113 réponses à ce sujet

[ivy21jaw]

Mages can do quite a bit but without a warrior or high con/dex rogue to take some of the heat - they're in trouble. Got a dual wield warrior that I absolutely love playing. Nothing better than seeing him grab the horn on the head of the dragon to do this spinning finishing move. He can tank some and has high DPS. Admittedly, I find Wynne not always doing what I'd like her to do, so I have to switch to her in heavy battles to make sure she reacts fast enough for my taste. I'm really looking forward to playing a rogue and mage. I think both will be an absolute blast. This game seems setup so that you CAN play with pretty much any setup it simply requires more strategy the more one sided when your group lacks.

[Ickabod27]

Based on the lore of the game it makes sense that mages would be op. I mean almost all of society is designed to keep them in check.

[Project Mercy]

Alistar says that Templars don't need lirium to use their powers. He says he's not sure if it makes them more powerful or not though. Not sure if this counts as a spoiler or not?

In either cases, mages trivialize the game a lot. It's a single player game, so it's not like you're forced to play a mage or anything.

I tank with my mage Main regularly though outside of Boss fights. You throw a fireball to drop the room, then throw a storm over them, hit chain lightning or cone of cold on the way in. When they surround you hit mind blast, drop another cone and then throw up your bubble. 99% of the time the NPCs will spend the rest of the encounter beating on your bubble while the rest of your party clears them out. If they haven't cleared them out by the time the bubble's up, you just quaff a mana pot and toss it up again. There's the odd NPC who glitches no your bubble and resets their health. Generally though this is just bosses, and it's faster to keep a meatshield in front of them anyway during those few cases.

Which again, is part of the problem. A mage is unhindered by fatigue, because you can just keep quaffing pots or *using some special ability you can get somewhere*

I haven't tried it on nightmare, but playing a mage main on hard is trivial to me compared to playing a shield warrior on normal, especially early on before you can get *the more useful mage*

Modifié par Project Mercy, 11 novembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[MBirkhofer]

Ickabod27 wrote...

Based on the lore of the game it makes sense that mages would be op. I mean almost all of society is designed to keep them in check.

Gameplay should always trump lore.   Heck, one of the reasons they got away from WTOC, was so they could have full control over the game systems.

Also, mages are policed becuase they can loose control so easy, not just becuase they are powerful.  Although, "power beyond the efforct required to gain it" is mentioned yes.

[serthorn]

It is not the the mage-archetype itself who is OP, it is the infinite supply of lyrium-mixtures that makes them OP. Remove NPCs who sell infinite numbers of lyrium and bottles for mixtures and mages will be back in the line with other classes.

[Jason310M]

I have noticed since I started my mage character the combat ends much quicker with the deaths of my adversaries.

[borelocin]

I have found that a archery specced rogue is a handy sniper and does decent DPS. It's all about party balance. Arrow of Slaying on that pesky enemy mage gives my two mages time to lay the smackdown while my tank holds aggro. Suppressing Fire on bosses helps keep my tank standing long enough for the mages to nuke bosses to death.



Revival is what really tips things in the mages favour - two mages who can resurrect = unwipeable team so far.

[Ickabod27]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Ickabod27 wrote...

Based on the lore of the game it makes sense that mages would be op. I mean almost all of society is designed to keep them in check.

Gameplay should always trump lore.   Heck, one of the reasons they got away from WTOC, was so they could have full control over the game systems.

Also, mages are policed becuase they can loose control so easy, not just becuase they are powerful.  Although, "power beyond the efforct required to gain it" is mentioned yes.

I completely disagree, Bioware wrote the lore into how they wanted the gameplay mechanics to work, so for the start it was a design decision that the mages were going to be more powerful than the other classes.  The chantry and the templars are pretty much devoted to keeping mages in check, and in check I mean from demonic possession.  However if you've done the mage tower than you can see what a handful of blood mages are capable of doing, and they very easily could wipe out an army if given the chance.  It would be silly if you couldn't make a mage that was capable of doing the same.

But really why does it even matter?  It's a single player game and how someone chooses to play should be based on the experience that they want to have.  I play a 2h warrior becuase I'm not a fan of casters typically, but in DA it doesn't even matter because I take control over Wynne or Morrigan half the time anyway.  Point being, if you want to be a god you can be, balance doesn't really matter because what are you balancing it against anyway?  The relative power of one class over another has no real bearing on your play experience as the balance doesn't directly affect your play at any given time.  Yes if you compare two different play throughs then they will be very different, but it's only a difference in your experience.

In a game for example like WoW where pvp and picking the best class for a given instance comes into play then the classes are in direct competition to each other and the balance of one class to another is a huge deal because it directly affects your play experience.  While in a single player game like DA balance has an indirect effect.

[Devlen12]

I have a mage now that tanks better than Shale or Alister,  She has 132 defense and almost a 50 armor.  Arcane Warrior is dumb dumb dumb way over powered when you do it right, and how do you keep agro with no taunt?  well when your running with 75% resists thanks to Arcane Warrior and 100 physical.... you just drop ground zero fireballs every time they come up, i take little damage and dont get knocked down and every mob turns and jumps me. 

So now my group make up is Wynne for healing, Morrigan with lots of AE damage and single target mage damage, and the Bard (Forgot the spelling of her damn name) with a bow and courage song.  I have not died yet on a major boss fight with the dragons or brood mother.

Ive had a single player die durring mass mob encounters but never any of the mages, they all have Arcane Warrior and silly amounts of armor defense and resists to go with firepower.  Its mainly the bard that keeps dying when overwhelmed lol

[Niten Ryu]

I find it odd that Bioware managed to create this overpowerd class in game that only has 3 classes (or 2 as warrior / rogue difference is minimal). Number of mages you have in your party defines game difficulty more then actual diffiuclt settings. Mages don't care if there's just 1 mob or huge group of 'em. They CC and destroy everyone.

[Neechan]

Yeah, the game is a bit mage-centric, not to mention that Wynne and Morrigan are plenty strong and extremely useful. I'm already playing the game on Easy, so I decided not to have both of them in my party at once, as tempting as it may be.



I'll always be a Warrior-class lover. I just love my characters fighting physically.

[AngeloBurton]

I too think mages are too powerful as of the moment. But of course story wise they should be powerful. Powerful but rare. The rare aspect doesn't come through when you can run around with 50% - 75% of your party being mages (75% if you yourself are one).



Regarding the "healer class can't exist because the maker doesn't grand special powers/magic to his followers": true that, maybe if I had been the game designer I would have decided that there is a special "herbalist" class and the only way of healing would have been potions and special abilites of the herbalist. Story wise stating magic can only destroy, not heal other beeings. But of course it's too late to introduce such a dramatic change as of now.

[Korva]

If the Arcane Warriors were brought in line a bit and stamina balms were implemented like in Journeys, then I'd have no complaints because yes, mages are supposed to be strong in this setting. Still, and I may sound like a broken record here, for simple balance/fairness I really want those balms -- and insight as to why the developers chose to leave them out.

[WillieStyle]

I really hate this "mages are supposed to be strong" argument. First of all, why?! Why must every setting include the all powerful mage. It's as overplayed as aging kindly wizards with long white beards.



But even if you take the setting's premise at face value:

-How come Lyrium is supposed to be rare, yet at level 10 I have 30 mana pots in my inventory meaning my mages can chain-cast their spells while my rogue and Alastair are stuck waiting for stamina to regen?

-How come my mage PC gets to adventure around as a Grey Warden the same as my warrior and rogue? Why isn't the cirlce/templars keeping him in check?

-How come I don't get possessed (and neither does Morrigan) no matter how badly we behave?

-Finally, while mages are rare, so are Grey Wardens. The PC is a special being in the world no matter what her class may be. Sadly, some classes are more special than others.



Using "lore" arguments to trump game balance is dumb. This is a game, and as such, the options presented to the player should be balanced. I really hoped we had left the bad old days when mages could tank better than warrior behind with DnD but sadly Bioware has reintroduced them with DA:O.



Why is Blizzard the only company that seems capable of balancing spellcasters and melee? I want balance and great storytelling. Sadly it seems I'll have to settle for one or the other. You'd think some other game company would notice the massive success of WoW and realize that what's drawing people to that game isn't he nonexistent story or the hard core raids most people never see. It's the class balance that reassures players that whatever class you choose, you'll never be second class.

[Zinras]

WillieStyle wrote...
Why is Blizzard the only company that seems capable of balancing spellcasters and melee? I want balance and great storytelling. Sadly it seems I'll have to settle for one or the other. You'd think some other game company would notice the massive success of WoW and realize that what's drawing people to that game isn't he nonexistent story or the hard core raids most people never see. It's the class balance that reassures players that whatever class you choose, you'll never be second class.

You are comparing a singleplayer RPG with an MMO, which about as faulty a comparison as you can possibly make. MMOs need such a balance because of PvP and because people would complain 24/7 otherwise (which they do anyway, though). MMO mentality usually is that every class should be exactly the same, with the same DPS and as little difference between abilities as possible. Either that or go entirely into the opposite, where every class should be so different they can only do one thing.

Mages are good in DAO, but so is everything else. People are complaining about stuff because they don't know how to properly build a character yet. Right after release, people complained loudly about archers (which some still do) and yet a friend of mine had an archer that could do up to 80 damage long before my mage could. A proper close combat rogue can also kill things incredibly quickly and can do tons of damage if allowed to flank and backstab. I almost find the game easier with my warrior (just started my second playthrough) because I can control aggro much easier and if you manage to get your two-hander flanking, damage can get ridiculous.

I'd say the one major mage error Bioware probably made, is that you can exploit some spells rather nastily. I didn't do it much myself because I thought it borderline cheating, but you can make Alistair into a super tank, have him use threaten and the likes to draw aggro, force field him for damage immunity and then spam some AoE on him with your mage (Blizzard is particularly useful with stun and knockback). That way, the rest of your party hangs back doing extra damage while Alistair grins from his force field that makes him immune to damage. At worst you might have to heal him up once if your AoE is lasting a bit longer than your immunity spell but that's it.

As for the potion argument some people make, the same applies to warriors. You can make a super tank, use him to draw aggro and feed him millions of potions. Given that they get some seriously good gear through enchantments and quest loot, they will always maintain at least a decent amount of damage as well.

And as a final note on Blizzard, they don't make their characters balanced in their RPGs, they make them seriously overpowered but in different ways

[WillieStyle]

Zinras wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...
Why is Blizzard the only company that seems capable of balancing spellcasters and melee? I want balance and great storytelling. Sadly it seems I'll have to settle for one or the other. You'd think some other game company would notice the massive success of WoW and realize that what's drawing people to that game isn't he nonexistent story or the hard core raids most people never see. It's the class balance that reassures players that whatever class you choose, you'll never be second class.

You are comparing a singleplayer RPG with an MMO, which about as faulty a comparison as you can possibly make. MMOs need such a balance because of PvP and because people would complain 24/7 otherwise (which they do anyway, though). MMO mentality usually is that every class should be exactly the same, with the same DPS and as little difference between abilities as possible. Either that or go entirely into the opposite, where every class should be so different they can only do one thing.

Or you could have multiple classes do the same thing but in different ways but with tradeoffs that made them blanced.  Instead you have a game where the "squishy" class tanks better than the "tank" class.

Mages are good in DAO, but so is everything else. People are complaining about stuff because they don't know how to properly build a character yet.

No. People are complaing because they know how to properly build characters and a properly built mage is far more powerful than a properly built rogue/warrior.

Right after release, people complained loudly about archers (which some still do) and yet a friend of mine had an archer that could do up to 80 damage long before my mage could.

I find it amussing that you'd use this as an example as the lead developer recently released a hotfix that significantly buffed archer and fixed some terrible bugs that were keeping them weak.  So Bioware has effectively admitted that archers were weak.

I'd say the one major mage error Bioware probably made, is that you can exploit some spells rather nastily. I didn't do it much myself because I thought it borderline cheating, but you can make Alistair into a super tank, have him use threaten and the likes to draw aggro, force field him for damage immunity and then spam some AoE on him with your mage (Blizzard is particularly useful with stun and knockback). That way, the rest of your party hangs back doing extra damage while Alistair grins from his force field that makes him immune to damage. At worst you might have to heal him up once if your AoE is lasting a bit longer than your immunity spell but that's it.

Yes. It's things like forcefield, and cone of cold, and blizzard, and sleep/nightmare and a host of other overpowered spells that cause people to complain that mages are overpowered.

As for the potion argument some people make, the same applies to warriors. You can make a super tank, use him to draw aggro and feed him millions of potions. Given that they get some seriously good gear through enchantments and quest loot, they will always maintain at least a decent amount of damage as well.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.  It's a lot more effective to have a mage heal the tank than have the tank chug potions.  Hell just cut out the middleman entirely and have the mage spec arcane warrior and tank the boss while another mage heals him.

And as a final note on Blizzard, they don't make their characters balanced in their RPGs, they make them seriously overpowered but in different ways

If everyone is overpowered, then everyone is balanced.

[Wrath_Of_Deadguy]

I'm doing my second playthrough as a mage, and I've so far been positively amazed at how powerful I became at a very very low level. Add Morrigan in and... well, two offensive mages who can use Winter's grasp and Cone of Cold can make you feel like you're a vengeful Norse god making sno-cones out of the mere mortals who offend you, especially with Alistair and Dog on hand to shatter whomever you freeze. Then I got my hands on Fireball. I'm not even level 10 yet, but I have two terrifyingly effective offensive spells, two very good weapon buffs that are stackable with each other, and a smattering of lesser offensive and defensive spells to use while my big stuff is recharging. Oh, and a basic but powerful healing spell and constant if unimpressive (but also guaranteed to hit) damage from a staff. Holy crap.

It's actually rather entertaining compared to how weak I felt at the same point with my Dalish rogue. My rogue remained a supporting member of the team (though a valuable one thanks to backstabs and picking off mobs at range) clear through until I got the ranger spec and suddenly found that my bear pet and my rogue together made a better tank than my tank did (at which point I spec'd all three rogues as rangers and used the Big Brown Bear Brigade as my shock troops) because they could be in two places at once. That, however, was a late-game phenomenon... by that point I felt that I'd earned my power.

On the other hand, I'm a glass cannon as a mage now because I've completely neglected constitution, and I even skimped a bit on willpower to get my magic stat up as high as possible as early as possible so that I could fulfill my destiny as a nukewaif. My girl's growing up to be a one-woman armageddon wrapped in tissue paper.

[Devlen12]

Wrath_Of_Deadguy wrote...

I'm doing my second playthrough as a mage, and I've so far been positively amazed at how powerful I became at a very very low level. Add Morrigan in and... well, two offensive mages who can use Winter's grasp and Cone of Cold can make you feel like you're a vengeful Norse god making sno-cones out of the mere mortals who offend you, especially with Alistair and Dog on hand to shatter whomever you freeze. Then I got my hands on Fireball. I'm not even level 10 yet, but I have two terrifyingly effective offensive spells, two very good weapon buffs that are stackable with each other, and a smattering of lesser offensive and defensive spells to use while my big stuff is recharging. Oh, and a basic but powerful healing spell and constant if unimpressive (but also guaranteed to hit) damage from a staff. Holy crap.

It's actually rather entertaining compared to how weak I felt at the same point with my Dalish rogue. My rogue remained a supporting member of the team (though a valuable one thanks to backstabs and picking off mobs at range) clear through until I got the ranger spec and suddenly found that my bear pet and my rogue together made a better tank than my tank did (at which point I spec'd all three rogues as rangers and used the Big Brown Bear Brigade as my shock troops) because they could be in two places at once. That, however, was a late-game phenomenon... by that point I felt that I'd earned my power.

On the other hand, I'm a glass cannon as a mage now because I've completely neglected constitution, and I even skimped a bit on willpower to get my magic stat up as high as possible as early as possible so that I could fulfill my destiny as a nukewaif. My girl's growing up to be a one-woman armageddon wrapped in tissue paper.

The "Glass Cannon" goes away when you pick up Arcane Warrior, you will be in full plate have more defense/offense/armor than rogues or tanks AND still cast fireballs that clear rooms in one blast.  the mage is a pretty overpowered class from 1-14 but after 14 when you have arcane warrior and some other key abilities you can solo dragons... I know because I tried Flemith with my mage girl at 16 and with regen and a bunch of mana pots i took her down without a sweat

[Vaeo]

Of course mages are extremely powerful. Why? Because the supernatural is more bad ass than just the natural, and they control the supernatural. It's like having a taste of god, being able to enchant speed, instantly heal wounds, etc. They are privy to gifts regular joes are not, but that's not to say mages do everything teh bestest. Though if they needed to, in theory, I'm sure there would be a spell for it. I really wouldn't wanna see an RPG where mages aren't kick ass. It wouldn't make sense: I have gifts you guys don't, but I'm weaker in all ways. Lulz. The counter mage has always been the null-guy magic doesn't affect. XD

[Kortok]

Mage is by far and away the most powerful class.

[Endurium]

To the OP: yes the developers like mages and so mages feature prominently in the game. Even Duncan says mages tip the scales in battles against the Darkspawn. Furthermore, I absolutely love throwing elemental spells around, compared to mundane activities like swinging a sword, thrusting a dagger, or bashing with a shield. (I just wish the mage staff would auto-shoot like swords auto-swing...)



For whatever reason, the character I'm going to finish first with is a rogue. Needless to say, a mage will be my next character. The only thing they can't train to do is open locked chests, but once I get into Lothering I can use Leliana for that.



Ranged combat would be more fun if this game didn't incorporate MMO aggro in combat. I sometimes feel like I'm playing WoW instead of a single-player RPG. I keep looking for a threat meter, but there is none. One lousy shot is all it takes to bring half-dead monsters to my ranged character. It's a PITA trying to control aggro, so I play on Easy and nuke everything with AoE attacks. Mages are best at AoE.

[Devlen12]

Not true, your playing a hero and mithos has shown us that heros are magical themselves, wither it be thier str like ol Hercules or speed like the comic books Flash. (though we are not playing super heros these are just examps that magic isnt the trump all) Heros are heros and should be played as such,

[Mnemnosyne]

WillieStyle wrote...

I really hate this "mages are supposed to be strong" argument. First of all, why?! Why must every setting include the all powerful mage. It's as overplayed as aging kindly wizards with long white beards.

Mages are supposed to be powerful because they can use magic, that's why.  Now if you remove the concept of mages from a setting that's one thing, or make a completely different concept of mages than the one most people are familiar with, sure, they don't have to be powerful.  But if we're talking about a mage as most anyone understands it, we're talking about a person able to do massively destructive things with relative ease - they can alter reality to their will, after all.  Warriors and rogues, on the other hand, must obey the laws of physics.

But even if you take the setting's premise at face value:
-How come Lyrium is supposed to be rare, yet at level 10 I have 30 mana pots in my inventory meaning my mages can chain-cast their spells while my rogue and Alastair are stuck waiting for stamina to regen?
-How come my mage PC gets to adventure around as a Grey Warden the same as my warrior and rogue? Why isn't the cirlce/templars keeping him in check?
-How come I don't get possessed (and neither does Morrigan) no matter how badly we behave?
-Finally, while mages are rare, so are Grey Wardens. The PC is a special being in the world no matter what her class may be. Sadly, some classes are more special than others.

-Mana potions are perhaps too common, to some degree.  And lyrium dust to make them is perhaps too cheap, and available in infinite quantities at the mage tower (ironically not in Orzammar, where lyrium is mined and refined).  So this is a weakness story-wise.
-Because Grey Wardens are outside of Chantry jurisdiction, especially during a Blight.  The game could stand to make a bigger deal out of your being a mage, though, with at least some incidents where templars use the story spread by your enemy to go after you regardless.  But even this can be glossed over by the fact that the Chantry isn't under the direct control of any particular nation, from what I'm understanding, and therefore it makes sense for them to continue to respect the Wardens.
-Possession doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether you're nice or behave badly.  It has to do with whether you are strong enough.  Historically, look at the Tevinter Imperium - they were powerful mages, many of them clearly evil (even disregarding Chantry propaganda, they did historically keep slaves and use them to fuel their magic if necessary) and they clearly weren't turning into abominations left and right.

Using "lore" arguments to trump game balance is dumb. This is a game, and as such, the options presented to the player should be balanced. I really hoped we had left the bad old days when mages could tank better than warrior behind with DnD but sadly Bioware has reintroduced them with DA:O.

On this point, I simply disagree.  It's a matter of opinion, overall.  And I think that story and internal consistency with the setting is vastly more important than balance, especially since we're talking a completely single-player game.  The concept of 'balance' has little to no place in a single-player game - only the concept of 'fun' is important.  Are mages, warriors, and rogues all fun to play?  Yes, perhaps not to the same people, but yes.

If you don't want to play a mage, don't.  You can get through the game just fine with an NPC mage with an intelligent tactic setup.  If you want to play a mage and have your experience be more difficult, then increase the difficulty setting, and if that isn't enough, don't pick the most ideal builds - build in-character rather than planning out the most efficient set of abilities to wreak devastation on your enemies.  Or make mods that increase the difficulty even further.

Modifié par Koyasha, 12 novembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[Devlen12]

Koyasha wrote...

On this point, I simply disagree.  It's a matter of opinion, overall.  And I think that story and internal consistency with the setting is vastly more important than balance, especially since we're talking a completely single-player game.  The concept of 'balance' has little to no place in a single-player game - only the concept of 'fun' is important.  Are mages, warriors, and rogues all fun to play?  Yes, perhaps not to the same people, but yes.

If you don't want to play a mage, don't.  You can get through the game just fine with an NPC mage with an intelligent tactic setup.  If you want to play a mage and have your experience be more difficult, then increase the difficulty setting, and if that isn't enough, don't pick the most ideal builds - build in-character rather than planning out the most efficient set of abilities to wreak devastation on your enemies.  Or make mods that increase the difficulty even further.

The point thats being driven home here isnt the fact that yes mages are mystical, but so should the hero your playing thats a rogue.  noone wants to play nomrality thats why we are PLAYING an RPG and not out playing real life.  Im not saying nerf mages (dear god im afraid thats going to be a whole nother thread) im saying patch warriors and rogues for something more... unique than just a human with a weapon

[Kwonne]

Mages are very important yes, but i will try Nightmare with 3 Rogues and 1 War.