113 réponses à ce sujet

[Oliver Sudden]

I'm nowhere near as awesome as you guys and I have no idea how well she'll survive in the later parts of the game, but I'm loving my little elf rogue girl.



When I first started playing RPGs (pen and paper D&D) I always picked mages. I had a ton of fighters in early CRPGs, but over the years I've come to prefer the thief/rogue/monk class. I've gotten to love the simplicity of the build without having to deal with ever stronger armor, spell levels, and all that jazz.



If I can, I usually try to include some healing thing in my builds, but I don't need to worry about that this time. I guess I'm learning to like sneaking around, opening all the locks, but I don't usually steal anything. I just don't care to walk around in a suit of armor and pound things anymore or snipe with fireballs and whatnot. It's more satisfying for me now to whack someone with a mace, stab 'em in the back, or use my fists in the games that allow that.

[Skemte]

I would think increasing the mana costs for all spells would do the job.. Allowing the destructive power to stay but only being able to cast it far less..

[WillieStyle]

Warriors and rogues, on the other hand, must obey the laws of physics.

Oh god. The "realism" argument. By the "laws of physics" I should one-shot mages by stabbing them in the back.

If you want to play a mage and have your experience be more difficult, then increase the difficulty setting, and if that isn't enough, don't pick the most ideal builds - build in-character rather than planning out the most efficient set of abilities to wreak devastation on your enemies. Or make mods that increase the difficulty even further.

Or play a different game.

[Mnemnosyne]

Devlen12 wrote...

The point thats being driven home here isnt the fact that yes mages are mystical, but so should the hero your playing thats a rogue.  noone wants to play nomrality thats why we are PLAYING an RPG and not out playing real life.  Im not saying nerf mages (dear god im afraid thats going to be a whole nother thread) im saying patch warriors and rogues for something more... unique than just a human with a weapon

But that's what they are.  If you make them something more than just a human with a weapon, then you're making them mages.  Or some other mystical class.  Which doesn't exist in the setting.  As I said, if you want to design a setting where these things are different, great.  But in this setting, normal warriors and rogues aren't anything more than people highly skilled in their particular type of combat, and are restricted by the laws of physics.

I will say that the stamina restriction, especially coupled with the lack of stamina potions, seems excessive.  Rogues and warriors should regenerate stamina very quickly in combat so that they never 'run out of steam' like mages can.  They shouldn't even really need potions to recover their stamina.  Couple this with making lyrium potions less common, and they would be stronger while mages would have an appropriate, story-supported weakness - the scarcity of lyrium.

WillieStyle wrote...

Oh god. The "realism" argument. By the "laws of physics" I should one-shot mages everyone by stabbing them in the back.

Fixed it for you.

Modifié par Koyasha, 12 novembre 2009 - 05:30 .

[Skemte]

Koyasha wrote...

Devlen12 wrote...

The point thats being driven home here isnt the fact that yes mages are mystical, but so should the hero your playing thats a rogue.  noone wants to play nomrality thats why we are PLAYING an RPG and not out playing real life.  Im not saying nerf mages (dear god im afraid thats going to be a whole nother thread) im saying patch warriors and rogues for something more... unique than just a human with a weapon

But that's what they are.  If you make them something more than just a human with a weapon, then you're making them mages.  Or some other mystical class.  Which doesn't exist in the setting.  As I said, if you want to design a setting where these things are different, great.  But in this setting, normal warriors and rogues aren't anything more than people highly skilled in their particular type of combat, and are restricted by the laws of physics.

I will say that the stamina restriction, especially coupled with the lack of stamina potions, seems excessive.  Rogues and warriors should regenerate stamina very quickly in combat so that they never 'run out of steam' like mages can.  They shouldn't even really need potions to recover their stamina.  Couple this with making lyrium potions less common, and they would be stronger while mages would have an appropriate, story-supported weakness - the scarcity of lyrium.

 
  Basically this.. The warrior and rogue though they have none of the fancy stuff the mage has can last indefinitely.. Where the mage is limited to short bursts of explosive powers and run out fast..  As it stands alot of spells are laughably cheap to the point that it feels like I am activating them more than a wariror or rogue is activating their abilities.,

[Kolaris8472]

Agreed that its rather ridiculous that Warriors exhaust themselves far faster than Magi...perhaps that's the real problem.



I have to say its nigh-game breaking how strong Mages are, as the game must be balanced around them. This leads to a strict scarcity of NPC Mages, meaning you've got to use Morrigan/Wynn every single playthrough (or lose them...)...really disappointing. And you NEED Mages, don't say otherwise. Even Easy mode is beyond frustrating if you don't have a Mage along.

[Devlen12]

Kwonne wrote...

Mages are very important yes, but i will try Nightmare with 3 Rogues and 1 War.

hope you plan to have ALOT of potions and all 3 rogues having Ranger for bears X.x

[Skemte]

Devlen12 wrote...

Kwonne wrote...

Mages are very important yes, but i will try Nightmare with 3 Rogues and 1 War.

hope you plan to have ALOT of potions and all 3 rogues having Ranger for bears X.x

  I think it will be impossible to fight the dragons in the game with them.. A grab/overwhelm by one will mean certain death usually..  Revnents with their aoe sword attacks will destroy him too.

[WillieStyle]

Koyasha wrote...

Devlen12 wrote...

The point thats being driven home here isnt the fact that yes mages are mystical, but so should the hero your playing thats a rogue.  noone wants to play nomrality thats why we are PLAYING an RPG and not out playing real life.  Im not saying nerf mages (dear god im afraid thats going to be a whole nother thread) im saying patch warriors and rogues for something more... unique than just a human with a weapon

But that's what they are.  If you make them something more than just a human with a weapon, then you're making them mages.  Or some other mystical class.  Which doesn't exist in the setting.  As I said, if you want to design a setting where these things are different, great.  But in this setting, normal warriors and rogues aren't anything more than people highly skilled in their particular type of combat, and are restricted by the laws of physics.

I will say that the stamina restriction, especially coupled with the lack of stamina potions, seems excessive.  Rogues and warriors should regenerate stamina very quickly in combat so that they never 'run out of steam' like mages can.  They shouldn't even really need potions to recover their stamina.  Couple this with making lyrium potions less common, and they would be stronger while mages would have an appropriate, story-supported weakness - the scarcity of lyrium.

WillieStyle wrote...

Oh god. The "realism" argument. By the "laws of physics" I should one-shot mages everyone by stabbing them in the back.

Fixed it for you.

I find it amusing that you've essentially conceded every point raised in this thread by someone arguing that mages are overpowered.

[Devlen12]

Im not so much arguing that they (edit) are a powerfull class (edit), im just bringing up that Rogues/Warriors need a little more thought to bring them up to par. And i swear if someone says blah blah mages are not par blah blah, your playing a hero and all heros should be something special and not below any other person that happens to be born a mage or what ever. Its a game not mystical real life so one class needs to be god

Modifié par Devlen12, 12 novembre 2009 - 06:03 .

[Mnemnosyne]

WillieStyle wrote...

I find it amusing that you've essentially conceded every point raised in this thread by someone arguing that mages are overpowered.

My viewpoint is that story and internal consistency of the story should balance every time (at least, in a single-player game).  If the story says mages are tremendously powerful, then they should be tremendously powerful.  If the story allows for some restrictions on that power (scarcity of lyrium) then it's reasonable to limit their power in that particular way.  If they weren't "overpowered" I would honestly complain that they should be because the story clearly makes them out to be.

On the other hand, if Warriors and Rogues aren't sufficiently fun to play because of the stamina restriction, then they need to have that restriction reduced.  It's a mechanic that doesn't even make much sense from a story viewpoint.  If I'm too tired to perform any of my special moves, then I should probably be too tired to fight at all, or at least, with any real effectiveness.  If I can still swing my sword and defend myself effectively, then using a specific technique instead of a normal swing shouldn't take inordinately more effort, certainly not so much more than I am somehow too exhausted to do it, but not too exhausted to keep fighting for another five minutes.  You know...just as long as I don't swing my sword in exactly this way, or aim my arrow at exactly that spot on the guy.  Definitely too much effort, there.

[Lughsan35]

Kylazin wrote...

The mage class can do everything the other classes can do.... better.

Incorrect.  they do it differently.

Mages get glyphs, rogues have traps of various types.  Mage g'd take mana, traps take time...

rogues can CC with stuns too...

And I am currently wondering if I can go  sans any mage soon ( I am in the tower and have to have wynne for that)

[Devlen12]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Kylazin wrote...

The mage class can do everything the other classes can do.... better.

Incorrect.  they do it differently.

Mages get glyphs, rogues have traps of various types.  Mage g'd take mana, traps take time...

rogues can CC with stuns too...

And I am currently wondering if I can go  sans any mage soon ( I am in the tower and have to have wynne for that)

I hate to tell you this, ive played a rogue to 19 and a mage to 17 and unless they do something for rogues and warriors you will never EVER ever ever ever ever *takes a breath* ever ever ever ever ever ever ever *Takes another breath* EVER.... you get the point..... be able to CC, DPS, Debuff, take damage, buff party members, ... or even romance (Had to go there) like a mage can

[Korva]

Zinras wrote...

As for the potion argument some people make, the same applies to warriors.

No, it does NOT. Because health is not the issue, stamina is -- and the fact that it is impossible to replenish while supposedly rare lyrium potions grow on trees and essentially give mages an unlimited power supply. A rogue or warrior is screwed in comparison. And that is exacerbated by the fact that mages can raise Willpower as a secondary stat right behind Magic, while the other classes can't.

My sword & board warrior has both Leliana for Song of Valor and Wynne for Regeneration, but both of these seem to have no noticeable effect (and if they do, a mage benefits of them as well). I noticed a few fights in which my character was somehow reduced to zero stamina by the enemy and for the rest of the fight didn't regain a single point despite having both these buffs on. Don't know if it was a bug, but it sure made her totally worthless. A mage just laughs and drinks some lyrium, nukes, drinks more, laughs more. It's stupid. Let mages be "uber" as the setting demands, but at least make the stamina versus mana replenishment fair.

Koyasha wrote...

On the other hand, if Warriors and Rogues aren't sufficiently fun to play because of the stamina restriction, then they need to have that restriction reduced.  It's a mechanic that doesn't even make much sense from a story viewpoint.

Agreed. And they do run dry fast. I love my warrior, but it can be frustrating sometimes, especially in the abovementioned cases of being bled dry somehow and not being able to do jack for the rest of the fight.

Modifié par Korva, 12 novembre 2009 - 09:12 .