30 réponses à ce sujet

[Bahlgan]

 This thread starter will be relatively quick, but I would like to incite a stream of ideas to brainstorm together and come up with a decent explanation to the ability to raise the dead from the ground and fight as an ally to the caster's side. My elven mage is a necromancer/pyromancer who invests his points into destroying his targets with the walking bomb and/or incinerating with fireball/inferno.

If I recall correctly, isn't it true, according to Dragon Age lore, that undead are not walking spirits inhabiting their bodies to rage and anger towards those who might have wrongfully slain them. Instead they are merely lifeless bodies possessed by demons (and very rarely spirits) sent to slay anything in sight.

Blood magic, on the other hand, is indicated as the very first and primal form of magic. This archetype of magic is one that requires sacrificing the lifeforce, often one's own, as well as whatever target the "practitioners" desire. In addition to the using of blood to fuel for this magic of carnage, blood magic can also involve the practice of summoning demons (maybe spirits too), since it was demons who originally taught them this dark art.

With this reminder in tact to all my community members, I wish you to discuss as the the mechanics behind summoning the undead, as a mage who invests into the spirit tree, and what it might have to do with the arts of summoning demons, brought to you by blood magic.

[RobRam10]

Actually it was the Old God Dumat who taught blood magic to the magisters of the Imperium .

[Bahlgan]

RobRam10 wrote...

Actually it was the Old God Dumat who taught blood magic to the magisters of the Imperium .

Still, what do you think on the relation between blood magic and necromancy?

[RobRam10]

Well you could say in the story sense that Blood Magic and Necromancy is the same since undead are demon/spirits possessing dead corpses I would say BM is more necro than the actual necromancy in DOA since with BM you can bind demons and spirits to anything or anyone.

[Last Darkness]

Kinda funny that Blood Magic is never listed as doing anything dealing with Necromancy Lore or Mechanics wise but Spirit School is detailed talking about Necromancy and its abilities are Necromantic.



Make sense anyways since Blood Magic dosnt really effect things that cant bleed/have no blood.



Theres more Forbidden Magic out there besides Necromancy.

(On a side note notice how theres never like Biomancy, the oppsite of Necromancer EVER spoken off in most fantasy settings?)



Hmmm taking from known science and some fantasy lore (Mass Effect is good for this) if you wanted the strongest magic, it would be manipulation of Dark Energy. Our Universe is something like 3/4ths Dark Energy so its plenty abundant.

[Bahlgan]

Last Darkness wrote...

Kinda funny that Blood Magic is never listed as doing anything dealing with Necromancy Lore or Mechanics wise but Spirit School is detailed talking about Necromancy and its abilities are Necromantic.

Make sense anyways since Blood Magic dosnt really effect things that cant bleed/have no blood.

Theres more Forbidden Magic out there besides Necromancy.
(On a side note notice how theres never like Biomancy, the oppsite of Necromancer EVER spoken off in most fantasy settings?)

Hmmm taking from known science and some fantasy lore (Mass Effect is good for this) if you wanted the strongest magic, it would be manipulation of Dark Energy. Our Universe is something like 3/4ths Dark Energy so its plenty abundant.

I wonder how dark matter works and if so how it can be manipulated in a fantasy RPG game. In Chrono Trigger (REALLY awesome game btw) the one character who was optional to get in the game possessed all basic forms of magic, which by itself made him a unique character, as well as his own element of dark magic.

His name was Magus, which would completely fit him, yet he was an individual who was no where restricted to magical combat, for he possessed a decent scythe to inflict damage on his targets. Now that I think of it, he heavily reminds me of the grim reaper lol

I believe that Necromancy, in my own opinion, is somewhat related to blood magic, though merely in the "Animate Dead" spell. Perhaps for the vast majority of lore, Necromancy is a completely different school than magic, or perhaps it is the one forbidden school that is not hugely frowned upon like it's big brother maleficarum.

Although as far as blood magic goes, the only thing different than what I expected the term to cover was that in this game blood magic doesn't infuriate targets or augment their prowess due to the loss of lifeforce. When I think blood magic, I also think of magic that corrupts.

[Last Darkness]

Bahlgan wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Kinda funny that Blood Magic is never listed as doing anything dealing with Necromancy Lore or Mechanics wise but Spirit School is detailed talking about Necromancy and its abilities are Necromantic.

Make sense anyways since Blood Magic dosnt really effect things that cant bleed/have no blood.

Theres more Forbidden Magic out there besides Necromancy.
(On a side note notice how theres never like Biomancy, the oppsite of Necromancer EVER spoken off in most fantasy settings?)

Hmmm taking from known science and some fantasy lore (Mass Effect is good for this) if you wanted the strongest magic, it would be manipulation of Dark Energy. Our Universe is something like 3/4ths Dark Energy so its plenty abundant.

I wonder how dark matter works and if so how it can be manipulated in a fantasy RPG game. In Chrono Trigger (REALLY awesome game btw) the one character who was optional to get in the game possessed all basic forms of magic, which by itself made him a unique character, as well as his own element of dark magic.

His name was Magus, which would completely fit him, yet he was an individual who was no where restricted to magical combat, for he possessed a decent scythe to inflict damage on his targets. Now that I think of it, he heavily reminds me of the grim reaper lol

I believe that Necromancy, in my own opinion, is somewhat related to blood magic, though merely in the "Animate Dead" spell. Perhaps for the vast majority of lore, Necromancy is a completely different school than magic, or perhaps it is the one forbidden school that is not hugely frowned upon like it's big brother maleficarum.

Although as far as blood magic goes, the only thing different than what I expected the term to cover was that in this game blood magic doesn't infuriate targets or augment their prowess due to the loss of lifeforce. When I think blood magic, I also think of magic that corrupts.

Ah yes Im very Familiar with Chrono trigger, its #3 on my list of greatest games of all time.  Its also the game that created the Scythe Wielding mage/bad ass in gaming culture. Good ole Magus/Janus

Hmmm Blood Magic dosnt really do necromancy type tuff UNLESS you force it. Im pretty sure you could soak a dead corpse in a caulron of blood so you can manipulate it with like blood control. But as far as Necromancy goes, blood magic is nothing like it. Blood Magic uses and manipulates primal life energy. Necromancy uses and manipulates death energy.   They are nothing alike.

[Bahlgan]

Last Darkness wrote...

Ah yes Im very Familiar with Chrono trigger, its #3 on my list of greatest games of all time.  Its also the game that created the Scythe Wielding mage/bad ass in gaming culture. Good ole Magus/Janus

Hmmm Blood Magic dosnt really do necromancy type tuff UNLESS you force it. Im pretty sure you could soak a dead corpse in a caulron of blood so you can manipulate it with like blood control. But as far as Necromancy goes, blood magic is nothing like it. Blood Magic uses and manipulates primal life energy. Necromancy uses and manipulates death energy.   They are nothing alike.

Perhaps. Then how do explain a necromancer controlling the undaed? With demons? His own manipulation? I believe that it is far fetched to say that they are nothing alike without claiming the differences in controlling the undead.

[rayzorium]

Blood Magic is defined only by its requirement of blood or life energy to cast. Animate Dead is simply a spell of the Spirit School. I agree with Darkness, and I think you may find following quote relevant. =)

From Codex Entry: The Four Schools of Magic: Spirit...

By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.

[Last Darkness]

Bahlgan wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Ah yes Im very Familiar with Chrono trigger, its #3 on my list of greatest games of all time.  Its also the game that created the Scythe Wielding mage/bad ass in gaming culture. Good ole Magus/Janus

Hmmm Blood Magic dosnt really do necromancy type tuff UNLESS you force it. Im pretty sure you could soak a dead corpse in a caulron of blood so you can manipulate it with like blood control. But as far as Necromancy goes, blood magic is nothing like it. Blood Magic uses and manipulates primal life energy. Necromancy uses and manipulates death energy.   They are nothing alike.

Perhaps. Then how do explain a necromancer controlling the undaed? With demons? His own manipulation? I believe that it is far fetched to say that they are nothing alike without claiming the differences in controlling the undead.

Depends on what approach to Necromancy your taking. Theres ways to animate the dead by means of spirits, music rythems, puppetry, mechanical, biological, recollection, mnemonic, and such. In Dragon Age Lore what they use spirit manipulation and in game mechanics they use spirit manipulation. Read the books and in depth knowledge about Fereleden and the Tevinter and look at the game resrouces for the Video and Tabletop versions. In the world of Thedas all the Undead are either Spirit Manipulations or Demon Possessed.
Now you cant generaly use Blood Magic on a Demon to force it to your bidding and posseses corpses for you(If it does work its likly the demon tricking you into thinking you have control) so your going to have to turn to teh Spirit school of magic.

NOW im not saying you cant be a Blood Mage and Specilise in Spirit Magic, Im just saying Blood Magic by itself is not Necromancy. Blood Magic is just Forbidden magic because it is powerful and it allows one to control others. Where have peole EVER seen actualy facts and lore in teh game that say its Necromancy?


Anyways besides Necromancy is amateur death magic anyways.

[Spartas Husky]

Anyone knows a game pc or otherwise where you can raise an army of dead minions.... this thread reminded me of Guild wars... oh the glory days of Minion raising... so fun.

[Bahlgan]

rayzorium wrote...

Blood Magic is defined only by its requirement of blood or life energy to cast. Animate Dead is simply a spell of the Spirit School. I agree with Darkness, and I think you may find following quote relevant. =)

From Codex Entry: The Four Schools of Magic: Spirit...

By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.

Perfect! I was wondering how the link between the two with Animate Dead was connected, or separated. So does that mean that Necromancy can involve in summoning demons, since Dragon Age's undead are controlled by demons?

[Homebound]

Bahlgan wrote...

rayzorium wrote...

Blood Magic is defined only by its requirement of blood or life energy to cast. Animate Dead is simply a spell of the Spirit School. I agree with Darkness, and I think you may find following quote relevant. =)

From Codex Entry: The Four Schools of Magic: Spirit...

By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.

Perfect! I was wondering how the link between the two with Animate Dead was connected, or separated. So does that mean that Necromancy can involve in summoning demons, since Dragon Age's undead are controlled by demons?

Yes.

It would take several mages or 1 Blood Mage with a human sacrifice to pull it off, but yes. It works. Hell, you can do it yourself in the Circle Library with those books and stuff.

Modifié par Just_mike, 17 août 2010 - 06:41 .

[Last Darkness]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Anyone knows a game pc or otherwise where you can raise an army of dead minions.... this thread reminded me of Guild wars... oh the glory days of Minion raising... so fun.

www.undeadknights.com/undeadknights/index.html
Played that recently pretty fun awesome game.

[Last Darkness]

Actualy after rethinking this over. Necromancy dosn't exist in Thedas as far as we know. I can find no mention of the terms Necromancer or Necromancy. So in this line I think we would ahve to metagame this and create the equivilent class. Mage with a heavy specilisation in the Spirit School and Secondary in the Entropy School. Spec Blood Mage to make those spells more powerful. After reviewing the spells I would have to say Spec would be a Blood Mage/Spirit Healer. You would have to roleplay that instead of healing energies they are manipulating darker energies for the spirit healer spells but they all fit very well.

Any disaggrement?

If not lets try and make a functional "Necromantic" build. Ill go first(Very rough outline with a character planner)

Race: Elf
class: Mage
Origen: Circle Mage
Name: Romero
Level: 25

"Putting the Romantic back into NecROMANTIC"

Specialisation: Blood Mage / Spirit Healer
Relevant Stats:
-Will = 20
-Magic = 70
-Con = 30

-Spells-
Blood Mage Tree
-Blood Magic
-Blood Sacrifice
-Blood Wound
-Blood Control

Spirit Healer tree
-Group Heal
-Revival

Spirit Tree
-Mana Drain
-Mana Clense
-Spell Might
-Mana Clash
-Walking Bomb
-Death Syphon
-Virulent Walking Bomb
-Animate Dead

Entropy Tree
-Vulnerability Hex
-Affliction Hex
-Drain Life

Creation Tree
-Spellwisp
-Grease
-Spellbloom
-Stinging Swarm

This Should leave you with at least 5 extra spell options of your choice (More with Tomes).
I favour grabbing the Telekinesis line of spells and arcane shield.
This is of course the Caster version, im sure you can also make a Necromantic Themed Deathknight Blood Mage / Arcane Warrior.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 17 août 2010 - 07:32 .

[mongo lloyd555]

Necromancy (which means 'dead body divination') is about raising the dead or a spirit in order to perform some sort of divination, and blood magic is about using someones blood to use magic. So I think they aren't very similar, really.

[Marbazoid]

I've always wondered what blood magic has to do with summoning demons? I remember there being mention of "Demonology" in game somewhere which refers to the specific study of summoning demons.



Tearing open the veil is no small feat, and I never thought it was possible for a mage to do it intentionally.

[ChaosRaident]

well in my opinion blood magic is necromancy, cuz in my experience in world of warcraft, the death knight is a necromancer warrior possesing unholy, frost and BLOOD skills so thats my opinion...

[Last Darkness]

ChaosRaident wrote...

well in my opinion blood magic is necromancy, cuz in my experience in world of warcraft, the death knight is a necromancer warrior possesing unholy, frost and BLOOD skills so thats my opinion...

Cept for the problem, this has nothing to do with WoW and I was a Blood Deathknight and none of the Blood Abilitys were Necromantic, it was the Unholy tree that was Necromantic.

Marbazoid wrote...

I've always wondered what blood magic
has to do with summoning demons? I remember there being mention of
"Demonology" in game somewhere which refers to the specific study of
summoning demons.

Tearing open the veil is no small feat, and I never thought it was possible for a mage to do it intentionally.

The only way to learn True Blood Magic in Dragonage is by having a demon teach it to you. You can learn a few tricks otherwise like Jowan(Though whos to say a Demon isnt whispering into his ear with all the bad deicisions hes making). As for demon summoning, thats actualy really easy from what we know. Demons are more then happy to come to physical world the problem is getting past the veil. Blood magic simply gives you enough power to break through the veil so demons can come through. Controling them is a hard prospect since your blood magic is basicaly demon magic that they are infinetly greater familiar with. Also of course you gotta fight being possessed and becoming a abomination alot when dealing with demons too.



In the world of Thedas the view is Blood Magic = Evil Demon Magic.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy Definition of Necromancy.
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Mage Blood Magic Wiki

Modifié par Last Darkness, 17 août 2010 - 01:56 .

[Bahlgan]

Any disaggrement?

I thought the Darkspawn Necromancer in RtO made it obvious.

Necromancy (which means 'dead body divination') is about raising the dead or a spirit in order to perform some sort of divination, and blood magic is about using someones blood to use magic. So I think they aren't very similar, really.

Again, think carefully. Blood magic is NOT restricted to merely consuming the lifeforce of your mage and/or allies to utilize offensive and augmented magic. Blood magic also summons demons; it's confirmed. Now, they are not the same, but they are similar, I dare say, just that Necromancy doesn't use lifeforce; but it does summon demons.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 17 août 2010 - 04:48 .

[Last Darkness]

Bahlgan wrote...

Any disaggrement?

I thought the Darkspawn Necromancer in RtO made it obvious.

Necromancy (which means 'dead body divination') is about raising the dead or a spirit in order to perform some sort of divination, and blood magic is about using someones blood to use magic. So I think they aren't very similar, really.

Again, think carefully. Blood magic is NOT restricted to merely consuming the lifeforce of your mage and/or allies to utilize offensive and augmented magic. Blood magic also summons demons; it's confirmed. Now, they are not the same, but they are similar, I dare say, just that Necromancy doesn't use lifeforce; but it does summon demons.

Well you got me there, that guys the exception to the rule on multiple fronts.
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Genlock_Necromancer
Genlocks are born from Dwarfs and so should Not be able to use magic technicaly so theres a exeception.
And the Necromancer still uses Frost, Spirit and Entropy spells. No blood magic.

As for your second comment, what part of demon summoning is necromancy? if you want to get really technical the only basis you can use is that you can summon a demon to inhabit/Posses a corpse/skeleton.

The more you argue this the more im becoming convinced you have no idea what Necromancy is or means, you give a very strong impression your idea is that Necromancy = All Forbidden Magic. Read the Definition of the term I posted a few posts back. I also posted Blood Magic wiki.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 18 août 2010 - 04:26 .

[Homebound]

For Blood Magic to work, the thing its being used on has to be ALIVE.

For Necromancy to work, the thing its being used on has to be DEAD.

[flixerflax]

Don't forget that you can always use your own blood.  So with blood magic active, you can still cast a spell like animate dead, while simply using your own blood as power.  So I see Blood magic is just an alternate power source for spells, as well as offering its own additional abilities, none of which affect corpses or spirits.

Modifié par flixerflax, 18 août 2010 - 09:28 .

[Last Darkness]

Seriusly am I the only one to post a build for a Nec-Romantic mage?

[Bahlgan]

Last Darkness wrote...

As for your second comment, what part of demon summoning is necromancy? if you want to get really technical the only basis you can use is that you can summon a demon to inhabit/Posses a corpse/skeleton.

Last time I checked, as far as Dragon Age, don't undead require spirits or demons to possess the bodies? 

The more you argue this the more im becoming convinced you have no idea what Necromancy is or means, you give a very strong impression your idea is that Necromancy = All Forbidden Magic. Read the Definition of the term I posted a few posts back. I also posted Blood Magic wiki.

If you think I don't know what Necromancy is because of the context in the title of the thread, let me assure you that tis not the case. Sure, at first, the title suggests that I am confusing the two, but I used it to attract crowds, sort of like a form of advertisement. Think about the newspapers and media: They will say anything to get attention.

I know very well what Necromancy means, thank you. What I am "arguing" about, (I wouldn't even consider it arguing as much as trying to open some minds here) is that Necromancy can also summon demons, according the Dragon Age lore. That is my own personal conclusion, and I myself am suggesting nothing more. As far as requiring blood, no I understand by that means it is no where near blood magic.

I guess my suspicions are true then, that they do summon spirits as well. Awesome.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 19 août 2010 - 04:59 .