Parmenides]

Warriors get no glory? Have you seen warriors do finishing moves on ogres? After seeing that, my mage feels like someone operating in the background.

[harvestboygoobus]

addiction21 wrote...

Jack Momo wrote...

I would like to see a party of 4 mages take on a High Dragon.

I'll do it with 3 mages, all with a hand behind their back, without mana/health pots, on nightmare, while posting, without any waffles for breakfast.

You, ser, are a wizard.

[yay4fof]

Mages are definitely overpowered but that's only because the weapons/armor melee gets sucks compared to mage spells, especially at lower levels. When you get the tier 7 gear with magic mods on it melee start to get better. Mages have insanely overpowered aoe spells but it seems their single target dps is lacking. As a rogue, I do much more damage on single mobs (like bosses), but a mage's cc is so vital on the harder difficulties against overpowered enemy mages. Templars are portrayed as the anti-mage class but imo smite sucks compared to crushing prison/force field/blood control/neutralization glyph. I assume when they come out with more dlc and raise the level cap we'll see better melee gear with magic resist.

[Samthorian]

Mages are suppose to be powerful. They're dealing with magic which is why they are so regulated in the Dragon Age world with the Chantry and the Templars trying to control what the mages can do and keep them contained in the Circle of Magi. Mages who work with Blood Magic will get the death penalty. Just by the game's story you can tell that Mages are overpowered and that's why they why the Chantry took care of making sure they were under control.



Although I do think Mages shouldn't be able to heal. They need an Origin relating to the Chantry which would produce a healing/buff/holy class so Mages wouldn't be able to do everything. It would also be neat to see Mages suffer from Lyrium withdrawls when they haven't taken any Lyrium potions in awhile.

[Korva]

A "priest" class wouldn't fit the setting though, because the Maker and the elven gods don't interfere that way with mortals, they don't grant holy powers and may not even exist. Though I'm curious how exactly the Templar powers work. Templars aren't mages and their powers aren't really magic, but they sure know how to counter magic somehow ...

[MBirkhofer]

Korva wrote...

A "priest" class wouldn't fit the setting though, because the Maker and the elven gods don't interfere that way with mortals, they don't grant holy powers and may not even exist. Though I'm curious how exactly the Templar powers work. Templars aren't mages and their powers aren't really magic, but they sure know how to counter magic somehow ...

I would have made the spirit healer, or spec actions a bit more focused for mages.
Meaning, I would have made it so mages are more or less forced to choose damage or healing, or tanking. not all three.
Arcane warrior would make their casting much weaker, etc.
Or outright, white mage/black mage, again splitting mages into more then 1 class.

[Skemte]

I would have prefered a "wild" druidcentric class that could have the healing ability, and a actually meaingful shape shifting class.. Because as it stands it one of the most useless specs out therey

[chizow]

I think the biggest disparity between mages and physical dmg types stems from the fact you can reasonably and affordably spam alternate between two different types of pots to keep the damage (and heals, and CC, and etc.) flowing, while with melee, you basically let auto-attack run its course once you've burned through your initial stamina.



Personally I think there's a missing Stamina potion that either got pulled or nix'd at some point in development. Not sure why, but Deep Mushrooms are a base crafting component that are supposed to return some stamina (its something negligible and not even worth mentioning, like 1-2 stamina). They can be used for injury kits that don't return stamina, or dog food which adds to stamina regen but only for your dog.....

[CorwynNiTessine]

Korva wrote...

Though I'm curious how exactly the Templar powers work. Templars aren't mages and their powers aren't really magic, but they sure know how to counter magic somehow ...

Actually, there's a part where if you talk to Alistair, you get him to realize that Templars essentially use a form of magic.  Which is very suitable for the DA setting, where there is no real "good" or "bad" but rather shades of grey. 

The same way that Grey Wardens devote themselves to killing darkspawn, but drink darkspawn blood and are thus to a small degree darkspawn themselves, hence why they can sense other darkspawn and can "hear" the archdemons.

[Korva]

Yeah, that really ticks me off, I couldn't believe there doesn't seem to be a stamina-restoring potion. And I seriously wonder why, and would very much like to see it changed ASAP. It would really feel less unfair. Mages have superpowers as per the setting (even if they don't suffer any of the drawbacks), I understand that and can live with it despite my preference to the contrary. I'd just like to be able to chug a stamina potion when my character runs dry or is drained of stamina somehow.

EDIT: The thing is, you're supposedly born with magic in Thedas -- or, as the case may be, the vast majority of people are not. Surely not every kid given to the Templars or every adult who decides to join them "just happens" to have some untapped magical potential? That'd be way too convenient, and if they did have the potential, why weren't they trained as mages? There's lyrium, but it isn't necessary for a Templar, so it doesn't "induce" the powers does it?

Modifié par Korva, 11 novembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[Curry Noodles]

I think one of the issues was that you just didn't run into enemy templars anywhere outside of the circle tower. A few templars can really screw you over very quickly. I remember opening a door on my AW with crazy mounts of armor etc. etc., seeing three templars, and dying instantly. Literally I died in less than a second, they all used smite on me at the same time.